The Valeyard - Please Clarify

[Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 14
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In the Trial of a Timelord series with Colin Baker, the Master says that the Valeyard is created between the Doctor's 12th and 13th regenerations.

David Tennant regenerated twice - this has been killing me. Does this mean that when the Doctor is killed in TIA that the Valeyard is created? Is the little girl the Valeyard? With the kill shot, does the little girl in the space suit take the regeneration energy?

Or am I being a moron?
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  • DoctorQuiDoctorQui Posts: 6,428
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    In the Trial of a Timelord series with Colin Baker, the Master says that the Valeyard is created between the Doctor's 12th and 13th regenerations.

    David Tennant regenerated twice - this has been killing me. Does this mean that when the Doctor is killed in TIA that the Valeyard is created? Is the little girl the Valeyard? With the kill shot, does the little girl in the space suit take the regeneration energy?

    Or am I being a moron?

    Not a moron, just the victim of a little bit of DW lore that someone created without thinking that we would ever get to 12-13:D

    The Valeyard isn't an actual incarnation, but a amalgam of his darker side toward the end of his regenerations.

    The most perplexing issue however, is that the Doctor has now indicated that he has inexcess of 500 regenerations:eek:

    Of course, it could be me being the moron:D
  • EELoverEELover Posts: 1,146
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    DoctorQui wrote: »
    The most perplexing issue however, is that the Doctor has now indicated that he has inexcess of 500 regenerations:eek:

    I missed this, when did this occur?
  • DoctorQuiDoctorQui Posts: 6,428
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    EELover wrote: »
    I missed this, when did this occur?

    In SJA episode, Death of the Doctor, I think:confused:
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 752
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    DoctorQui wrote: »
    The Valeyard isn't an actual incarnation, but a amalgam of his darker side toward the end of his regenerations.
    DreamLord?
  • DoctorQuiDoctorQui Posts: 6,428
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    JCRendle wrote: »
    DreamLord?

    Of sorts but not exactly:)

    I understood the Dreamlord to be an image or projection, where as the Valeyard is a physical manifestation. Again, my understanding, there are far more proficient fans who could no doubt give a better example:)
  • EELoverEELover Posts: 1,146
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    DoctorQui wrote: »
    In SJA episode, Death of the Doctor, I think:confused:

    Ah thanks, that explains it, never watched SJA
  • DoctorQuiDoctorQui Posts: 6,428
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    EELover wrote: »
    Ah thanks, that explains it, never watched SJA

    I've only seen the odd few, that being one
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 1,155
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    Even RTD (who wrote that episode) said he didn't expect the bazillion regenerations to stick
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 4,895
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    I'd love the little girl to be the valeyard and I'd love her to regenerate into Matt Smith because I think he does dark extremely well.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 279
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    Highly unlikely that the Valeyard, the Rani, or a great amount of past characters will return in the new run. The producers will let the occasional drip of nostalgia though but mostly will stick to their own 'new' mythology, thats why they reinvented the cybermen history and killed off the timelords. I doubt that the return of Omega will happen either despite constant forum mentions.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 29
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    The Valeyard was originally intended to be a much darker and more 'adult' character. The original character was created by Eric Saward, the script editor at the time. In his version of things, the Doctor would definitely, between his penultimate and final incarnations, become the Valeyard, desperate to extend his life (for a similar example, check out the Master in The Keeper of Traken).

    John Nathan-Turner, who was the producer at the time, didn't like how dark this was, balking at the idea of having a story in which the hero is set on an inevitable path to becoming evil (although these days that seems to happen all the time!) They had a big falling-out over it and Eric Saward refused to allow any of his original script to be used.

    By this point though they'd already established that the Valeyard would be used across the whole arc. Pip and Jane Baker (the people responsible for creating the Rani!) were called in to write a replacement script which patched up the continuity explosion created by Saward pulling out.

    That's how we have the Valeyard as we understand him now - a sort of physical manifestation of the darkest side of the Doctor, a potential outcome from a desperate Doctor at the end of his life.

    Personally I think that the Valeyard is done and dusted - the Doctor's own encounter with him could potentially undo the whole thing as presumably the Doctor would be less likely to turn into him if he was prepared. With all the timey-wimey rewriting that goes on these days as well nothing's ever certain!

    Adding to the never-ending regeneration debate, at the time the 13th incarnation was considered the end of a Time Lord's life, so the 12-13 regeneration was used as the basis of his creation. Now that regenerations are more up in the air, who knows?
  • HelboreHelbore Posts: 16,066
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    DoctorQui wrote: »
    The most perplexing issue however, is that the Doctor has now indicated that he has inexcess of 500 regenerations:eek:

    Didn't he say he had 507 regenerations? I assumed he was just taking the proverbial.
  • DavetheScotDavetheScot Posts: 16,623
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    I see the Valeyard as having been a possible future incarnation that the Doctor might have become, but now won't.
  • DoctorQuiDoctorQui Posts: 6,428
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    I see the Valeyard as having been a possible future incarnation that the Doctor might have become, but now won't.

    That'll do, perfect explanation, nuff said!:D
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 529
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    JCRendle wrote: »
    DreamLord?


    Yes. NO, NO! but if it helps yes.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 198
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    Highly unlikely that the Valeyard, the Rani, or a great amount of past characters will return in the new run. The producers will let the occasional drip of nostalgia though but mostly will stick to their own 'new' mythology, thats why they reinvented the cybermen history and killed off the timelords. I doubt that the return of Omega will happen either despite constant forum mentions.

    I agree with every word. It always seems to me that because there is virtually no real continuity in any old series stories, they're better off drawing a line under it all and starting almost from scratch with a bit more consistency. As for the Valeyard, the Rani and Omega, those names are only really meaningful for hard-core fans, I think. I mean, I know a lot of people who watch and like Doctor Who, but they would have no idea who those characters are so bringing them back would be all but pointless and totally lacking in dramatic impact. I was never crazy about the Rani or Omega anyway, to be quite honest.
  • stafsstafs Posts: 1,540
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    Both the Rani and Omega can quite easily explained in a few lines of dialogue, so I don't think it's a real problem to bring those back, you don't really need to know what's gone before. The Valeyard is a different matter,

    I've watched every episode from Tom Baker when originally aired and seen every episode ever broadcast when repeated and even I have difficulty understanding the Valeyard, so I think he is only truly really meaningful to the true hardcore fan. As such, I would be very surprised if we ever saw him again.
  • TalmaTalma Posts: 10,520
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    DoctorQui wrote: »
    The most perplexing issue however, is that the Doctor has now indicated that he has inexcess of 500 regenerations:eek:

    Oh come on, the Doctor was batting questions from Clyde whilst crawling rapidly through an ventilation shaft and I took that as a throwaway remark along the 'if you keep asking questions you'll get silly answers'' line. Not only does the Doctor lie but he doesn't like talking about himself and will mislead people, including inquisitive young humans.:)
  • kitthekatkitthekat Posts: 338
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    Talma wrote: »
    Oh come on, the Doctor was batting questions from Clyde whilst crawling rapidly through an ventilation shaft and I took that as a throwaway remark along the 'if you keep asking questions you'll get silly answers'' line. Not only does the Doctor lie but he doesn't like talking about himself and will mislead people, including inquisitive young humans.:)

    That's what I took the line to mean too, but I don't think the production team will limit themselves to just two more regenerations of the Doctor after Matt Smith decides to leave, as long as the series is still popular- and now it's breaking America, I think that's a safe bet. They'll come up with some timey-wimey (or is that spacey-wacey now?) explanation to get around a Time Lord just having 13 regenerations, I'm sure.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 125
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    mattias wrote: »
    The Valeyard was originally intended to be a much darker and more 'adult' character. The original character was created by Eric Saward, the script editor at the time. In his version of things, the Doctor would definitely, between his penultimate and final incarnations, become the Valeyard, desperate to extend his life (for a similar example, check out the Master in The Keeper of Traken).

    John Nathan-Turner, who was the producer at the time, didn't like how dark this was, balking at the idea of having a story in which the hero is set on an inevitable path to becoming evil (although these days that seems to happen all the time!) They had a big falling-out over it and Eric Saward refused to allow any of his original script to be used.

    By this point though they'd already established that the Valeyard would be used across the whole arc. Pip and Jane Baker (the people responsible for creating the Rani!) were called in to write a replacement script which patched up the continuity explosion created by Saward pulling out.

    That's how we have the Valeyard as we understand him now - a sort of physical manifestation of the darkest side of the Doctor, a potential outcome from a desperate Doctor at the end of his life.

    Personally I think that the Valeyard is done and dusted - the Doctor's own encounter with him could potentially undo the whole thing as presumably the Doctor would be less likely to turn into him if he was prepared. With all the timey-wimey rewriting that goes on these days as well nothing's ever certain!

    Adding to the never-ending regeneration debate, at the time the 13th incarnation was considered the end of a Time Lord's life, so the 12-13 regeneration was used as the basis of his creation. Now that regenerations are more up in the air, who knows?

    In some ways the Dreamlord was a bit like the Valeyard as he too was a manifestation of the darkest side of the Doctor only he didn't have a physical presence like the valeyard.

    I have always thought the Valeyard would be an interesting character for the Show to revisit. The Doctors greatest ever and biggest threat being himself.
  • DoctorQuiDoctorQui Posts: 6,428
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    Talma wrote: »
    Oh come on, the Doctor was batting questions from Clyde whilst crawling rapidly through an ventilation shaft and I took that as a throwaway remark along the 'if you keep asking questions you'll get silly answers'' line. Not only does the Doctor lie but he doesn't like talking about himself and will mislead people, including inquisitive young humans.:)
    kitthekat wrote: »
    That's what I took the line to mean too, but I don't think the production team will limit themselves to just two more regenerations of the Doctor after Matt Smith decides to leave, as long as the series is still popular- and now it's breaking America, I think that's a safe bet. They'll come up with some timey-wimey (or is that spacey-wacey now?) explanation to get around a Time Lord just having 13 regenerations, I'm sure.

    Possibly, but its hardly a difficult question to answer is it, even under pressure so why lie on something so mundane and ordinary for a timelord?

    Believe me, I hate the idea of so many regenerations, but I think it was meant as exactly that:)
  • OrriOrri Posts: 9,470
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    In the Trial of a Timelord series with Colin Baker, the Master says that the Valeyard is created between the Doctor's 12th and 13th regenerations.


    "12th and Last" ,
    and yes it's sad that I remember the exact line.
  • MulettMulett Posts: 9,055
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    Not often you see the words 'Valeyard' and 'clarity' in the same sentence :)
  • ZariusZarius Posts: 176
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    I was never crazy about the Rani or Omega anyway, to be quite honest.

    Me too. Rani and Omega didnt really have good stories either, so I have to wonder why anyone would want them back...perhaps it's their concepts that make them appealing, I don't know
  • ListentomeListentome Posts: 9,804
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    In the Trial of a Timelord series with Colin Baker, the Master says that the Valeyard is created between the Doctor's 12th and 13th regenerations.

    David Tennant regenerated twice - this has been killing me. Does this mean that when the Doctor is killed in TIA that the Valeyard is created? Is the little girl the Valeyard? With the kill shot, does the little girl in the space suit take the regeneration energy?

    Or am I being a moron?

    Not a moron. :D

    However, I do think Doc10 actually only regenerated once. To 'regenerate' would mean to complete the cycle into a new incarnation. But when Doc10 used the regeneration energy to heal himself, he was healing his current incarnation, therefore remained Doc10, and Matt Smith is therefore Doc11.

    So when 11 starts to regenerate after being shot, if he had made it to a new body, it would have been his 12th incarnation.

    However, River clearly says the Doctor is killed before he could complete the regeneration cycle.

    Also, I don't think in production and story terms there is any doubt the current Doctor is the 11th incarnation, it is referred to enough. So we are still two full regenerations (11-12 and 12-13) and one incarnation (12) off seeing The Valeyard (if we do).
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