This post does some up everything I was going to say...
I just look at my brother who is classed as a handicapped child. He is 15 but mentally ranges from 2 - 11 years depending on tasks, etc. Doesn't talk either.
It actually upsets me, knowing the way he is, It seems such an unfair life (and I know life is supposed to be unfair) but a life where you can't go about as a normal teenage boy, can't communicate properly - only using screaming, crying and often violence as a way of 'talking', wearing nappies, needed one-to-one care.
That's not a real life, its controlled, maybe for the right reasons, but it makes me sad, I wouldn't ever wish it upon anyone, and for that, I think if it was possible to discover any disability/brain damage/handicap before a child is born, I believe termination/abortion is a good option.
Knowing that a child will be born with severe brain damage and then going ahead with the pregnancy is cruel beyond belief. What you're effectively doing is condemning an innocent child to a life of misery.
I'm guessing you don't suffer from severe brain damage as mentioned in the OP, and the question I answered. I notice you're able to use a computer, type, or speak, a coherent sentence and take part in a rational debate, so I assume you're not lying there in a persistent vegetative state.
I was born 12 weeks premature, and spent the first 3 months of my life in an incubator. I was slow at learning to walk, didn't manage to until I was nearly 4 years old, but quite bright in other areas (reading for instance)
At the age of eight years old - I was diagnosed as having mild cerebral palsy which mostly affected my lower limbs.
Then when I was 13 I had surgery on my spine, it didn't work properly and I ended up in a wheelchair - but that didn't stop me having a full life. I passed several GSCEs and went to college. I have had several full time jobs, and been married.
I have a friend who has a severer form of cerebral palsy - she cannot use her hands, or walk, she also has a mild speech defect. Despite this, she has represented her country at the Paralympics, and won gold medals. She lives independently, has been to college and worked full time
There are so many degrees of brain damage and it is very difficult to diagnose before birth - I really couldn't say aborting a baby is a good or bad thing.
I just know that having a disability is not something that stops you from having a life - it just throws up a few more challenges now and then.
This post does some up everything I was going to say...
I just look at my brother who is classed as a handicapped child. He is 15 but mentally ranges from 2 - 11 years depending on tasks, etc. Doesn't talk either.
It actually upsets me, knowing the way he is, It seems such an unfair life (and I know life is supposed to be unfair) but a life where you can't go about as a normal teenage boy, can't communicate properly - only using screaming, crying and often violence as a way of 'talking', wearing nappies, needed one-to-one care.
That's not a real life, its controlled, maybe for the right reasons, but it makes me sad, I wouldn't ever wish it upon anyone, and for that, I think if it was possible to discover any disability/brain damage/handicap before a child is born, I believe termination/abortion is a good option.
I work with 3 year old twin boys who have cerebral palsy. One has been walking since early this year. The other has a frame. The doctors said neither of them would ever walk.
frankly you're way of thinking is too straight forward for me.
Louise-Ann I really feel for you and your brother's quality of life does sound very inhibited. I don't know how he came to be so disabled, but in my own son's case he was born perfectly healthy and became disabled following an illness shortly after birth.
Not every case can be foreseen ante-natally or through tests.
Initially we were despairing especially in the early days with such a poor prognosis, and life looked very depressing, but we determined to do the best we could and got every assistance we could afford. Within a couple of years it was clear that so much more was possible for him to achieve.
Having said that though, caring for a disabled child does put a huge strain on a family in financial and emotional terms. Our house had to be altered to allow for a wheelchair and equipment to bath him and get him upstairs, I had to give up a promising career to take care of him when he was little, there are activities we can't do and places we just can't go as a family because they're not accessible.
In the grand scheme of what other people like you and yours deal with though that is a drop in the ocean.
Often life seems very unfair and it hasn't been a bed of roses but I am lucky to have a strong marriage and a support network. I have often worried that too much attention is sometimes given to my son over and above his siblings though.
I have huge respect and admiration for families like yours who cope with so much more than we do on a daily basis. My son will grow up educationally and emotionally and I appreciate how lucky he is to be able to do that.
This post does some up everything I was going to say...
I just look at my brother who is classed as a handicapped child. He is 15 but mentally ranges from 2 - 11 years depending on tasks, etc. Doesn't talk either.
It actually upsets me, knowing the way he is, It seems such an unfair life (and I know life is supposed to be unfair) but a life where you can't go about as a normal teenage boy, can't communicate properly - only using screaming, crying and often violence as a way of 'talking', wearing nappies, needed one-to-one care.
That's not a real life, its controlled, maybe for the right reasons, but it makes me sad, I wouldn't ever wish it upon anyone, and for that, I believe termination/abortion is a good option think if it was possible to discover any disability/brain damage/handicap before a child is born.
Your post has actually upset me .I worked all my life with sick and disabled children , spina bifida , cerebral palsey , epilepsy , brain damage from a traumatic birth and many syndromes and multiple health problems . I cannot believe anyone would dismiss these gorgeous children as abortable or less entitled to share our lives .
They were a sheer pleasure to nurse , a joy to be with and the love their parents and familes had for them was inspirational .I am sorry your brother has such problems but the scale of brain damage is so wide that I am saddened to think your perspective is so distorted by his rare case .
Do you honestly think a funny , kind , gentle and wonderful little girl who happens to be in a wheelchair and has a shunt in her brain for hydrocephalus should have been aborted because she is not perfect ,?
This is a very difficult question to answer as another poster has said there are too many variables.. & also i guess they can never really tell sometimes just how handicapped a child might be.
i think though that if it i was due to have a baby who would be very severely brain damaged then i think i would choose to abort, it would be an extremely hard thing to decide, but i do personally think it is cruel to bring a baby into the world who will possibly have a very poor quality of life.
However..
I myself am currently just over 5 months pregnant & i chose to have the nuchal fold scan to detect downs syndrome, my results came back as a chance of 1 in 99,000, i can't for sure say i would have aborted had it come back any differently as i really don't know if i could make that decision to go through the traumatic experience of having a termination.
I was so worried that something might be wrong when i went for my 20 week scan, as you never know what you might do if the Dr's say something is wrong with the baby.
I think i would only abort at that stage if it was pretty certain that the baby would be severely disabled, as it must be awful to go through with a termination at such a late stage.
Your post has actually upset me .I worked all my life with sick and disabled children , spina bifida , cerebral palsey , epilepsy , brain damage from a traumatic birth and many syndromes and multiple health problems . I cannot believe anyone would dismiss these gorgeous children as abortable or less entitled to share our lives .
They were a sheer pleasure to nurse , a joy to be with and the love their parents and familes had for them was inspirational .I am sorry your brother has such problems but the scale of brain damage is so wide that I am saddened to think your perspective is so distorted by his rare case .
Do you honestly think a funny , kind , gentle and wonderful little girl who happens to be in a wheelchair and has a shunt in her brain for hydrocephalus should have been aborted because she is not perfect ,?
It's sad to hear. The worst part is the poster has a genuine reason for feeling that way.
I can't stand people who just assume it's a kindness to abort babies with a disability. It's the mother's choice to make. Nobody, should make a person feel bad, for making either choice in this situation.
whoever said that the woman is being cruel to bring a child into this world, that is less than perfect. maybe shouldn't have been brought into this world themselves.
If the state is expected to provide support, then should the state have some say in it?
Or should anyone who makes that sole decision be excluded from state assitance?
And where is the father in all of this - do they not get a say in the matter?
Sometimes nobody gets a say, disability can go undetected, can occur after birth or can happen at the time of birth. Even those that are "diagnosed" before birth can be misdiagnosed anyway.
I have no idea how you would begin to allow the state to have a say in who should have a right to live or die, that way lies eugenics which is very dangerous ground indeed.
Disabled people do have as much right to life as neurologically and physically typical people and are capable of contributing fully to and enhancing society.
I don't know if you have read my previous post about my son but every club he's been involved in, every school and nursery he's attended have all initially had reservations about his condition and abilities. Give them a month or two and none would ever be without him and are thankful to have known him.
Uncertainty and fear surround the disabled until you actually have experience, empathy and understanding.
I would wager that any parent of a disabled child would prefer that it had never happened to their child, but it does not diminish our love or capacity to care. As I said previously my son has brought so much to our family that I would now not change a single day. Yes it would be fabulous if he could walk, run and play like other children but he can't and I have a gorgeous child who is what he is and is all the more wonderful for it.
If the state is expected to provide support, then should the state have some say in it?
Or should anyone who makes that sole decision be excluded from state assitance?
And where is the father in all of this - do they not get a say in the matter?
Yes the state should help. why should they have a say in this matter at all? They would pay if someone broke their back and needed money.
The issue is, the mother isn't deciding to have a disabled child, they are deciding not to abort the child. It may amount to the same thing. But also it doesn't.
The father can have their say, but in no legal sense of the word. And why should they? You can't force someone into having an abortion.
Maybe you would like to. But I don't think it should ever be legal.
Just because the child is brain damaged, it doesn't mean it will live a miserable life. I have a second cousin with severe learning disabilities, but he is the happiest, most cheerful person you could ever meet. He has a great quality of life, finds enjoyment in the simplest of things and brings happiness to everyone around him.
Ultimately, it is up to the parents in question, but it really is no one else's business what option they take and no one has the right to judge. No one knows until they have walked in those shoes etc.
If the state is expected to provide support, then should the state have some say in it?
Or should anyone who makes that sole decision be excluded from state assitance?
And where is the father in all of this - do they not get a say in the matter?
A right that I don't have a problem with. and if a percentage of my taxes goes to help families with disabled children, and schools, and equipment. then it's money well spent.
Maybe we should stop giving treatment to elderly people. It's a right that affects us all. perhaps they shouldn't have a right, because they'll die soon anyway. :rolleyes:
A person is a person. It's the child that has the right to be cared for, not the mother that made the decision. she gets the help for the child.
I honestly don't know what to say, but whatever this woman's choice is, no one has the right to judge her, it's her body and I can see why she wouldn't want the child to live an unhappy life without having the capability of being able to look after themsleves, it's a terrible situation
Everyone here is saying it's ultimately the mothers choice, but doesn't the father have a say in this?
And after the mother has exercised her 'right' to have it who is going to foot the bill for a lifetime of care?
While some might perceive it as the mothers right, it is society who will pick up the tab for her selfish act of 'must have a baby at any cost and sod the kids life'.
Absolutely. Some very archaic views and the term 'handicapped' in the thread title makes me uncomfortable.
How can anyone predict the severity of a disability whilst the child is in utero? And what about post natal disabilities? Premature babies often have disabilities from being born too soon, should they not be allowed to live? Or children who become disabled through illness or injury?
I couldn't agree more Janism. I met an incredible lady that is the foster carer for 5 children with profound and multiple disabiitities and seeing the special bond between them was just so lovely. One of the children was unable to speak or feed himself, nor could he walk...but his eyes and his smile, his facial expressions..all showed so much emotion and so much joy. It was a pleasure to be able to meet the family and they just proved that you don't have to be able to do all of the things we take for granted to have a good quality of life.
I'm sure she's a wondeful carer, but where are the children's parents? Very profoundly disabled people break healthy people, destroy family, destroy any semblance of ordinary life.
But I did see something touching once - a young man in a wheelchair parked outide a shop. His face was distorted and he twitched= then his Mum came out of the shop and he got all excited and waved about and smiled - and suddenly he was beautiful.
I;m so glad I never had to make a decision like the OPs friend.
This is a sensitive subject, but I hope we can have a mature discussion on it.
A work colleague has a friend who is pregnant with a child who is expected to be severely brain damaged. She want to go ahead and have the baby regardless of this.
My colleague's opinion is that it would be better not to bring a brain damaged child into the world. It's very sad, but what is the point in bringing into the world someone who'll never be able to look after their self or live a normal life? They'll probably get picked on, probably live an uncomfortable existence, etc.
I tend to agree with this viewpoint, but it's a difficult dilemma.
What is your opinion?
Well obviously it's up to the individual concerned, and I don't feel morally qualified to pass judgement on them.
All I can say is that if it was me, I'd abort as it would be abundantly clear that the child would face a short life of very low quality.
Doctors aren't always right. It's quite rare nowadays with all the tests, scans etc BUT the baby could still be OK and only the parents can make that decision.
My friend had her first baby at 34. As the pregnancy progressed she felt uneasy and voiced her concerns and she was told as she was very healthy and super fit they didn't feel she needed an amnio test. Her baby was born with Down's syndrome which was a massive shock but they're a lovely family.
When was this? As far as I was aware, all women are now given a NT scan at 12 weeks which gives them an indication of whether an amnio as needed.
If the state is expected to provide support, then should the state have some say in it?Or should anyone who makes that sole decision be excluded from state assitance?
No. You're promoting the nazi eugenics programme if you support that.
I would abort....even though I have had years of struggle to get pregnant, I don't think it's fair on either the child or parent to bring a severely disabled being into the world
When was this? As far as I was aware, all women are now given a NT scan at 12 weeks which gives them an indication of whether an amnio as needed.
NT is for spina bifida I thought?....the AFP test can give you a risk indicator, but Downs is one of those things that can come from the best of tests and scans.
Amnio increases risk of miscarriage... at my age I would ask for an amnio anyway, or if I was in an area where it was available - CV
The quality of a disabled persons life can depend on the quality of the care on offer. If parents feel they either can't or don't want to care for a disabled child, then I can understand that they would tell themselves that it is "kinder" to abort it.
Comments
Wow....
I was born 12 weeks premature, and spent the first 3 months of my life in an incubator. I was slow at learning to walk, didn't manage to until I was nearly 4 years old, but quite bright in other areas (reading for instance)
At the age of eight years old - I was diagnosed as having mild cerebral palsy which mostly affected my lower limbs.
Then when I was 13 I had surgery on my spine, it didn't work properly and I ended up in a wheelchair - but that didn't stop me having a full life. I passed several GSCEs and went to college. I have had several full time jobs, and been married.
I have a friend who has a severer form of cerebral palsy - she cannot use her hands, or walk, she also has a mild speech defect. Despite this, she has represented her country at the Paralympics, and won gold medals. She lives independently, has been to college and worked full time
There are so many degrees of brain damage and it is very difficult to diagnose before birth - I really couldn't say aborting a baby is a good or bad thing.
I just know that having a disability is not something that stops you from having a life - it just throws up a few more challenges now and then.
I work with 3 year old twin boys who have cerebral palsy. One has been walking since early this year. The other has a frame. The doctors said neither of them would ever walk.
frankly you're way of thinking is too straight forward for me.
Not every case can be foreseen ante-natally or through tests.
Initially we were despairing especially in the early days with such a poor prognosis, and life looked very depressing, but we determined to do the best we could and got every assistance we could afford. Within a couple of years it was clear that so much more was possible for him to achieve.
Having said that though, caring for a disabled child does put a huge strain on a family in financial and emotional terms. Our house had to be altered to allow for a wheelchair and equipment to bath him and get him upstairs, I had to give up a promising career to take care of him when he was little, there are activities we can't do and places we just can't go as a family because they're not accessible.
In the grand scheme of what other people like you and yours deal with though that is a drop in the ocean.
Often life seems very unfair and it hasn't been a bed of roses but I am lucky to have a strong marriage and a support network. I have often worried that too much attention is sometimes given to my son over and above his siblings though.
I have huge respect and admiration for families like yours who cope with so much more than we do on a daily basis. My son will grow up educationally and emotionally and I appreciate how lucky he is to be able to do that.
Your post has actually upset me .I worked all my life with sick and disabled children , spina bifida , cerebral palsey , epilepsy , brain damage from a traumatic birth and many syndromes and multiple health problems . I cannot believe anyone would dismiss these gorgeous children as abortable or less entitled to share our lives .
They were a sheer pleasure to nurse , a joy to be with and the love their parents and familes had for them was inspirational .I am sorry your brother has such problems but the scale of brain damage is so wide that I am saddened to think your perspective is so distorted by his rare case .
Do you honestly think a funny , kind , gentle and wonderful little girl who happens to be in a wheelchair and has a shunt in her brain for hydrocephalus should have been aborted because she is not perfect ,?
i think though that if it i was due to have a baby who would be very severely brain damaged then i think i would choose to abort, it would be an extremely hard thing to decide, but i do personally think it is cruel to bring a baby into the world who will possibly have a very poor quality of life.
However..
I myself am currently just over 5 months pregnant & i chose to have the nuchal fold scan to detect downs syndrome, my results came back as a chance of 1 in 99,000, i can't for sure say i would have aborted had it come back any differently as i really don't know if i could make that decision to go through the traumatic experience of having a termination.
I was so worried that something might be wrong when i went for my 20 week scan, as you never know what you might do if the Dr's say something is wrong with the baby.
I think i would only abort at that stage if it was pretty certain that the baby would be severely disabled, as it must be awful to go through with a termination at such a late stage.
It's sad to hear. The worst part is the poster has a genuine reason for feeling that way.
I can't stand people who just assume it's a kindness to abort babies with a disability. It's the mother's choice to make. Nobody, should make a person feel bad, for making either choice in this situation.
whoever said that the woman is being cruel to bring a child into this world, that is less than perfect. maybe shouldn't have been brought into this world themselves.
And yet a right that impacts us all.
If the state is expected to provide support, then should the state have some say in it?
Or should anyone who makes that sole decision be excluded from state assitance?
And where is the father in all of this - do they not get a say in the matter?
Sometimes nobody gets a say, disability can go undetected, can occur after birth or can happen at the time of birth. Even those that are "diagnosed" before birth can be misdiagnosed anyway.
I have no idea how you would begin to allow the state to have a say in who should have a right to live or die, that way lies eugenics which is very dangerous ground indeed.
Disabled people do have as much right to life as neurologically and physically typical people and are capable of contributing fully to and enhancing society.
I don't know if you have read my previous post about my son but every club he's been involved in, every school and nursery he's attended have all initially had reservations about his condition and abilities. Give them a month or two and none would ever be without him and are thankful to have known him.
Uncertainty and fear surround the disabled until you actually have experience, empathy and understanding.
I would wager that any parent of a disabled child would prefer that it had never happened to their child, but it does not diminish our love or capacity to care. As I said previously my son has brought so much to our family that I would now not change a single day. Yes it would be fabulous if he could walk, run and play like other children but he can't and I have a gorgeous child who is what he is and is all the more wonderful for it.
Yes the state should help. why should they have a say in this matter at all? They would pay if someone broke their back and needed money.
The issue is, the mother isn't deciding to have a disabled child, they are deciding not to abort the child. It may amount to the same thing. But also it doesn't.
The father can have their say, but in no legal sense of the word. And why should they? You can't force someone into having an abortion.
Maybe you would like to. But I don't think it should ever be legal.
Ultimately, it is up to the parents in question, but it really is no one else's business what option they take and no one has the right to judge. No one knows until they have walked in those shoes etc.
A right that I don't have a problem with. and if a percentage of my taxes goes to help families with disabled children, and schools, and equipment. then it's money well spent.
Maybe we should stop giving treatment to elderly people. It's a right that affects us all. perhaps they shouldn't have a right, because they'll die soon anyway. :rolleyes:
A person is a person. It's the child that has the right to be cared for, not the mother that made the decision. she gets the help for the child.
And after the mother has exercised her 'right' to have it who is going to foot the bill for a lifetime of care?
While some might perceive it as the mothers right, it is society who will pick up the tab for her selfish act of 'must have a baby at any cost and sod the kids life'.
How can anyone predict the severity of a disability whilst the child is in utero? And what about post natal disabilities? Premature babies often have disabilities from being born too soon, should they not be allowed to live? Or children who become disabled through illness or injury?
I'm sure she's a wondeful carer, but where are the children's parents? Very profoundly disabled people break healthy people, destroy family, destroy any semblance of ordinary life.
But I did see something touching once - a young man in a wheelchair parked outide a shop. His face was distorted and he twitched= then his Mum came out of the shop and he got all excited and waved about and smiled - and suddenly he was beautiful.
I;m so glad I never had to make a decision like the OPs friend.
Well obviously it's up to the individual concerned, and I don't feel morally qualified to pass judgement on them.
All I can say is that if it was me, I'd abort as it would be abundantly clear that the child would face a short life of very low quality.
When was this? As far as I was aware, all women are now given a NT scan at 12 weeks which gives them an indication of whether an amnio as needed.
No. You're promoting the nazi eugenics programme if you support that.
NT is for spina bifida I thought?....the AFP test can give you a risk indicator, but Downs is one of those things that can come from the best of tests and scans.
Amnio increases risk of miscarriage... at my age I would ask for an amnio anyway, or if I was in an area where it was available - CV
Is'nt there just.
Remember people, each and every one of us is only an accident or illness away from severe disability.
And its just plummeted to the furthest depths now too .