Now is a good time to put full redoubling of the line between Exeter and Salisbury back on the drawing board.
If only I were transport minister.
My wish list for Devon and Cornwall.
Exeter/Tavistock to Bere Alston re-instated doubled tracked and electrified, including the Gunnislake branch to Plymouth, and extend the line back to Launceston.
Bedwyn to Penzance via Taunton, Exeter and Plymouth electrified. (Electrification to Bedwyn from London has already been passed.)
Plymouth to Birmingham via Bristol electrified.
Tilting trains capable of at least 140 mph on selected sections of the routes above.
Torquay/Paignton to Brixham re-instated.
Ilfracombe, Padstow and Bideford re-connected to the rail network.
Fowey branch line re-instated as a passenger service.
South Brent to Kingsbridge re-instated.
Like I said, a wish list, most of which is unlikely to happen in my lifetime, if ever tbh.
Going to Dartmouth soon and just wondering, what the latest situation is with the Paddington to Exeter line? I assumed there were big problems with most rail lines running in and out of Exeter, yet can't find anything specific. Also, if I can get to Exeter, are they running a bus service instead from there to Totnes at the moment in place of the Dawlish line? With thanks to anyone in that neck of the woods.
Going to Dartmouth soon and just wondering, what the latest situation is with the Paddington to Exeter line? I assumed there were big problems with most rail lines running in and out of Exeter, yet can't find anything specific.
Going to Dartmouth soon and just wondering, what the latest situation is with the Paddington to Exeter line? I assumed there were big problems with most rail lines running in and out of Exeter, yet can't find anything specific. Also, if I can get to Exeter, are they running a bus service instead from there to Totnes at the moment in place of the Dawlish line? With thanks to anyone in that neck of the woods.
There should be a connecting bus service. Failing that there is a standard bus service running anyway.
As someone from North Devon I've always thought it a good idea to build a track that goes down from Tiverton, through Barnstaple and Bideford, then further down to the bigger towns on the North Cornwall coast like Bude and Newquay, and then maybe connecting to the bigger places in South Cornwall like Truro. Part of that reason is selfish in that it'd save me a lot of time but this situation has highlighted that we need more than one train route into Cornwall to act as a back-up! A lot of these towns are also not (or hardly ever) served by trains and involve changing at the bigger towns and cities first and they would benefit from the easier accessibility by public transport. Of course this will never happen in a million years because of the cost to population ratio
As someone from North Devon I've always thought it a good idea to build a track that goes down from Tiverton, through Barnstaple and Bideford, then further down to the bigger towns on the North Cornwall coast like Bude and Newquay, and then maybe connecting to the bigger places in South Cornwall like Truro. Part of that reason is selfish in that it'd save me a lot of time but this situation has highlighted that we need more than one train route into Cornwall to act as a back-up! A lot of these towns are also not (or hardly ever) served by trains and involve changing at the bigger towns and cities first and they would benefit from the easier accessibility by public transport. Of course this will never happen in a million years because of the cost to population ratio
Newquay is already on the national rail network. Are you talking about a direct connection between Bude and Newquay?
Thank you JRA, I appreciate this. The local bus service info. is especially useful and may save me a bit, as I was planning a taxi from Totnes to Dartmouth. I know there's disruption, but the website information is conflicting and when you're not familiar with the area, it becomes quite confusing. At one stage the other evening, the BBC made it sound as if things had deteriorated further and there were no trains at all running in and out of Exeter. When afaik, they were specifically referring to the Exeter, Waterloo line. I have a short break planned ages ago, and am travelling back alone by rail, so am just trying to work out ahead of time, what my options are, so I don't end up stranded!
I asked the travel company about cancellation, but their official line is that there is still the means to get there, as there is an alternative service in place - namely a special bus service laid on from Exeter Station to Totnes at the original train times.
Thank you JRA, I appreciate this. The local bus service info. is especially useful and may save me a bit, as I was planning a taxi from Totnes to Dartmouth. I know there's disruption, but the website information is conflicting and when you're not familiar with the area, it becomes quite confusing. At one stage the other evening, the BBC made it sound as if things had deteriorated further and there were no trains at all running in and out of Exeter. When afaik, they were specifically referring to the Exeter, Waterloo line. I have a short break planned ages ago, and am travelling back alone by rail, so am just trying to work out ahead of time, what my options are, so I don't end up stranded!
I asked the travel company about cancellation, but their official line is that there is still the means to get there, as there is an alternative service in place - namely a special bus service laid on from Exeter Station to Totnes at the original train times.
The best you can do regarding rail replacement buses is to keep an eye on the latest travel updates on the First Great Western web site. Alternatively you could phone them.
Regarding bus tickets. There are day rovers/passes (*) available, which could be cheaper than buying single or return tickets, depending on journeys taken, but may not be interchangeable between First and Stagecoach bus services. The last time I was in that part of the UK a few months ago, I asked the driver for the cheapest ticket for my journey and they gave me a day rover/pass.
(*) Unlimited travel on part of the network.
Although I don't live there currently, I know the area pretty well. Hopefully you'll like Dartmouth, if you haven't been there before.
HOWEVER, if the lines between Paddington and Exeter get flooded again (which is where your confusion came in - there was a point over the weekend when all lines to the south west were blocked due to storm damage, but the line from Paddington has since reopened), you will more than likely have to get a replacement coach for that stage of your journey.
I know everyone bangs on about it being an unreliable line that needs replacing with a stronger route - which I guess is true.
But it would be a shame, it's beautiful rail journey, I go along that route often, along the Teign estuary, along the Teignmouth and Dawlish seafronts and up the Exe esturay. On a nice day it's lovely.
But it would be a shame, it's beautiful rail journey, I go along that route often, along the Teign estuary, along the Teignmouth and Dawlish seafronts and up the Exe esturay. On a nice day it's lovely.
You could create a reef offshore which would reduce the strength of the waves before they reached the seawall - and it would make the surfers happy.
Newquay is already on the national rail network. Are you talking about a direct connection between Bude and Newquay?
Yeah sorry that's what I meant, I already knew you could get to Newquay by train, though you have to come up from South Cornwall - it would be a more direct route to towns on the north coast of Devon and Cornwall, as well as a second route into Cornwall!
Yeah sorry that's what I meant, I already knew you could get to Newquay by train, though you have to come up from South Cornwall - it would be a more direct route to towns on the north coast of Devon and Cornwall, as well as a second route into Cornwall!
There is a map shown in the link below, detailing the rail network in most of Devon as it was in the 1930's.
The fact is, with our current car culture, most of the routes that are gone would not be able to run a frequent service nowadays and only survive due to tourism. We'll never know how it would have turned out, if things had been left alone, i.e. the Beeching cuts had never happened.
It was an ill informed decision, but it is easy to say that now in hindsight. At the time, the situation was different. The worst thing to come about because of this is the way it was done (Ernest Marples again) in that the tracks were ripped up before any appeals or protests were allowed to proceed to conclusion, the track beds weren't protected and some have been built over in the meantime, all of which has made it much more difficult to re-instate lines.
It has been estimated that a third of what was removed should have remained and the remainder was essentially duplication in one way or another or would never have been profitable without large subsidies.
It was widely viewed at the time that the cuts went too far, there were many protests and campaigns to keep lines open that were scheduled for closure, most of which fell of deaf ears with a minister for Transport who put vested self-intrest first!
There is no doubt there was a need for some rationalisation, as you have said, but many of the cuts made little sense back then and make even less sense now as many of the lines closed then would be very profitable now.
The car has essentially led to the demise of many rural railways. ETA. The very fact that people are obsessed with cars in the UK and many regard them as second homes, hasn't helped matters.
The reason the car led to the perceived demise for local railways is down to the government, the government systematically destroyed rural railways making the car the only choice for most people.
Padstow in North Cornwall is a perfect example, the line was used to take fish to market in the winter and bring tourists in the summer, once the line was closed people had no choice but to use cars.
Or Portishead at the mouth of the River Avon in Somerset. It is @ 11 miles from Portishead to Bristol Temple meads and yet the drive can take well over an hour in the rush hour. The line still exists as the freight line to Avonmouth Docks but the government refuses to restore the line for passenger service despite its urgent need.
Now is a good time to put full redoubling of the line between Exeter and Salisbury back on the drawing board.
If only I were transport minister.
My wish list for Devon and Cornwall.
Exeter/Tavistock to Bere Alston re-instated doubled tracked and electrified, including the Gunnislake branch to Plymouth, and extend the line back to Launceston.
Bedwyn to Penzance via Taunton, Exeter and Plymouth electrified. (Electrification to Bedwyn from London has already been passed.)
Plymouth to Birmingham via Bristol electrified.
Tilting trains capable of at least 140 mph on selected sections of the routes above.
Torquay/Paignton to Brixham re-instated.
Ilfracombe, Padstow and Bideford re-connected to the rail network.
Fowey branch line re-instated as a passenger service.
South Brent to Kingsbridge re-instated.
Like I said, a wish list, most of which is unlikely to happen in my lifetime, if ever tbh.
I would agree with all of those.
the Campaign For Better transport has a "wish list" of lines throughout the country it would like to see reopen, Lines that should reopen.
Reopening these lines would cost a great deal less than HS2 and provide much better value for money as they would be used by a lot more people.
It was widely viewed at the time that the cuts went too far, there were many protests and campaigns to keep lines open that were scheduled for closure, most of which fell of deaf ears with a minister for Transport who put vested self-intrest first!
There is no doubt there was a need for some rationalisation, as you have said, but many of the cuts made little sense back then and make even less sense now as many of the lines closed then would be very profitable now.
The reason the car led to the perceived demise for local railways is down to the government, the government systematically destroyed rural railways making the car the only choice for most people.
Padstow in North Cornwall is a perfect example, the line was used to take fish to market in the winter and bring tourists in the summer, once the line was closed people had no choice but to use cars.
Or Portishead at the mouth of the River Avon in Somerset. It is @ 11 miles from Portishead to Bristol Temple meads and yet the drive can take well over an hour in the rush hour. The line still exists as the freight line to Avonmouth Docks but the government refuses to restore the line for passenger service despite its urgent need.
I would agree with all of those.
the Campaign For Better transport has a "wish list" of lines throughout the country it would like to see reopen, Lines that should reopen.
Reopening these lines would cost a great deal less than HS2 and provide much better value for money as they would be used by a lot more people.
The reason that many rural railways were axed was because of the popularity of the car, leading to decreased rail use at the time. Also, I'm not convinced that many of these rural rail lines, which were abandoned at the time, would be particularly profitable nowadays, bearing in mind the cost of running and maintaining railways.
As for the Campaign For Better Transport re-openings, that really is a wish list. Most of that will never happen, or at best not anytime soon.
You could add Bude to my wish list above, but again probably pie in the sky, until attitudes regarding car use change in the UK. Another problem is that Devon and Cornwall has become a haven for wealthy people that buy second homes or move there to retire, hence the extortionate house prices in many areas, and many of these people will prefer to take the car if possible, rather than a train or bus, as it is more convenient.
The problem with the current line at Dawlish is that it hasn't been properly sorted; years of patches and repairs and no proper investment to protect it. It's amazing what hasn't been done to protect it from the elements.
This line is incredibly popular and important - the local trains to/from Exeter are always busy and quite often overcrowded, yet hugely under-invested.
This line is incredibly popular and important - the local trains to/from Exeter are always busy and quite often overcrowded, yet hugely under-invested.
If that line ever gets closed (permanently), it will be a sad day IMO, as scenically it is incredibly beautiful. It's something I look forward to seeing every time I go to Devon. It's up there as a scenic route, along with the West Highland Line, Settle to Carlisle Line and the Cambrian Coast Line.
As I stated earlier in the thread, I think there is a good case for electrification between Bedwyn and Penzance and Plymouth to Bristol, apart from the urgent need to provide a new route into Devon and Cornwall avoiding Dawlish during inclement weather.
The reason that many rural railways were axed was because of the popularity of the car, leading to decreased rail use at the time. Also, I'm not convinced that many of these rural rail lines, which were abandoned at the time, would be particularly profitable nowadays, bearing in mind the cost of running and maintaining railways.
One of the main criticisms of Beeching was that he didn't take into account that unprofitable rural lines feed onto the profitable intercity lines. Once people had to use cars to get about the rural areas there was less incentive to use the trains at all - hence the continued decline of rail post Beeching.
Marples has come in for some rightful criticism, but Labour continued with the cutting program - presumably old fashioned railways didn't fit in with Wilson's "White heat of technology" schtick.
The reason that many rural railways were axed was because of the popularity of the car, leading to decreased rail use at the time. Also, I'm not convinced that many of these rural rail lines, which were abandoned at the time, would be particularly profitable nowadays, bearing in mind the cost of running and maintaining railways.
As for the Campaign For Better Transport re-openings, that really is a wish list. Most of that will never happen, or at best not anytime soon.
You could add Bude to my wish list above, but again probably pie in the sky, until attitudes regarding car use change in the UK. Another problem is that Devon and Cornwall has become a haven for wealthy people that buy second homes or move there to retire, hence the extortionate house prices in many areas, and many of these people will prefer to take the car if possible, rather than a train or bus, as it is more convenient.
However it became a catch 22 situation.
After WW II the Labour government commissioned a report to outline what investment would be needed to restore the railway network to pre-war standards. This report was shelved on the grounds of cost and that signalled the start of the run down of the railway network
Obviously as rural services became more unreliable people were bound to look towards a more reliable means of transport. Being late for work because the train broke down or was cancelled will only work for so long before you are looking for a new job.
The problem with the Beeching cuts is they were often badly thought out with no regard given to other ways to save money and no thought whatsoever was given to the impact on those affected by the line closures. North Cornwall was an absolute perfect example of this and it took the economy years to recover. The downside of which is trying to find a parking space in Padstow on a sunny August afternoon, especially when compared to parking in Lelant Saltings park-and-ride and catching the train in to St. Ives.
It is also interesting to compare the UK to Europe in the same period. european railways were decimated during WW II, in comparission British railways were almost pristine and yet successive governments in the UK systematically ran down the railways in the UK whilst in europe the railways were not only restored but modernised at far greater cost and are still flourishing despite the fact that people in Europe also own cars.
The car culture we have in this country today is because, for the last 60 years, most people have had no choice.
One of the main criticisms of Beeching was that he didn't take into account that unprofitable rural lines feed onto the profitable intercity lines. Once people had to use cars to get about the rural areas there was less incentive to use the trains at all - hence the continued decline of rail post Beeching. Marples has come in for some rightful criticism, but Labour continued with the cutting program - presumably old fashioned railways didn't fit in with Wilson's "White heat of technology" schtick.
Absolutely agree. Both political parties have to take the blame for what happened. If anything the closure programme increased under Wilson's Labour government.
The suggestion at the time was that busses would provide the services instead of trains, but even then everyone knew it was a non-starter.
from a tourist point of view, always disliked the railway in Dawlish, kind of spoils the beach holiday feel to the place. and as for the warren what a pain having to do that detour under the bridge to get to the beach for all the holiday park people.
Comments
If only I were transport minister.
My wish list for Devon and Cornwall.
Exeter/Tavistock to Bere Alston re-instated doubled tracked and electrified, including the Gunnislake branch to Plymouth, and extend the line back to Launceston.
Bedwyn to Penzance via Taunton, Exeter and Plymouth electrified. (Electrification to Bedwyn from London has already been passed.)
Plymouth to Birmingham via Bristol electrified.
Tilting trains capable of at least 140 mph on selected sections of the routes above.
Torquay/Paignton to Brixham re-instated.
Ilfracombe, Padstow and Bideford re-connected to the rail network.
Fowey branch line re-instated as a passenger service.
South Brent to Kingsbridge re-instated.
Like I said, a wish list, most of which is unlikely to happen in my lifetime, if ever tbh.
It was essentially industrial vandalism.
And he probably would have been jailed for tax fraud, if he hadn't buggered off to Monaco.
There should be a connecting bus service. Failing that there is a standard bus service running anyway.
Exeter to Totnes.
http://www.stagecoachbus.com/PdfUploads/Timetable_44196_X64.pdf
Totnes to Dartmouth/Kingsbridge/Plymouth.
http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/devon_cornwall/assets/pdfs/journey_planning/booklets/X80_X81_93.pdf
http://www.stagecoachbus.com/PdfUploads/Timetable_46341_GOLD.pdf
Newquay is already on the national rail network. Are you talking about a direct connection between Bude and Newquay?
Thank you JRA, I appreciate this. The local bus service info. is especially useful and may save me a bit, as I was planning a taxi from Totnes to Dartmouth. I know there's disruption, but the website information is conflicting and when you're not familiar with the area, it becomes quite confusing. At one stage the other evening, the BBC made it sound as if things had deteriorated further and there were no trains at all running in and out of Exeter. When afaik, they were specifically referring to the Exeter, Waterloo line. I have a short break planned ages ago, and am travelling back alone by rail, so am just trying to work out ahead of time, what my options are, so I don't end up stranded!
I asked the travel company about cancellation, but their official line is that there is still the means to get there, as there is an alternative service in place - namely a special bus service laid on from Exeter Station to Totnes at the original train times.
The best you can do regarding rail replacement buses is to keep an eye on the latest travel updates on the First Great Western web site. Alternatively you could phone them.
http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/About-Us/Customer-services/Contact-us
Or try 01752 675640. That's a Plymouth number.
Regarding bus tickets. There are day rovers/passes (*) available, which could be cheaper than buying single or return tickets, depending on journeys taken, but may not be interchangeable between First and Stagecoach bus services. The last time I was in that part of the UK a few months ago, I asked the driver for the cheapest ticket for my journey and they gave me a day rover/pass.
(*) Unlimited travel on part of the network.
Although I don't live there currently, I know the area pretty well. Hopefully you'll like Dartmouth, if you haven't been there before.
Train: Paddington - Exeter SD
Rail replacement coach: Exeter SD - Totnes
Service bus: Totnes - Dartmouth
HOWEVER, if the lines between Paddington and Exeter get flooded again (which is where your confusion came in - there was a point over the weekend when all lines to the south west were blocked due to storm damage, but the line from Paddington has since reopened), you will more than likely have to get a replacement coach for that stage of your journey.
Details of how to get a refund here
But it would be a shame, it's beautiful rail journey, I go along that route often, along the Teign estuary, along the Teignmouth and Dawlish seafronts and up the Exe esturay. On a nice day it's lovely.
There is a map shown in the link below, detailing the rail network in most of Devon as it was in the 1930's.
Interesting article.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26068375
The fact is, with our current car culture, most of the routes that are gone would not be able to run a frequent service nowadays and only survive due to tourism. We'll never know how it would have turned out, if things had been left alone, i.e. the Beeching cuts had never happened.
It was widely viewed at the time that the cuts went too far, there were many protests and campaigns to keep lines open that were scheduled for closure, most of which fell of deaf ears with a minister for Transport who put vested self-intrest first!
There is no doubt there was a need for some rationalisation, as you have said, but many of the cuts made little sense back then and make even less sense now as many of the lines closed then would be very profitable now.
The reason the car led to the perceived demise for local railways is down to the government, the government systematically destroyed rural railways making the car the only choice for most people.
Padstow in North Cornwall is a perfect example, the line was used to take fish to market in the winter and bring tourists in the summer, once the line was closed people had no choice but to use cars.
Or Portishead at the mouth of the River Avon in Somerset. It is @ 11 miles from Portishead to Bristol Temple meads and yet the drive can take well over an hour in the rush hour. The line still exists as the freight line to Avonmouth Docks but the government refuses to restore the line for passenger service despite its urgent need.
I would agree with all of those.
the Campaign For Better transport has a "wish list" of lines throughout the country it would like to see reopen, Lines that should reopen.
Reopening these lines would cost a great deal less than HS2 and provide much better value for money as they would be used by a lot more people.
The reason that many rural railways were axed was because of the popularity of the car, leading to decreased rail use at the time. Also, I'm not convinced that many of these rural rail lines, which were abandoned at the time, would be particularly profitable nowadays, bearing in mind the cost of running and maintaining railways.
As for the Campaign For Better Transport re-openings, that really is a wish list. Most of that will never happen, or at best not anytime soon.
You could add Bude to my wish list above, but again probably pie in the sky, until attitudes regarding car use change in the UK. Another problem is that Devon and Cornwall has become a haven for wealthy people that buy second homes or move there to retire, hence the extortionate house prices in many areas, and many of these people will prefer to take the car if possible, rather than a train or bus, as it is more convenient.
Marples was brought in by the government to do a particular job.
He did the job and then returned to ICI.
He had no interest in railways, he was a businessman.
This line is incredibly popular and important - the local trains to/from Exeter are always busy and quite often overcrowded, yet hugely under-invested.
If that line ever gets closed (permanently), it will be a sad day IMO, as scenically it is incredibly beautiful. It's something I look forward to seeing every time I go to Devon. It's up there as a scenic route, along with the West Highland Line, Settle to Carlisle Line and the Cambrian Coast Line.
As I stated earlier in the thread, I think there is a good case for electrification between Bedwyn and Penzance and Plymouth to Bristol, apart from the urgent need to provide a new route into Devon and Cornwall avoiding Dawlish during inclement weather.
One of the main criticisms of Beeching was that he didn't take into account that unprofitable rural lines feed onto the profitable intercity lines. Once people had to use cars to get about the rural areas there was less incentive to use the trains at all - hence the continued decline of rail post Beeching.
Marples has come in for some rightful criticism, but Labour continued with the cutting program - presumably old fashioned railways didn't fit in with Wilson's "White heat of technology" schtick.
However it became a catch 22 situation.
After WW II the Labour government commissioned a report to outline what investment would be needed to restore the railway network to pre-war standards. This report was shelved on the grounds of cost and that signalled the start of the run down of the railway network
Obviously as rural services became more unreliable people were bound to look towards a more reliable means of transport. Being late for work because the train broke down or was cancelled will only work for so long before you are looking for a new job.
The problem with the Beeching cuts is they were often badly thought out with no regard given to other ways to save money and no thought whatsoever was given to the impact on those affected by the line closures. North Cornwall was an absolute perfect example of this and it took the economy years to recover. The downside of which is trying to find a parking space in Padstow on a sunny August afternoon, especially when compared to parking in Lelant Saltings park-and-ride and catching the train in to St. Ives.
It is also interesting to compare the UK to Europe in the same period. european railways were decimated during WW II, in comparission British railways were almost pristine and yet successive governments in the UK systematically ran down the railways in the UK whilst in europe the railways were not only restored but modernised at far greater cost and are still flourishing despite the fact that people in Europe also own cars.
The car culture we have in this country today is because, for the last 60 years, most people have had no choice.
Absolutely agree. Both political parties have to take the blame for what happened. If anything the closure programme increased under Wilson's Labour government.
The suggestion at the time was that busses would provide the services instead of trains, but even then everyone knew it was a non-starter.