Maybe having worked at Bletchley, they would have been exposed to documents that had been redacted at certain points.
Fair point. Certainly, the women might well have been aware of the process of redaction in that elaborate steps were taken to conceal the source of Ultra/Enigma intelligence from commanders to whom the raw information was conveyed. I just don't think they would have used the word 'redacted' at that time. It sounds like the kind of word some American lawyer/bureauocrat deployed once redaction associated FoI requests became commonplace. I just think an Englishwoman of that period would probably said something like 'censored', 'blue-pencilled' or 'withheld'.
I accept, it's a tough call for a relatively young author to capture the flavour of the language in use at a particular historical time. For more distant periods, it's not so hard since there are few except language specialists who could challenge them. For recent periods within living memory, though, there are more old farts like me who who can pipe up saying 'we didn't talk like that then'. Another instance I recall from the first series was use of the expression 'cigarette butts' by the AMM character. No respectable suburban lady of the 1950s would have used that Americanism then. She'd have said cigarette ends though less polite English people would have said '**** ends' or 'dog ends'.
Another point while I'm banging on, while the production team have done a good job with props, vehicles and costumes, the location settings are just too clean. The settings are OK architecturally, but this drama is set before the first Clean Air Act came in (1956)at which time London was a really, really grimy place, especially after the neglect of the War years. In reason, though, there's not much the production team can do about that!
I loved the first series but these latest episodes seem a bit flat, I've tried to get into it but its felt a bit disappointing. Not sure I'm going to watch Bletchley til the end of its current run.
The sister at the hospital asked Susan how she was and Susan replied "Good. I'm good." That really is a very modern expression. She would most likely have replied "I'm very well thank you."
For 'modern' read 'American'. We say 'I'm fine'. And CEO is another US import. We had Managing Directors (MDs). And then there was awful 'levverage' [sic]. If you must use the word (and they wouldn't have then) at least pronounce it properly.
But I missed the reference to second-class stamps.
Very weak so far, this series - how many episodes to go? I can't leave another programme mid-series as with Sherlock. Too much dialogue and wild assumptions being made without any logic being applied. The handbags are annoying me too , as is the copper (who left Trollied to film this, it appears). Even Mrs T33v33 is pulling holes in the plot and she watches Hollyoaks. I'm not a linguistic expert, but I'm also not sure of the link between Russian and Slovak languages as used in the plot last night - pretty sure there is very little.
The fact the characters aren't officially part of anything doesn't work - need to get them in the secret service or something, then getting into these scrapes will be justifiable.
Also, the actress who left last week, she was referenced as being somewhere. Thought the new girl said Mumbay (poss pronunciation of Mumbai) - but surely was Bombay to us in the UK until mid-nineties? Maybe I misheard.
Very weak so far, this series - how many episodes to go? I can't leave another programme mid-series as with Sherlock. Too much dialogue and wild assumptions being made without any logic being applied. The handbags are annoying me too , as is the copper (who left Trollied to film this, it appears). Even Mrs T33v33 is pulling holes in the plot and she watches Hollyoaks. I'm not a linguistic expert, but I'm also not sure of the link between Russian and Slovak languages as used in the plot last night - pretty sure there is very little.
The fact the characters aren't officially part of anything doesn't work - need to get them in the secret service or something, then getting into these scrapes will be justifiable.
Also, the actress who left last week, she was referenced as being somewhere. Thought the new girl said Mumbay (poss pronunciation of Mumbai) - but surely was Bombay to us in the UK until mid-nineties? Maybe I misheard.
I thought she was teaching at Bletchley which was now a teaching college or was that someone else?
What puzzled me was the way the Millie character was trying to communicate with the Czech girl. She goes into this strange routine of trying to translate the girl's Czech words using her smattering of Russian, which is a related Slavic language. Yet Millie's a German translator, Czechoslovakia was occupied by Germany throughout the recent war and before that (up to 1918) formed part of the mainly German-speaking Austro-Hungarian Empire. Apart from that, German was the lingua franca of Central Europe. So why didn't Millie try German on the girl??
What puzzled me was the way the Millie character was trying to communicate with the Czech girl. She goes into this strange routine of trying to translate the girl's Czech words using her smattering of Russian, which is a related Slavic language. Yet Millie's a German translator, Czechoslovakia was occupied by Germany throughout the recent war and before that (up to 1918) formed part of the mainly German-speaking Austro-Hungarian Empire. Apart from that, German was the lingua franca of Central Europe. So why didn't Millie try German on the girl??
What puzzled me was the way the Millie character was trying to communicate with the Czech girl. She goes into this strange routine of trying to translate the girl's Czech words using her smattering of Russian, which is a related Slavic language. Yet Millie's a German translator, Czechoslovakia was occupied by Germany throughout the recent war and before that (up to 1918) formed part of the mainly German-speaking Austro-Hungarian Empire. Apart from that, German was the lingua franca of Central Europe. So why didn't Millie try German on the girl??
I'd forgotten she was the translator, so she probably had a rudimentary knowledge of all european langauages. Looking at the words she used such as north, south, river, sister etc, it does seem there is a close link between these words in Slovak and Russian - she'd probably know all these words in all languages. The scene makes a bit more sense now.
Even though the area was occupied, obviously the natural language remained spoken and perhaps if the girl came from a rural area, she'd possibly not know much german.
Fair point. Certainly, the women might well have been aware of the process of redaction in that elaborate steps were taken to conceal the source of Ultra/Enigma intelligence from commanders to whom the raw information was conveyed. I just don't think they would have used the word 'redacted' at that time. It sounds like the kind of word some American lawyer/bureauocrat deployed once redaction associated FoI requests became commonplace. I just think an Englishwoman of that period would probably said something like 'censored', 'blue-pencilled' or 'withheld'.
Do you want to have another go at making that post a bit more patronising towards women who worked at Bletchley during the war...
My favourite post of this type on DS, was when someone criticsed the writers of Ashes To Ashes for including the word 'tw*t' citing the 'fact' that 'everybody knows that it had only been in use for the last few years!'
Unbeleivable the way the rough tough snooker playing bookie spilled the beans to the ladies as soon as they had told him the story with no proof whatsoever.
I think Anna Maxwell Martin's departure has left a big gap. I like Alice's character but there was definitely something missing last night. Also, the basic premise of the series seems to be getting watered down and they're just becoming another group of amateur detectives who always happen to be around when someone gets murdered or abducted.
I agree with a previous poster, they really need to be working for police intelligence or something like that and be part of a system and a structure. This running around, handbags flapping, is starting to look a bit silly. Also, now that none of the characters seem to have any close family members around, the whole business of having to keep their work in Bletchley a secret has disappeared, which was a strong element of series one.
Also, the actress who left last week, she was referenced as being somewhere. Thought the new girl said Mumbay (poss pronunciation of Mumbai) - but surely was Bombay to us in the UK until mid-nineties? Maybe I misheard.
No you didn't mishear - Alice definitely said Mumbay. And you're right at that time people would have been calling it Bombay.
I wonder if they couldn't make up their mind whether to be historically accurate or to use the current name and decided to just mix the two and hope for the best.
I only know English and some French so I interpreted the scene with Millie and the Czech girl as them using Russian as an intermediate language to communicate with. It is true that a large proportion of Czechoslovakia in WW2 was German speaking so Millie could have tried German.
Interesting about that Maltese criminal gang that actually existed post war, in Britain.
I also picked up on the "Mumbai" instead of "Bombay" thing. Any Brits who'd heard of Bombay would still be calling it Bombay back in the 50s.
Not as enjoyable as the first series and is getting to be a bit silly. I would have thought that the women at Bletchley with no families would have been offered posts in the secret services MI5, MI6. I believe there were women working for them back in the 50's and would have been invaluable in the Cold War. If they could make it so that they were field workers, working in a sort of official capacity it would mean that there would be something for them to work for without it being a coincidence etc.
I cannot believe that once they found Jasper with his throat cut they did not alert the authorities or perhaps leave them huge clues as to what was going on without revealing their identities.
Do you want to have another go at making that post a bit more patronising towards women who worked at Bletchley during the war...
My favourite post of this type on DS, was when someone criticsed the writers of Ashes To Ashes for including the word 'tw*t' citing the 'fact' that 'everybody knows that it had only been in use for the last few years!'
Sheesh, talk about going OTT. Here we are having a not-particularly-controversial discussion about verbal anachonisms. I support the point that the word "redacted" wouldn't have been used in the 50s by "an Englishwoman". I might easily have said "by an English person" but I used the expression I did because the character using it was undoubtedly a woman (Millie, I think), undoubtedly an Englishwoman. And you come along and somehow work up that chance use of words into some sort of assault on womankind. Gimme a break.
As it happens, I've the highest respect for both the men and women of Bletchley. I remember watching the 3-part BBC series "Station X" years ago. One of the most memorable sequences was when the interviewer asked the principal participants (including the women) why they hadn't spoken about the important role they'd played much earlier. The common theme was that they'd been given strict instructions never to speak about their work at the end of the War and they'd simply kept faith with that undertaking. Of course, for that generation "honour", "playing the game" and the "done thing" weren't jokes. You were left with the impression that they'd have gone to the grave without revealing their story but for the fact that the "Enigma" broke in the 1970s. Now that's worthy of respect.
One of the reasons they did not speak after the war was the work still carried on into the cold war and the breaking of Russian codes even if not at Bletchley Park. Treason was a hanging offence.
I wasn't particularly inspired by the two-parter at the beginning of this series, so when I saw that his weeks episode clashed with an old episode of Jonathan Creek on Drama, I decided to jump ship and go with the repeat. Having read the reports on here, it looks like I made a good choice.
I wasn't particularly inspired by the two-parter at the beginning of this series, so when I saw that his weeks episode clashed with an old episode of Jonathan Creek on Drama, I decided to jump ship and go with the repeat. Having read the reports on here, it looks like I made a good choice.
Comments
Fair point. Certainly, the women might well have been aware of the process of redaction in that elaborate steps were taken to conceal the source of Ultra/Enigma intelligence from commanders to whom the raw information was conveyed. I just don't think they would have used the word 'redacted' at that time. It sounds like the kind of word some American lawyer/bureauocrat deployed once redaction associated FoI requests became commonplace. I just think an Englishwoman of that period would probably said something like 'censored', 'blue-pencilled' or 'withheld'.
I accept, it's a tough call for a relatively young author to capture the flavour of the language in use at a particular historical time. For more distant periods, it's not so hard since there are few except language specialists who could challenge them. For recent periods within living memory, though, there are more old farts like me who who can pipe up saying 'we didn't talk like that then'. Another instance I recall from the first series was use of the expression 'cigarette butts' by the AMM character. No respectable suburban lady of the 1950s would have used that Americanism then. She'd have said cigarette ends though less polite English people would have said '**** ends' or 'dog ends'.
Another point while I'm banging on, while the production team have done a good job with props, vehicles and costumes, the location settings are just too clean. The settings are OK architecturally, but this drama is set before the first Clean Air Act came in (1956)at which time London was a really, really grimy place, especially after the neglect of the War years. In reason, though, there's not much the production team can do about that!
For 'modern' read 'American'. We say 'I'm fine'. And CEO is another US import. We had Managing Directors (MDs). And then there was awful 'levverage' [sic]. If you must use the word (and they wouldn't have then) at least pronounce it properly.
But I missed the reference to second-class stamps.
Is it me or are all the men in "Bletchley Circle" either misogynists or weak plot devices (or both)?
At least Alice was almost touching on the mathematics of network theory with the map.
Quite a strange storyline dragged out to 2 episodes. It could have all been concluded in last nights episode.
The fact the characters aren't officially part of anything doesn't work - need to get them in the secret service or something, then getting into these scrapes will be justifiable.
Also, the actress who left last week, she was referenced as being somewhere. Thought the new girl said Mumbay (poss pronunciation of Mumbai) - but surely was Bombay to us in the UK until mid-nineties? Maybe I misheard.
I thought she was teaching at Bletchley which was now a teaching college or was that someone else?
The criminal gang here is Maltese. There were indeed vice rings run in London by Maltese in the post-war period — see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messina_Brothers
What puzzled me was the way the Millie character was trying to communicate with the Czech girl. She goes into this strange routine of trying to translate the girl's Czech words using her smattering of Russian, which is a related Slavic language. Yet Millie's a German translator, Czechoslovakia was occupied by Germany throughout the recent war and before that (up to 1918) formed part of the mainly German-speaking Austro-Hungarian Empire. Apart from that, German was the lingua franca of Central Europe. So why didn't Millie try German on the girl??
Because she's thick.
I'd forgotten she was the translator, so she probably had a rudimentary knowledge of all european langauages. Looking at the words she used such as north, south, river, sister etc, it does seem there is a close link between these words in Slovak and Russian - she'd probably know all these words in all languages. The scene makes a bit more sense now.
Even though the area was occupied, obviously the natural language remained spoken and perhaps if the girl came from a rural area, she'd possibly not know much german.
Do you want to have another go at making that post a bit more patronising towards women who worked at Bletchley during the war...
My favourite post of this type on DS, was when someone criticsed the writers of Ashes To Ashes for including the word 'tw*t' citing the 'fact' that 'everybody knows that it had only been in use for the last few years!'
I agree with a previous poster, they really need to be working for police intelligence or something like that and be part of a system and a structure. This running around, handbags flapping, is starting to look a bit silly. Also, now that none of the characters seem to have any close family members around, the whole business of having to keep their work in Bletchley a secret has disappeared, which was a strong element of series one.
It's Lizzie who's at college at Bletchley.
Susan is now in India.
No you didn't mishear - Alice definitely said Mumbay. And you're right at that time people would have been calling it Bombay.
I wonder if they couldn't make up their mind whether to be historically accurate or to use the current name and decided to just mix the two and hope for the best.
Interesting about that Maltese criminal gang that actually existed post war, in Britain.
I also picked up on the "Mumbai" instead of "Bombay" thing. Any Brits who'd heard of Bombay would still be calling it Bombay back in the 50s.
I also noticed the Mumbai/Bombay thing. I honestly thought she said Mombay. Very weird. Maybe it was a mistake and the Director didn't notice.
Glad you clarified that, I was beginning to think I had not been paying attention.
I cannot believe that once they found Jasper with his throat cut they did not alert the authorities or perhaps leave them huge clues as to what was going on without revealing their identities.
Sheesh, talk about going OTT. Here we are having a not-particularly-controversial discussion about verbal anachonisms. I support the point that the word "redacted" wouldn't have been used in the 50s by "an Englishwoman". I might easily have said "by an English person" but I used the expression I did because the character using it was undoubtedly a woman (Millie, I think), undoubtedly an Englishwoman. And you come along and somehow work up that chance use of words into some sort of assault on womankind. Gimme a break.
As it happens, I've the highest respect for both the men and women of Bletchley. I remember watching the 3-part BBC series "Station X" years ago. One of the most memorable sequences was when the interviewer asked the principal participants (including the women) why they hadn't spoken about the important role they'd played much earlier. The common theme was that they'd been given strict instructions never to speak about their work at the end of the War and they'd simply kept faith with that undertaking. Of course, for that generation "honour", "playing the game" and the "done thing" weren't jokes. You were left with the impression that they'd have gone to the grave without revealing their story but for the fact that the "Enigma" broke in the 1970s. Now that's worthy of respect.
Well you'll never know now!