If you want isolationism start eating and using the few things that Britain can produce independently. Also then your living standard will drop dramatically.
But if done on a European scale things would be somewhat differently. Yes it would mean money being diverted from the industrial north to the south and who knows parts of Greece, Spain. Italy and Portungal being declared enterprise zones or "European Parks of conservation" as part of that redistribution. No single country in Europe is big enough to compete globally on its own these days.
:yawn: Oh deary me, how does Australia a country of 20 million people cope in the world? Is it facing mass destruction as it doesn't belong to any sort of union?
Outside of the UK - I think that so many countries have lost faith in their own Politicians they would go for it.
Even within the UK there is a lack of faith in Politicians of all sides so when it came to the crunch of ensuring that Europe was run by the best from all of the countries that were democratically elected then folk may well be tempted.
Europe and Democracy don't go together at all. If they did then countries would be asking their people about what to join and what not to or whether to accept bailouts amongst other things.
Reason why I say it's undemocratic is because you can already see people saying we shouldn't hold a referendum on leaving the EU without an actual reason other that "it's the wrong time" or "we'd lose all trade". Of course those people are never going to say "let the people have a say", why do that when you already have what you want without us meddling public getting a voice.
We in this country may not be 100% behind our politicians or the whole system as a whole, however I don't think the majority of this nation will ever vote to lose them in favour of the alternative option from the people in EU.
That's absolute nonsense. The USA is a beacon of light and freedom and democracy. The EU is a dictatorship which needs dismantling. The USA has an elected president and although is made up of 50 states is one country. The EU has an unelected president Herman Van Friggin Rompoy who earns more than Barack Obama. Who is this man? I've never heard of him. What right does he have to attend the most recent G8 meeting representing 500 million Europeans?
If you had bothered to read my post you would have noted that I called for an elected President of Europe. Herman Van Rompoy is President of the European Council. Jose Manuel Barrossa is President of the European Commission. Both are distinct European institutions. In a Federal European Union you would only need one elected European President which would actually save money as some of the institutions could be streamlined and merged.
:yawn: Oh deary me, how does Australia a country of 20 million people cope in the world? Is it facing mass destruction as it doesn't belong to any sort of union?
And since when has Australia been in Europe? It is a Continent in its own right and does not naturally slot into any other region of the World. It can compete because of its natural resources and because of its relative low density of population.
And since when has Australia been in Europe? It is a Continent in its own right and does not naturally slot into any other region of the World. It can compete because of its natural resources and because of its relative low density of population.
Did I say Australia was in Europe? Stop perpetuating this myth that if we didn't belong to the anti democratic, backward looking and ineffective EU that life as we know it would stop. It won't.
Europe and Democracy don't go together at all. If they did then countries would be asking their people about what to join and what not to or whether to accept bailouts amongst other things.
Reason why I say it's undemocratic is because you can already see people saying we shouldn't hold a referendum on leaving the EU without an actual reason other that "it's the wrong time" or "we'd lose all trade". Of course those people are never going to say "let the people have a say", why do that when you already have what you want without us meddling public getting a voice.
We in this country may not be 100% behind our politicians or the whole system as a whole, however I don't think the majority of this nation will ever vote to lose them in favour of the alternative option from the people in EU.
The whole point though is for the EU to work it needs to be Federal and democratic. I am arguing for a democratically elected European President, a European Parliament with fixed Pan European party groupings and manifestos with legislative powers with the Council of Europe made up of the democratically elected heads of States as present with powers to agree appointments to the other European Institutions such as the ECB and ECJ by way of example.
If the systems were changed then views in this country on Europe may change.
Did I say Australia was in Europe? Stop perpetuating this myth that if we didn't belong to the anti democratic, backward looking and ineffective EU that life as we know it would stop. It won't.
Please read my posts. I said No single country in Europe can compete globally these days. You cite Australia as an example of a country that can. Australia is not in Europe so your example is not valid.
I am calling for a Federal Europe with elected institutions. It is what is required if the Eurozone is to have a single fiscal policy if it is to survive which is what this debate is all about.
If the European Union had a democratically elected President and Parliament running the show then your objection that the EU is undemocratic would become invalid.
You don't like what the EU has become - neither do I BUT I am pro Europe and want the EU to become a democratic Federation as I feel that the alternative of a break up going back to a Free trade area would mean that the last 50 years of building up the European identity has been a waste of time and effort and could lead eventually to future conflict in Europe as our national differences and xenophobia rather than our European similarities come to the fore.
Unfortunately there is no leader willing to stand up and call for this but Cameron and Obama and others have called for the EU to get its act together and others are calling for a single fiscal policy. It naturally follows that you cannot have one without a Federal Europe and you cannot have a Federal Europe without democracy. Some might try it but I will be shouting at them far louder than you would be.
Did I say Australia was in Europe? Stop perpetuating this myth that if we didn't belong to the anti democratic, backward looking and ineffective EU that life as we know it would stop. It won't.
The true power lies in the undemocratic financial system.
Your government can stop the EU if it wanted it can't stop the global financial system.
No EU directive was ever as mad as the banking bs..
But keep on fighting the toe while the head will eat you..
What baffles me is how anyone can believe any more that the bunch behind running the euro and 'saving' it would be any good whatsoever at running a 'federal EU'. Whatever happens to the euro (and I think disaster is most likely), this has all spelled an end (thank God) to this European supersate dream, which anyway was about as democratic as Stalinist Russia.
The euro has always been a disaster, hence the reasons for Eurozone members using all sorts of ploys to circumnavigate the rules.
So when the Eurozone collapses in the next few months, the UK will be going down too ?
The Economist forecase a possible 10% contraction in the economy. A re-run of the 2008-2009 recession.
We are f****d no matter what happens, as for the eurozone their problem, they fudged the rules so screw them, the sovereignty of the UK is more important that stupid ideas of coming together to help one another in a united states of europe.
If i have to live my life by rules and laws then i desire them to be made in the uk.
Also federalism in the eurozone actually suits the labour/tories to at T because they know they can never win a referenda on further integration if that was the outcome. As for Ireland, federalism will not sit sweetly with them as they will view it as another forced union where they will see their country run from the bundestag/brussels. Even the SNP in an independent Scotland will boak at the idea f another political/fiscal union.
Neither of which is going to pay the bills, or make sure there's money in your cashpoint machine.
David Cameron could well do without another British panic Northern Rock style.
We have money and its not in any bank, a reserve is kept in a safe place since 2008, enough to last for a year at least, apologies if my last post seemed a bit harsh, no malice was intended in your direction.
We are f****d no matter what happens, as for the eurozone their problem, they fudged the rules so screw them, the sovereignty of the UK is more important that stupid ideas of coming together to help one another in a united states of europe.
If i have to live my life by rules and laws then i desire them to be made in the uk.
Also federalism in the eurozone actually suits the labour/tories to at T because they know they can never win a referenda on further integration if that was the outcome. As for Ireland federalism will not sit sweetly with them as they will view it as another forced union where they will see their country run from the bundestag/brussels.
Agreed.
The Eurozone is going to collapse. So here in the UK, we can expect some or all of the following:
More Northern Rock panic bank runs
Another RBS type bank teerting on the verge of collapse
The Bank of England printing unlimited amounts of new money
Further spending cuts and tax rises
Companies failures
More unemployment
Further drop in British living standards
Panic buying as saw with petrol recently
Social or
industrial unrest
Regardless of where laws effecting Britain are actually made, British politicians will be less concerned with referenda and more worried about explaining the ever greater misery to the British public.
At which point, might be time to dust down the UK Civil Contigency Act 2004 and for a British minister to call a state of emergency. Put troops on the streets,food and power rationining, limit access to banks, that kind of thing.
We have money and its not in any bank, a reserve is kept in a safe place since 2008, enough to last for a year at least, apologies if my last post seemed a bit harsh, no malice was intended in your direction.
No worries.
Yes, we will always have money. The Bank of England will print as much new money as is needed to stop British banks from collapsing.
The Eurozone is going to collapse. So here in the UK, we can expect some or all of the following:
More Northern Rock panic bank runs
Another RBS type bank teerting on the verge of collapse
The Bank of England printing unlimited amounts of new money
Further spending cuts and tax rises
Companies failures
More unemployment
Further drop in British living standards
Panic buying as saw with petrol recently
Social or
industrial unrest
Regardless of where laws effecting Britain are actually made, British politicians will be less concerned with referenda and more worried about explaining the ever greater misery to the British public.
At which point, might be time to dust down the UK Civil Contigency Act 2004 and for a British minister to call a state of emergency. Put troops on the streets,food and power rationining, limit access to banks, that kind of thing.
Stocking up on corned beef and Krugerrands as we speak. Must clear out the old Anderson shelter and dust off my copy of Protect and Survive. Wonder what I can get for one of the wifes kidneys on ebay.
The Eurozone is going to collapse. So here in the UK, we can expect some or all of the following:
More Northern Rock panic bank runs
Another RBS type bank teerting on the verge of collapse
The Bank of England printing unlimited amounts of new money
Further spending cuts and tax rises
Companies failures
More unemployment
Further drop in British living standards
Panic buying as saw with petrol recently
Social or
industrial unrest
Regardless of where laws effecting Britain are actually made, British politicians will be less concerned with referenda and more worried about explaining the ever greater misery to the British public.
At which point, might be time to dust down the UK Civil Contigency Act 2004 and for a British minister to call a state of emergency. Put troops on the streets,food and power rationining, limit access to banks, that kind of thing.
I can't tell whether or not this post is genuine or sarcastic.
The Euro isn't going to collapse, people have been saying that over and over again for the past few years and it hasn't happened. It's currently going through a rough patch (like any currency) but in a few years time it will most likely be stronger than ever (like any currency).
The Euro isn't going to collapse. It's currently going through a rough patch (like any currency) but in a few years time it will most likely be stronger than ever.
Fingers crossed. I do hope so. Because it will be better than my miserable list of depressing bullet points (see above).
Stocking up on corned beef and Krugerrands as we speak. Must clear out the old Anderson shelter and dust off my copy of Protect and Survive. Wonder what I can get for one of the wifes kidneys on ebay.
A little over the top.
When the Euro collapses, expect the British government to do whatever it takes to ensure there's food in the supermarkets, cash in the banks for you to withdraw, enough petrol and running water, gas and electricity.
Even if that does mean declaring a state of emergency.
The Eurozone is going to collapse. So here in the UK, we can expect some or all of the following:
More Northern Rock panic bank runs
Another RBS type bank teerting on the verge of collapse
The Bank of England printing unlimited amounts of new money
Further spending cuts and tax rises
Companies failures
More unemployment
Further drop in British living standards
Panic buying as saw with petrol recently
Social or
industrial unrest
Regardless of where laws effecting Britain are actually made, British politicians will be less concerned with referenda and more worried about explaining the ever greater misery to the British public.
At which point, might be time to dust down the UK Civil Contigency Act 2004 and for a British minister to call a state of emergency. Put troops on the streets,food and power rationining, limit access to banks, that kind of thing.
but some of your points you have listed will also happen to every EU country, not just us.
I can't tell whether or not this post is genuine or sarcastic.
The Euro isn't going to collapse, people have been saying that over and over again for the past few years and it hasn't happened. It's currently going through a rough patch (like any currency) but in a few years time it will most likely be stronger than ever (like any currency).
rough patch? that's the understatement of the year:D.
quote:
'but in a few years time it will most likely be stronger than ever'.
guesswork and assumption.
Comments
Europe and Democracy don't go together at all. If they did then countries would be asking their people about what to join and what not to or whether to accept bailouts amongst other things.
Reason why I say it's undemocratic is because you can already see people saying we shouldn't hold a referendum on leaving the EU without an actual reason other that "it's the wrong time" or "we'd lose all trade". Of course those people are never going to say "let the people have a say", why do that when you already have what you want without us meddling public getting a voice.
We in this country may not be 100% behind our politicians or the whole system as a whole, however I don't think the majority of this nation will ever vote to lose them in favour of the alternative option from the people in EU.
If you had bothered to read my post you would have noted that I called for an elected President of Europe. Herman Van Rompoy is President of the European Council. Jose Manuel Barrossa is President of the European Commission. Both are distinct European institutions. In a Federal European Union you would only need one elected European President which would actually save money as some of the institutions could be streamlined and merged.
And since when has Australia been in Europe? It is a Continent in its own right and does not naturally slot into any other region of the World. It can compete because of its natural resources and because of its relative low density of population.
Did I say Australia was in Europe? Stop perpetuating this myth that if we didn't belong to the anti democratic, backward looking and ineffective EU that life as we know it would stop. It won't.
The whole point though is for the EU to work it needs to be Federal and democratic. I am arguing for a democratically elected European President, a European Parliament with fixed Pan European party groupings and manifestos with legislative powers with the Council of Europe made up of the democratically elected heads of States as present with powers to agree appointments to the other European Institutions such as the ECB and ECJ by way of example.
If the systems were changed then views in this country on Europe may change.
Please read my posts. I said No single country in Europe can compete globally these days. You cite Australia as an example of a country that can. Australia is not in Europe so your example is not valid.
I am calling for a Federal Europe with elected institutions. It is what is required if the Eurozone is to have a single fiscal policy if it is to survive which is what this debate is all about.
If the European Union had a democratically elected President and Parliament running the show then your objection that the EU is undemocratic would become invalid.
You don't like what the EU has become - neither do I BUT I am pro Europe and want the EU to become a democratic Federation as I feel that the alternative of a break up going back to a Free trade area would mean that the last 50 years of building up the European identity has been a waste of time and effort and could lead eventually to future conflict in Europe as our national differences and xenophobia rather than our European similarities come to the fore.
Unfortunately there is no leader willing to stand up and call for this but Cameron and Obama and others have called for the EU to get its act together and others are calling for a single fiscal policy. It naturally follows that you cannot have one without a Federal Europe and you cannot have a Federal Europe without democracy. Some might try it but I will be shouting at them far louder than you would be.
The true power lies in the undemocratic financial system.
Your government can stop the EU if it wanted it can't stop the global financial system.
No EU directive was ever as mad as the banking bs..
But keep on fighting the toe while the head will eat you..
The euro has always been a disaster, hence the reasons for Eurozone members using all sorts of ploys to circumnavigate the rules.
Quite possibly.
If the Eurozone goes down, the UK goes down too.
This is why David Cameron is worried and in talks with Angela Merkel today. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18343164
Hooray,hooray,hooray miserys on the way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCZCv98XKFs&feature=fvwrel
No sovereignty of the nation and its ability to run its own affair is paramount, Federalism will cause war.
Absolutely. Things will get worse, before they get worse.
We are f****d no matter what happens, as for the eurozone their problem, they fudged the rules so screw them, the sovereignty of the UK is more important that stupid ideas of coming together to help one another in a united states of europe.
If i have to live my life by rules and laws then i desire them to be made in the uk.
Also federalism in the eurozone actually suits the labour/tories to at T because they know they can never win a referenda on further integration if that was the outcome. As for Ireland, federalism will not sit sweetly with them as they will view it as another forced union where they will see their country run from the bundestag/brussels. Even the SNP in an independent Scotland will boak at the idea f another political/fiscal union.
We have money and its not in any bank, a reserve is kept in a safe place since 2008, enough to last for a year at least, apologies if my last post seemed a bit harsh, no malice was intended in your direction.
Agreed.
The Eurozone is going to collapse. So here in the UK, we can expect some or all of the following:
industrial unrest
Regardless of where laws effecting Britain are actually made, British politicians will be less concerned with referenda and more worried about explaining the ever greater misery to the British public.
At which point, might be time to dust down the UK Civil Contigency Act 2004 and for a British minister to call a state of emergency. Put troops on the streets,food and power rationining, limit access to banks, that kind of thing.
No worries.
Yes, we will always have money. The Bank of England will print as much new money as is needed to stop British banks from collapsing.
Stocking up on corned beef and Krugerrands as we speak. Must clear out the old Anderson shelter and dust off my copy of Protect and Survive. Wonder what I can get for one of the wifes kidneys on ebay.
I can't tell whether or not this post is genuine or sarcastic.
The Euro isn't going to collapse, people have been saying that over and over again for the past few years and it hasn't happened. It's currently going through a rough patch (like any currency) but in a few years time it will most likely be stronger than ever (like any currency).
Genuine.
Fingers crossed. I do hope so. Because it will be better than my miserable list of depressing bullet points (see above).
A little over the top.
When the Euro collapses, expect the British government to do whatever it takes to ensure there's food in the supermarkets, cash in the banks for you to withdraw, enough petrol and running water, gas and electricity.
Even if that does mean declaring a state of emergency.
but some of your points you have listed will also happen to every EU country, not just us.
rough patch? that's the understatement of the year:D.
quote:
'but in a few years time it will most likely be stronger than ever'.
guesswork and assumption.
Yes.
As George Osborne said "we are all in this together". By that, he actually meant every European country is in this mess together.
So when the euro collapses, the UK will go down too. See my earlier points for what to expect in the UK and the rest of Europe.
Merkel caved in.. She is now for a fiscal union and a Europe of to speeds.
A large proportion of the German commentators accuse her of treason..
The article also says Britain and the USA want immediate solutions, so they must have agreed to that.
Spain has successfully refinanced
German Opposition and government parties seemed to have agreed to FTT and a Fiscal pact..
So as far I understand it the Euro is getting pressed through leaving weaker States behind.
Yesterday the Germans were treated to first reports how the system can live without Greece.
Since the world wide financial system is choking on the the debt money these are just stages to delay the collapse.
A rather alarmist and ott view.