I said as much to someone the other night ... If he truly was trying to protect Reeva he would have made sure she was as far away as possible from any danger.
What made me really feel sick was the defence using Reeva's valentine message/card >:(>:( ... As if it was proof that OP wouldn't harm her >:(>:(
On the witness stand he only started to talk about making sure Reeva was safe after Nel had strongly pointed out to him that it was all about OP, and that everything in his life was about him with no mention of making sure Reeva was ok. I forget the actual words Nel used.
Sorry, but it is only a substantial period of time on OP's version.
Well I follow your two versions. They are the same two versions that I am considering. But neither will work because her heart count not survive either of the two periods of time.
I also follow that you want to believe that her heart was beating on the stairs to product the small amount of arterial spurts in places and the more powerful arterial spurts in other places related to OP carrying her down the stairs. But for that to realisticay be true OP had to have immediately broken down the door and immediately carried Reeva down the stairs. And then after whatever amount of time passed her carried her back up the stairs and waited for Stander and Baba to arrive to "formally" present her body. A of that does not work for me. It is much more logical to believe that by carrying her body step by step down the stairs OP exerted pressure on Reeva's body, enough pressure to move an amount of blood through her body and out of her severed arteries to produce the arterial spurt patterns.
Well I follow your two versions. They are the same two versions that I am considering. But neither will work because her heart count not survive either of the two periods of time.
I also follow that you want to believe that her heart was beating on the stairs to product the small amount of arterial spurts in places and the more powerful arterial spurts in other places related to OP carrying her down the stairs. But for that to realisticay be true OP had to have immediately broken down the door and immediately carried Reeva down the stairs. And then after whatever amount of time passed her carried her back up the stairs and waited for Stander and Baba to arrive to "formally" present her body. A of that does not work for me. It is much more logical to believe that by carrying her body step by step down the stairs OP exerted pressure on Reeva's body, enough pressure to move an amount of blood through her body and out of her severed arteries to produce the arterial spurt patterns.
It is not possible for a pattern of blood that an expert determines is arterial to be formed through compression of her arteries.
Not possible, James, unless Van der Nest is a clueless fool.
I think it's more likely that he took longer bringing her down than he has admitted to.
He wanted her out of that bathroom quickly. Clearly he didn't want her being attended to there for some reason (I DON'T believe he was told by anyone to take her to hospital).
So, the most likely explanation is that he got her out quickly, but spent quite a long time bringing her down.
Her heart was still beating, probably very weakly (that's why there are only a very few of these particular blood patterns) while he was on the stairs with her. But we don't actually know how long that was.
Er....then neither scenarios are possible are they? So there's some information we're lacking. Probably due to OP's curious memory failure of the time between picking her up and getting to the landing where he was spotted standing motionless by Baba?
I suspect he was on the stairs with Reeva for a while. Those arterial spurts were the last gasp of her failing heart.
The way I look at it is, he shot her and by his report I think, pulled her from the toilet.
Something would race through his mind, to the effect that even if he could save her they were both done for, related to she would never have normal brain function, and his life as he once knew it, was over.
So it would seem reasonable to me he stood there, until people came and got towels.
And the resuscitation efforts were either because people were watching or he desperately hoped to undo what had occurred.
Maybe that is a cynical view but sometimes in a terrible crisis people can become self-protective.
Otherwise you would be going crazy staunching blood and doing the CPR you probably learned as an athlete. Anyone would, whether it was going to work or not.
I suspected this - but has anyone got the timings?
3:00 First set of bangs. DT says these were the gunshots. It gets them away from OP / Reeva having been arguing, a motive to kill.
3:16 First calls to security about hearing gunshots.
3:18 45 OP calls Stander.
3:25 The Standers and Baba arrive to see OP standing at the top of the stairs with Reeva in his arms. OP then carries Reeva down the stairs.
Well I follow your two versions. They are the same two versions that I am considering. But neither will work because her heart count not survive either of the two periods of time.
I also follow that you want to believe that her heart was beating on the stairs to product the small amount of arterial spurts in places and the more powerful arterial spurts in other places related to OP carrying her down the stairs. But for that to realisticay be true OP had to have immediately broken down the door and immediately carried Reeva down the stairs. And then after whatever amount of time passed her carried her back up the stairs and waited for Stander and Baba to arrive to "formally" present her body. A of that does not work for me. It is much more logical to believe that by carrying her body step by step down the stairs OP exerted pressure on Reeva's body, enough pressure to move an amount of blood through her body and out of her severed arteries to produce the arterial spurt patterns.
You're right it would be logical IF arterial spurts could be produced in that way. But they can't. Perhaps you could break down your timeline because I'm not getting the nine minutes bit. I'll admit I was surprised by the continuing arterial spurts but it can't have been for more than a few minutes. We haven't actually heard a fully fleshed out version from the state yet and it looks like Nel is waiting until the closing argument to put forward a final version of how the door was broken down and Reeva carried downstairs. It must have been quite quick.
Nel asked OP about this when cross-exam was going on and OP said it was recorded at OP's current place of residence , and has yet to be played to the Court, it will be played to the Court during the Defence case
Oh my goodness... so they actually made a recording to play in court...
I'm suprised they didn't use a stand-in for the demonstration... (ok, I'm bad)
The way I look at it is, he shot her and, (by his report I think, pulled her from the toilet.
Something would race through his mind, to the effect that even if he could save her they were both done for, related to she would never have normal brain function, and his life as he once knew it, was over.
So it would seem reasonable to me he stood there, until people came and got towels.
And the resusicitation efforts were either because people were watching or he desperately hoped to undo what had occurred.
Maybe that is a cynical view but sometimes in a terrible crisis people can become self-protective.
Yes. He could have stood on the stairs for quite a while, unsure of what to actually do. I have no doubt that he was beside himself with horror and fear at that stage.
There's a documentary on YT with a brief interview with Perumel who said everyone agreed she died on the stairs & that's certainly what the blood spatter indicates.
Mr Baba said that when he got there, OP was standing motionless on the landing and did not start moving down until he saw them.
How do we know exactly what time Stander and Baba showed up?
3:00 First set of bangs. DT says these were the gunshots. It gets them away from OP / Reeva having been arguing, a motive to kill.
3:16 First calls to security about hearing gunshots.
3:18 45 OP calls Stander.
3:25 The Standers and Baba arrive to see OP standing at the top of the stairs with Reeva in his arms. OP then carries Reeva down the stairs.
How do we know exactly what time Stander and Baba got there? Are they estimating?
The next definite time we have is the call to the paramedics, isn't it?
3:00 First set of bangs. DT says these were the gunshots. It gets them away from OP / Reeva having been arguing, a motive to kill.
3:16 First calls to security about hearing gunshots.
3:18 45 OP calls Stander.
3:25 The Standers and Baba arrive to see OP standing at the top of the stairs with Reeva in his arms. OP then carries Reeva down the stairs.
So if OP got her out after calling standar, netcare baba, extremely easily, and the work of seconds, then he could have been holding her from 3.20? I make that four minutes and it's possible.
You're right it would be logical IF arterial spurts could be produced in that way. But they can't. Perhaps you could break down your timeline because I'm not getting the nine minutes bit. I'll admit I was surprised by the continuing arterial spurts but it can't have been for more than a few minutes. We haven't actually heard a fully fleshed out version from the state yet and it looks like Nel is waiting until the closing argument to put forward a final version of how the door was broken down and Reeva carried downstairs. It must have been quite quick.
I posted two links, one from a blood spatter expert and one from a medical doctor, both stated that a dead body can produce arterial spurts. The doctor said it could, but not for long, inferring to the coagulation that sets in after 15 minutes or so. And the blood spatter expert was clearly referring to reading the arterial spatter that is produced after death as being evidence that the victim's body had been moved.
I posted two links, one from a blood spatter expert and one from a medical doctor, both stated that a dead body can produce arterial spurts. The doctor said it could, but not for long, inferring to the coagulation that sets in after 15 minutes or so. And the blood spatter expert was clearly referring to reading the arterial spatter that is produced after death as being evidence that the victim's body had been moved.
If this is possible, then the defense blood spatter expert will say so.
However, it seems perfectly possible to me that he made the phone calls, got her out very quickly and then carried her around a bit and waited at the top of the stairs, isn't it possible?
I posted two links, one from a blood spatter expert and one from a medical doctor, both stated that a dead body can produce arterial spurts. The doctor said it could, but not for long, inferring to the coagulation that sets in after 15 minutes or so. And the blood spatter expert was clearly referring to reading the arterial spatter that is produced after death as being evidence that the victim's body had been moved.
No you are wrong. I don't want to be rude but you really don't understand the evidence you are quoting. I think we are going round in circles. You are free to believe what you want even if it flies in the face of science and expert testimony. I'm sure everyone has made their own conclusions by now.
BTW if your theory were correct (again it can't be) it would massively aid the defence. Perhaps you should contact Roux.
I posted two links, one from a blood spatter expert and one from a medical doctor, both stated that a dead body can produce arterial spurts. The doctor said it could, but not for long, inferring to the coagulation that sets in after 15 minutes or so. And the blood spatter expert was clearly referring to reading the arterial spatter that is produced after death as being evidence that the victim's body had been moved.
Neither of your links said what you are saying they did.
The doctor said arterial spatter was not possible after the heart stopped beating. Then said that if it happened it could only be for a very short time.
Do you understand, James, that arterial spatter has to have a beating heart. If not, then it cannot be arterial spatter. That doctor probably meant a second or two after cardiac arrest.
The blood spatter analyst said there were different types of ways blood could project - arterial spray being one. A body being moved is not the same thing as a dead body being moved.
Er....then neither scenarios are possible are they? So there's some information we're lacking. Probably due to OP's curious memory failure of the time between picking her up and getting to the landing where he was spotted standing motionless by Baba?
I suspect he was on the stairs with Reeva for a while. Those arterial spurts were the last gasp of her failing heart.
So, is this bit of evidence the smoking gun then, that everyone needed to prove his guilt?
It is not possible for a pattern of blood that an expert determines is arterial to be formed through compression of her arteries.
Not possible, James, unless Van der Nest is a clueless fool.
I think it's more likely that he took longer bringing her down than he has admitted to.
He wanted her out of that bathroom quickly. Clearly he didn't want her being attended to there for some reason (I DON'T believe he was told by anyone to take her to hospital).
So, the most likely explanation is that he got her out quickly, but spent quite a long time bringing her down.
Her heart was still beating, probably very weakly (that's why there are only a very few of these particular blood patterns) while he was on the stairs with her. But we don't actually know how long that was.
Could he not have broken the door but just used the key? He could have broken the door when he went back upstairs after the Standars, Dr Stipp and Baba arrived.
Yes. He could have stood on the stairs for quite a while, unsure of what to actually do. I have no doubt that he was beside himself with horror and fear at that stage.
There's a documentary on YT with a brief interview with Perumel who said everyone agreed she died on the stairs & that's certainly what the blood spatter indicates.
Mr Baba said that when he got there, OP was standing motionless on the landing and did not start moving down until he saw them.
How do we know exactly what time Stander and Baba showed up?
BIB. That is true! But when he gave that interview he had only the autopsy and OPs Affidavit. I remember reading that and it seemed clear that OP was running like mad to get her out and down the stairs and perform CPR, etc...
But now we have witness testimony and phone records that establish times for key things to have taken place. I suspect that is why Perumal, after a full year as a consultant, is now not going to sit in the box and repeat that story. It does not fit the known facts anymore.
It is not possible for a pattern of blood that an expert determines is arterial to be formed through compression of her arteries.
Not possible, James, unless Van der Nest is a clueless fool.
I think it's more likely that he took longer bringing her down than he has admitted to.
He wanted her out of that bathroom quickly. Clearly he didn't want her being attended to there for some reason (I DON'T believe he was told by anyone to take her to hospital).
So, the most likely explanation is that he got her out quickly, but spent quite a long time bringing her down.
Her heart was still beating, probably very weakly (that's why there are only a very few of these particular blood patterns) while he was on the stairs with her. But we don't actually know how long that was.
He needed her dead if he felt a heart, he would need to hang around (She was most likely Brain Dead but he can't take that risk).
He needed her out of the Bathroom as he needed to get back up to muddy the scene some more.
He may have hung around at the top of the Stairs so he could enact a Theatrical entrance as the about to be Witnesses arrived at the scene.
BIB. That is true! But when he gave that interview he had only the autopsy and OPs Affidavit. I remember reading that and it seemed clear that OP was running like mad to get her out and down the stairs and perform CPR, etc...
But now we have witness testimony and phone records that establish times for key things to have taken place. I suspect that is why Perumal, after a full year as a consultant, is now not going to sit in the box and repeat that story. It does not fit the known facts anymore.
Why not?
Why can't OP have killed Reeva, made the calls and then picked her up and took her to the landing?
That would be possible after all. And she could still have a faintly beating heart at four minutes.
BIB. That is true! But when he gave that interview he had only the autopsy and OPs Affidavit. I remember reading that and it seemed clear that OP was running like mad to get her out and down the stairs and perform CPR, etc...
But now we have witness testimony and phone records that establish times for key things to have taken place. I suspect that is why Perumal, after a full year as a consultant, is now not going to sit in the box and repeat that story. It does not fit the known facts anymore.
James - do you know how we know exactly the time that Baba & Stander showed up? Are they estimating, or is there phone records that tell us?
I am not sure what you are getting at by the way - it does fit the known facts.
Here's the thing. You, I and (probably) the other people on the thread are not pathologists or blood analyst experts. We're not. We cannot just decide what bits of evidence we're going to go along with because it suits our ill-informed opinions.
Experts are experts for a reason. Either we listen to them or we go off into fantasy land and make up our own evidence.
The facts presented by the experts:
Saayman and Botha both say Reeva took 2/3 breaths
Van der Nest says he found arterial spurts on the stairs
Ergo, Reeva was moved very quickly after the final headshot.
I don't know to the minute how long it was. I don't know the rate at which she lost blood and how that affected her physiologically. I don't know how long OP took breaking down the door then bringing her downstairs.
The only thing I do know is that she didn't have a beating heart for long after her shot her.
Two scenarios:
[He shoots her at 3am, spends 15 minutes screaming, breaks down the door, cries for a few minutes then brings her down
Or
He shoots her at 3.15. Makes couple of calls. Opens the door, brings her down
Which is more likely?
That's enough for me.
Exactly only thing than remotely fits. If we were on basis that OP always lies or distorts the truth also fits.
I said as much to someone the other night ... If he truly was trying to protect Reeva he would have made sure she was as far away as possible from any danger.
What made me really feel sick was the defence using Reeva's valentine message/card >:(>:( ... As if it was proof that OP wouldn't harm her >:(>:(
BIB - Cringe worthy, isn't it? And I'm going to try to erase it from my mind.
Given why OP's on trial, I hope to go back to the quote from a text message Reeva sent OP which has, up to now, been the one replaying in my head daily:
"I can't be attacked by outsiders for dating u AND be attacked by you, the person I deserve protection from." [Quote Bolded by Fox}
Could he not have broken the door but just used the key? He could have broken the door when he went back upstairs after the Standars, Dr Stipp and Baba arrived.
That's interesting. Maybe, yes.
Maybe it was never actually locked, and Reeva was holding it closed which accounts for her position behind the door, angled towards the handle.
He made a hole in it when he was scaring her. Shot her, pulled her out & took her down. Went back up, broke out some panels using the hole that was already there and put the key in.
This would explain his desperation to get her out of the bathroom.
I always thought the key looked odd. It has a green tag on it that looks like the ones you hang on keys that are being stored.
Comments
On the witness stand he only started to talk about making sure Reeva was safe after Nel had strongly pointed out to him that it was all about OP, and that everything in his life was about him with no mention of making sure Reeva was ok. I forget the actual words Nel used.
Well I follow your two versions. They are the same two versions that I am considering. But neither will work because her heart count not survive either of the two periods of time.
I also follow that you want to believe that her heart was beating on the stairs to product the small amount of arterial spurts in places and the more powerful arterial spurts in other places related to OP carrying her down the stairs. But for that to realisticay be true OP had to have immediately broken down the door and immediately carried Reeva down the stairs. And then after whatever amount of time passed her carried her back up the stairs and waited for Stander and Baba to arrive to "formally" present her body. A of that does not work for me. It is much more logical to believe that by carrying her body step by step down the stairs OP exerted pressure on Reeva's body, enough pressure to move an amount of blood through her body and out of her severed arteries to produce the arterial spurt patterns.
It is not possible for a pattern of blood that an expert determines is arterial to be formed through compression of her arteries.
Not possible, James, unless Van der Nest is a clueless fool.
I think it's more likely that he took longer bringing her down than he has admitted to.
He wanted her out of that bathroom quickly. Clearly he didn't want her being attended to there for some reason (I DON'T believe he was told by anyone to take her to hospital).
So, the most likely explanation is that he got her out quickly, but spent quite a long time bringing her down.
Her heart was still beating, probably very weakly (that's why there are only a very few of these particular blood patterns) while he was on the stairs with her. But we don't actually know how long that was.
The way I look at it is, he shot her and by his report I think, pulled her from the toilet.
Something would race through his mind, to the effect that even if he could save her they were both done for, related to she would never have normal brain function, and his life as he once knew it, was over.
So it would seem reasonable to me he stood there, until people came and got towels.
And the resuscitation efforts were either because people were watching or he desperately hoped to undo what had occurred.
Maybe that is a cynical view but sometimes in a terrible crisis people can become self-protective.
Otherwise you would be going crazy staunching blood and doing the CPR you probably learned as an athlete. Anyone would, whether it was going to work or not.
You would not just ask God to help you.
3:00 First set of bangs. DT says these were the gunshots. It gets them away from OP / Reeva having been arguing, a motive to kill.
3:16 First calls to security about hearing gunshots.
3:18 45 OP calls Stander.
3:25 The Standers and Baba arrive to see OP standing at the top of the stairs with Reeva in his arms. OP then carries Reeva down the stairs.
You're right it would be logical IF arterial spurts could be produced in that way. But they can't. Perhaps you could break down your timeline because I'm not getting the nine minutes bit. I'll admit I was surprised by the continuing arterial spurts but it can't have been for more than a few minutes. We haven't actually heard a fully fleshed out version from the state yet and it looks like Nel is waiting until the closing argument to put forward a final version of how the door was broken down and Reeva carried downstairs. It must have been quite quick.
Oh my goodness... so they actually made a recording to play in court...
I'm suprised they didn't use a stand-in for the demonstration... (ok, I'm bad)
Yes. He could have stood on the stairs for quite a while, unsure of what to actually do. I have no doubt that he was beside himself with horror and fear at that stage.
There's a documentary on YT with a brief interview with Perumel who said everyone agreed she died on the stairs & that's certainly what the blood spatter indicates.
Mr Baba said that when he got there, OP was standing motionless on the landing and did not start moving down until he saw them.
How do we know exactly what time Stander and Baba showed up?
How do we know exactly what time Stander and Baba got there? Are they estimating?
The next definite time we have is the call to the paramedics, isn't it?
So if OP got her out after calling standar, netcare baba, extremely easily, and the work of seconds, then he could have been holding her from 3.20? I make that four minutes and it's possible.
I posted two links, one from a blood spatter expert and one from a medical doctor, both stated that a dead body can produce arterial spurts. The doctor said it could, but not for long, inferring to the coagulation that sets in after 15 minutes or so. And the blood spatter expert was clearly referring to reading the arterial spatter that is produced after death as being evidence that the victim's body had been moved.
If this is possible, then the defense blood spatter expert will say so.
However, it seems perfectly possible to me that he made the phone calls, got her out very quickly and then carried her around a bit and waited at the top of the stairs, isn't it possible?
No you are wrong. I don't want to be rude but you really don't understand the evidence you are quoting. I think we are going round in circles. You are free to believe what you want even if it flies in the face of science and expert testimony. I'm sure everyone has made their own conclusions by now.
BTW if your theory were correct (again it can't be) it would massively aid the defence. Perhaps you should contact Roux.
Neither of your links said what you are saying they did.
The doctor said arterial spatter was not possible after the heart stopped beating. Then said that if it happened it could only be for a very short time.
Do you understand, James, that arterial spatter has to have a beating heart. If not, then it cannot be arterial spatter. That doctor probably meant a second or two after cardiac arrest.
The blood spatter analyst said there were different types of ways blood could project - arterial spray being one. A body being moved is not the same thing as a dead body being moved.
So, is this bit of evidence the smoking gun then, that everyone needed to prove his guilt?
BIB. That is true! But when he gave that interview he had only the autopsy and OPs Affidavit. I remember reading that and it seemed clear that OP was running like mad to get her out and down the stairs and perform CPR, etc...
But now we have witness testimony and phone records that establish times for key things to have taken place. I suspect that is why Perumal, after a full year as a consultant, is now not going to sit in the box and repeat that story. It does not fit the known facts anymore.
He needed her dead if he felt a heart, he would need to hang around (She was most likely Brain Dead but he can't take that risk).
He needed her out of the Bathroom as he needed to get back up to muddy the scene some more.
He may have hung around at the top of the Stairs so he could enact a Theatrical entrance as the about to be Witnesses arrived at the scene.
He needed thinking time.
Why not?
Why can't OP have killed Reeva, made the calls and then picked her up and took her to the landing?
That would be possible after all. And she could still have a faintly beating heart at four minutes.
James - do you know how we know exactly the time that Baba & Stander showed up? Are they estimating, or is there phone records that tell us?
I am not sure what you are getting at by the way - it does fit the known facts.
I think so, yes. I've always thought that. Nel will hammer this home in his closing argument because it proves OP can't be telling the truth.
Exactly only thing than remotely fits. If we were on basis that OP always lies or distorts the truth also fits.
thank goodness!
If the judge has been paying attention, he won't need to hammer it home will he?
BIB - Cringe worthy, isn't it? And I'm going to try to erase it from my mind.
Given why OP's on trial, I hope to go back to the quote from a text message Reeva sent OP which has, up to now, been the one replaying in my head daily:
"I can't be attacked by outsiders for dating u AND be attacked by you, the person I deserve protection from." [Quote Bolded by Fox}
That's interesting. Maybe, yes.
Maybe it was never actually locked, and Reeva was holding it closed which accounts for her position behind the door, angled towards the handle.
He made a hole in it when he was scaring her. Shot her, pulled her out & took her down. Went back up, broke out some panels using the hole that was already there and put the key in.
This would explain his desperation to get her out of the bathroom.
I always thought the key looked odd. It has a green tag on it that looks like the ones you hang on keys that are being stored.