Ex Husband hits pre teen Daughter. Right or wrong?
morecowbell
Posts: 1,491 Forum Member
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Morning all,
Bit of a long one. Better get the kettle on.
My daughter is going through those stroppy pre-teens years. Most arguments I can diffuse with a bit of clever thinking.
She goes to her Dads house most weekends. Recently they have been having horrific arguments.
I found out that he has hit her (he has done it before, when she was younger and I told him in no uncertain terms not too)
The "hit" is on the leg, or the arm or hand. Im not suggesting for one minute that he "beats" her, if you see what I mean.
I have slapped her bum before, when she was a toddler, so this isnt really asking for advise about whether smacking is right or wrong, moreover, is it right or wrong for a 41 year old man to still smack a girl of nearly 12.
I have been in an abusive relationship before, and I think it is sending out completely the wrong message. He has even told her "if you didnt make me angry, I wouldnt hit you" putting the blame totally on her. When the argument is over, presents are bought for her by him.
She is at the age where she will remember the hitting, the arguments, the threatening etc.
She is becoming very down, withdrawn and sad about this and is reluctant to stay at his.
I told her Dad last night that I dont want him seeing her anymore as it ALWAYS results in vile behaviour (his side) Obviously he has hit the roof about this (and I understand that I wasnt in the right saying that) but I really dont know what else to do. He scares her. He scares me. He did the same to me once and I had the police round. The argument that caused it? Him hitting my daugher. :rolleyes:
When she stays there she has on more than a few occasions rung me hysterically crying, saying she hates him, asking to come home because they have argued and he has lost it, or said something really vile. Ive kept a few of these messages/answerphone messages.
She is unhappy, he will not take responsibilty of maturity and its a nightmare for all concerned.
Has anyone been in this situation before? What did you do? What do you suggest I do?
Thanks x
Bit of a long one. Better get the kettle on.
My daughter is going through those stroppy pre-teens years. Most arguments I can diffuse with a bit of clever thinking.
She goes to her Dads house most weekends. Recently they have been having horrific arguments.
I found out that he has hit her (he has done it before, when she was younger and I told him in no uncertain terms not too)
The "hit" is on the leg, or the arm or hand. Im not suggesting for one minute that he "beats" her, if you see what I mean.
I have slapped her bum before, when she was a toddler, so this isnt really asking for advise about whether smacking is right or wrong, moreover, is it right or wrong for a 41 year old man to still smack a girl of nearly 12.
I have been in an abusive relationship before, and I think it is sending out completely the wrong message. He has even told her "if you didnt make me angry, I wouldnt hit you" putting the blame totally on her. When the argument is over, presents are bought for her by him.
She is at the age where she will remember the hitting, the arguments, the threatening etc.
She is becoming very down, withdrawn and sad about this and is reluctant to stay at his.
I told her Dad last night that I dont want him seeing her anymore as it ALWAYS results in vile behaviour (his side) Obviously he has hit the roof about this (and I understand that I wasnt in the right saying that) but I really dont know what else to do. He scares her. He scares me. He did the same to me once and I had the police round. The argument that caused it? Him hitting my daugher. :rolleyes:
When she stays there she has on more than a few occasions rung me hysterically crying, saying she hates him, asking to come home because they have argued and he has lost it, or said something really vile. Ive kept a few of these messages/answerphone messages.
She is unhappy, he will not take responsibilty of maturity and its a nightmare for all concerned.
Has anyone been in this situation before? What did you do? What do you suggest I do?
Thanks x
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Comments
Explain to him that you have no problem with him seeing her, it is just that he seems to be struggling to adjust his discipline to her as she grows to be a young teen.
While the hitting and saying nasty stuff is absolutely wrong, bear in mind that you are getting your account from a hurt and angry pre teen. She knows that you have some power and is trying to get you to come in on her side.
Perhaps talk to her about what is acceptable telling off and what is not, agree what she should be calling you about to come home, but encourage her to try and manage the situation too, by being responsible for her own behaviour.
If you have tried all this and he is still completely unwilling to adjust his behaviour, then yes I would very reluctantly consider reducing contact. I want to make it clear though that it is normal for teens/parents to have some doozies of fall outs and it seems in these early days he is getting it all. Hitting and vile words aside, you may come to feel you have judged him harshly when at some point you are exposed to the full wrath of her teen strops.
What will you do in a year if she treats you the same and announces she wants to live with her dad? What support do you think you will get from him then?
The hitting and the "vile comments" need to be stopped, but if they can then surely it is best for her to keep her dad in her life.
I'm sorry if I have misjudged the seriousness of this abuse, as I would never advise anyone to keep sending their child into a dangerous abusive situation. I'm just not sure if this is not a dad not knowing how to adjust his parenting from toddler to tween.
TBH, that is seriously screwed up behaviour on the part of a grown adult. It is incredibely manipulative and is laying a template for you daughter for future relationships that will bring no one happiness.
However, even though she is expressing her dislike of this situation, she is obviously not so scared of her dad that she won't goad him into lashing out ( you yourself admit that she is being stroppy and dificult ). He shouldn't react the way he does, but she knows that this is how he behaves when pushed and she could be intentionallly pushing his buttons because, ultimately, she gets a reward - his contrition and a gift and, also, your attention and protection!).
TBH, children who are genuinely fearful of a parent's behaviour tend to do all they can to avoid it and with much , much less drama than your daughter is creating ( she would only have the confidence to create the drama of an hysterical phone call to mum if she felt safe to do so).
There seems to be a lot of emotional manipulation going on, and I do wonder whether she is playing you off against each other ( as children of divorced parents often do) to control you both and keep attention focused on her? She knows how to push his buttons, but she knows that his bad behaviour pushes your buttons too
Just a thought,
This has been going on from when she was about 2 years old.
It has been like raising two children. I would have to send him upstairs when she was a toddler because they would squabble like two kids over a favourite toy.
I do feel I have to defend her though. Yes she has strops, attitude and all that comes with being a pre-teen. Over the usual thing, getting up in the morning, brushing her teeth etc. However, ALL of the time she is with him it is him that winds HER up (in a very nasty way) over the most banal thing and then acts sancitmonious when she reacts.
It really is one sided. Honest.
Relationships are never one sided though.
You sound like a very caring , protective mum but the three of you have created this situation and it will take the three of you to change it ( because you are all contributing something to the disfunction of the situation).
Men like that don't deserve children. Buying presents is the typical action of a serial abuser. Like that is going to make it alright.
The more he hits,the more you remember and your life is never the same again. You can remember from younger than the age of 12. I was four or five when I remember being dragged across the floor by the hair.
But you can't make the decision for her - she'll resent you for forcing her to go there (if access continues) if she doesn't want to, and she'll resent you for not letting her go if she wants - teenagers! So put the choice in her hands, plus when dad asks why he's not seeing her any more perhaps the fact that she doesn't want to see him might hit home and make him change his ways. It doesn't meant they can never have a relationship, but jsut that its not healthy at the moment.
I think it will have to be done at some point, although it has been done before and nothing changed. It made it worse. That was the time the police were called as he started on me, then my Mother. He just refuses to acknowledge that he goes to far.
I just dont think he wants her anymore. I think she gets in the way of the new lifestyle he has. New wife, lovely big home. Both earning. Me, entirley different circumstances. Struggling, yet I manage to make her feel loved and secure.
My concern is if she says anything about being hit at school then the authorities will be told. Im confused about how that makes me feel if Im honest. Someone with authority needs to tell him it isnt right. But he will just lose control with me then. He scares me. He scares my daughter. He is a big overbearing bully. His inability to see the severity of the situation scares me.
Last week when he bought her home I swear she was in shock. Deathly pale, shaking, quiet. She left me a message on the answerphone as i was out, she sneaked the house phone up to her room to call me. He had hit her, pulled of her brand new boots and chucked them at a wall (broken them) called her "mentally ill" said she dresses like a "chav" , took a knife and threatened to cut the head off her favourite toy "tigger" . It was stomach churning. She was cowering in her room, whispering, crying, come and get me, Im scared.
Thats not right. She cant do right for doing wrong. It is breaking my heart to see her suffer at his hands. She has lost all confidence in him.
She doesnt want to see him. BUT, she has this beautiful loyalty to him. Does that make sense? She doesnt want to see him but she thinks she should, one, because thats what she knows kids should want, and two, because of the grief she gets if she says "no".
I think you need to give her permission to decide for herself whether she wants to see him or not. Personally I think hitting a 12 year old child is completely unacceptable, however I'm not sure I agree with it at any age so my opinion on that is probably not really that valid.
Have you thought about calling social services for advice....they do that too! There may be a family conciliation service they can refer you to.
I agree with taglet, put the ball in her court.
You need to sit down with her and explain that she might get grief from him, but that you'll do your best to protect her from it, you can explain to him why she doesn't want to see him etc. You also need to explain that he's given up the 'right' to see her, she owes him no loyalty at all. Perhaps explain that its not forever, but if she wants a break it might be worth some 'time off' from him.
Equally if she wants to see him, then you can't be the bad guy and stop her. She's old enough to have an understanding of what she wants, and I think she'll make the right decision on her own.
How is your relationship with your Ex? Do you think it would be a possibility to meet for coffeee / lunch to discuss the situation?
I agree that smacking isn't going to solve anything but suitable punishment for any misbehaviour should be decided and agreed by you and your Ex.
Maybe until the situation is under control your Ex can visit your daughter at your home (as opposed to her going to stay with her Dad) or you all go out for the day.
I don't think anyone will benefit from you banning your Ex from seeing your girl BUT he needs to have terms laid down to him - the smacking cannot continue!
I'll have to muddy the waters and disagree on that - it's too much responsibility for a 'pre-teen' to take on. The decision should really be made by a neutral third party.
TBH, it seems this situation has reached a crisis point and really, OP, you should perhaps look to organise supervised contact on neutral territory between dad and daughter, in the short term, until things cool down.
So IMO it's abusive behaviour and needs to be adressed . If you are too scared to tackle him then maybe social services. Anyway it's against the law isn't it to whack kids nowadays?
That means she could go and report him to the police,
I grew up being quite badly beaten by my father, while my mother stood by and watched (possibly grateful it wasn't her) although she was always there to give me a cuddle after the beating. One bad beating was for stripping wallpaper off a wall that was getting stripped when everyone had stopped for a break, I was thrown down the stairs and then back up them and then battered and put in my room.
I know your daughter is not experiencing this, and what I experienced was quite extreme, however, it is important for your daughter to know that is not acceptable behaviour and she doesn't 'have' to put up with that.
I love this poem and its very true:
If a child lives with criticism,
he learns to condemn.
If a child lives with hostility,
he learns to fight.
If a child lives with ridicule,
he learns to be shy.
If a child lives with shame,
he learns to feel guilty.
If a child lives with tolerance,
he learns to be patient.
If a child lives with encouragement,
he learns confidence.
If a child lives with praise,
he learns to appreciate.
If a child lives with fairness,
he learns justice.
If a child lives with security,
he learns to have faith.
If a child lives with approval,
he learns to like himself.
If a child lives with acceptance and friendship,
He learns to find love in the world
If a child lives with criticism,
he learns to condemn.
If a child lives with hostility,
he learns to fight.
If a child lives with ridicule,
he learns to be shy.
If a child lives with shame,
he learns to feel guilty.
If a child lives with tolerance,
he learns to be patient.
If a child lives with encouragement,
he learns confidence.
If a child lives with praise,
he learns to appreciate.
If a child lives with fairness,
he learns justice.
If a child lives with security,
he learns to have faith.
If a child lives with approval,
he learns to like himself.
If a child lives with acceptance and friendship,
He learns to find love in the world[/QUOTE]
Got that on my fridge bambi. Used to hand it out on parents day as a free gift.
Its not about responsibility its about choice and at the age of 12 she is entitled to make her own choices about who she spends time with. If she doesnt want to go no neutral third party is going to change that. She is, afterall, the most important person in all of this so her views must be taken into account.
A neutral third party, such as a conciliation service may help all come to some conclusions and may help draw up an agreement between all parties but should not make the decision...that should be made by the 12 year old.
From this alone I say you need to get her away from him. Maybe she'll hate you for a while becuase of her loyalty which you mentioned in another post but in the long term she'll thank you. This is going to affect her entire life, the preteens is such an important time for starting to develop who you are. A very minor thing happened to me in my preteens (absolutly nothing compared to anything your daughter has been through) and it killed my confidence, even today i'm shy because of it.
Call social services if you have to, you cannot let anyone physically and emotionally abuse your daughter, even her father.
One of my favourite quotes: "Any man can be a father, it takes a special person to be a dad"
Wow, I could have written that, however my moment of enlightenment didnt arrive until I had knackered up several long term relationships. My current (and last) partner encouraged me to seek help like yours did and I have found out how to deal with my emotions positively.
My nemesis was a mother with a personality disorder but thankfully OP your daughter has you to balance things, to listen to her and to support her. My mother banished my dad so I had no role model other than her.
Sorry, but children these days need to learn to accept what is right and wrong. There is nothing wrong with a slap. I was slapped and it never hurt me. I'm 22 next week. I'm waiting for the "You aren't a parent" argument to be put forward, but still, buying presents after chastising someone defeats the purpose, right?
If I was out of order, received a slap, and then my parents bought me ice cream etc I'd have thought I did nothing wrong. :eek: