To me, it resembles the Woman in White from The End of Time - i.e. a character being built up as being terribly important in the great and doom-laden events to follow, and then casually dismissed without any explanation or purpose.
Or indeed the 'importance' of Donna throughtout series 4, for example in the River Song episodes where they build up up and up, and then her destiny doesn't really go anywhere.
Or indeed the 'importance' of Donna throughtout series 4, for example in the River Song episodes where they build up up and up, and then her destiny doesn't really go anywhere.
Not quite the same - Donna had plenty of other things to do, and the thematic significance of her importance tied into her own feelings of self-worth, reinforced by her mother. Perhaps it wasn't as fully developed as it should have been, but it was there.
I guess one reason to have to Watcher is that the Master is a known regeneration stealer. It would be quite handy to have your regenerations stored in a place the Master isn't looking.
Some things can. If, in the course of a series of events, something unexpected happens that doesn't seem to be for any particular reason, you might go, "huh?" but it's soon forgotten.
However, when something is introduced prominently as a mysterious question right from the start, and is continually referred to and highlighted, we expect it to be resolved. If it's not, it comes across as poorly-thought through. It's hard to ignore the elephant in the room.
Some things can. If, in the course of a series of events, something unexpected happens that doesn't seem to be for any particular reason, you might go, "huh?" but it's soon forgotten.
However, when something is introduced prominently as a mysterious question right from the start, and is continually referred to and highlighted, we expect it to be resolved. If it's not, it comes across as poorly-thought through. It's hard to ignore the elephant in the room.
I don't see The Watcher as being totally unresolved. Where he came from, how he came into being and how he brought Nyssa to Logopolis are mysteries, yes, but otherwise, look at what we do know:
That he is a projection of The Doctor's future self, presumably his Fifth Incarnation. His motives, though we never hear him speak, is to warn The Doctor of the danger ahead and presumably his future regeneration as well, as the 4th Doctor's final words make it clear this must have been discussed. 'It's the end, but the moment has been prepared for.'
He then merges into The Doctor and Nyssa clarifies his identity by saying 'He was The Doctor all the time.'
So there you have it, some mysteries yes, but not totally unresolved.
Yes, the Watcher is a bit of an oddity. Difficult to see why something like that should occur in the lead-up to regeneration when it didn't usually.
I agree - The Watcher made Tom Baker's regeneration very odd and I can't understand why the made the regeneration so different with this strange character.
I agree, The Watcher does add a little certain something to Logopolis. the music used when he appears always gives me the chills because even on first viewing, you know it's tied into The Doctor's forthcoming regeneration somehow.
Far from wrecking the regeneration scene, it actually embellishes it and I love the way it was all done.
I agree the Watcher did add something to the story throughout. There's a bit I think where the 4th Doctor and the Watcher meet but they are seen from a distance ( by Nyssa ?)and I always wonder what they say to each other.
Does the 4th Doctor ask ' Will I be ginger next time ?';-):D
Yeah I really wanted to hear that conversation between the Doctor and the Watcher. He seemed to fill the Doctor in on what was happening, he's quite a handy commodity to have around it seems.
The Doctor's regeneration practically stalking him throughout the story was delightfully eerie.
I wasn't really bothered about the lack of explanation. Some see it as an easy way out but I see it as the show allowing people to come up with their own interpretation, getting them involved in the story. I think the problem nowadays is that people want things handed on a plate to them, having every detail explained, which kind of takes away some of the mystery and doesn't really challenge you as a viewer.
Maybe more TV shows should do it since people always come up with their own explanations anyway, and they end up disappointed if the actual one is anything less than what they imagined.
I also really wish we could have seen The Doctor flooding the Tardis like he intended to do, it would have been hilarious. Seeing a bunch of fish swimming around the console room would have made my life complete.
IMO the most epic of the classic series, not even 5's was as good!
Rubbish, nothing can beat all those heads flying around the Doctor and then the Master appearing and saying "No, my dear Doctor, you must die! Die, Doctor! Die, Doctor!". Shame about what followed immediately after but hey ho...
I assume it wasn't Peter Davison playing the watcher the whole time during Logopolis?
I don't mind The Watcher at all. Every regeneration was different back in the day anyway so the inconsistency was consistent.
I used to think that it was because Tom had played the role so long that the 5th Doctor had got impatient and turned up a little early to nudge him along a bit. But now that Matt's been the Doctor for hundreds of even thousands of years that's sort of blown that theory out of the water.
The fact is in those days we never cared. In fact weirdly I just watched that episode again few months ago and because it was Classic Who didn't even question it now.
If Moffat had done that now the internet would have exploded. Its maybe a good thing the internet wasn't around in those days although I would like to have seen what would have happened when the Liquorice Allsorts thing came on screen
I agree the Watcher did add something to the story throughout. There's a bit I think where the 4th Doctor and the Watcher meet but they are seen from a distance ( by Nyssa ?)and I always wonder what they say to each other.
Does the 4th Doctor ask ' Will I be ginger next time ?';-):D
I wasn't really bothered about the lack of explanation. Some see it as an easy way out but I see it as the show allowing people to come up with their own interpretation, getting them involved in the story. I think the problem nowadays is that people want things handed on a plate to them, having every detail explained, which kind of takes away some of the mystery and doesn't really challenge you as a viewer.
Maybe more TV shows should do it since people always come up with their own explanations anyway, and they end up disappointed if the actual one is anything less than what they imagined.
I often wonder if RTD based the Woman In White from The End Of Time on the Watcher to a degree. (Maybe she was The Watcher's Mother?!!!:D) It was the same sort of thing, cropping up unexpectedly but the differences being she could speak and that she was far more enigmatic and nobody knows for sure who she really is.
Rubbish, nothing can beat all those heads flying around the Doctor and then the Master appearing and saying "No, my dear Doctor, you must die! Die, Doctor! Die, Doctor!". Shame about what followed immediately after but hey ho...
The Caves Of Androzani is a better story but I do prefer the regeneration in Logopolis. It's one of my favourite moments in Classic Who as it introduced my favourite Doctor.
I agree - The Watcher made Tom Baker's regeneration very odd and I can't understand why the made the regeneration so different with this strange character.
To be fair, for Tom Baker's regeneration it was merely a question of adding continuity with the previous regeneration story.
As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, the idea of a watcher, although it wasn't called that, was introduced in Jon Pertwee's last story, Planet of the Spiders.
A Time Lord named K'anpo, who was apparently the Doctor's mentor on Gallifrey, regenerated at the end of the story and throughout the story we had seen a character called Cho-Je who turned out to be K'anpo's future regenerated form. When K'anpo regenerated Cho-Je disappeared and K'anpo regenerated into him.
There was no such character for Jon Pertwee to regenerate into, however, so obviously the idea was not supposed to be something that happened every time a Time Lord regenerated. In fact, the Doctor may not have regenerated at all without a little psychic 'push' from the newly regenerated K'anpo. It's possible that the idea of the Cho-Je character was to explain why K'anpo hadn't needed a push for his own regeneration. Cho-Je was the push.
Prior to that the Doctor had always had a kind of push. For the first regeneration the TARDIS helped him regenerate. For the second, the Time Lords forced the regeneration.
So really, it was only after the Tom Baker regeneration that the continuity got lost a bit.
What exactly was the watcher? I looked it up on wiki but didn't quite understand
It does say that that it remains a mystery why the writers ever came up with The Watcher - has it ever been revealed in interviews etc? And why do you think The Watcher has never been seen since?
In the "extended universe", the Watcher has been seen since (or at least heard since) in the Big Finish audio Circular Time. But that story just raises more questions than it answers...
In the "extended universe", the Watcher has been seen since (or at least heard since) in the Big Finish audio Circular Time. But that story just raises more questions than it answers...
The recent Trial of the Valyard audio mentioned watchers too. At one point it was questioned whether the Valyard might be a watcher but the suggestion was discounted on the grounds that he didn't look like a watcher!
I used to think that it was because Tom had played the role so long that the 5th Doctor had got impatient and turned up a little early to nudge him along a bit. But now that Matt's been the Doctor for hundreds of even thousands of years that's sort of blown that theory out of the water.
Don't worry, you can hold on to your theory. Remember, Matt's Doctor was out of regenerations, so there wouldn't have been a "watcher" to nudge him along. He had nowhere to be nudged to other than the grave. The moment he got the ability to regenerate again, he regenerated immediately.
To be fair, for Tom Baker's regeneration it was merely a question of adding continuity with the previous regeneration story.
As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, the idea of a watcher, although it wasn't called that, was introduced in Jon Pertwee's last story, Planet of the Spiders.
A Time Lord named K'anpo, who was apparently the Doctor's mentor on Gallifrey, regenerated at the end of the story and throughout the story we had seen a character called Cho-Je who turned out to be K'anpo's future regenerated form. When K'anpo regenerated Cho-Je disappeared and K'anpo regenerated into him.
There was no such character for Jon Pertwee to regenerate into, however, so obviously the idea was not supposed to be something that happened every time a Time Lord regenerated. In fact, the Doctor may not have regenerated at all without a little psychic 'push' from the newly regenerated K'anpo. It's possible that the idea of the Cho-Je character was to explain why K'anpo hadn't needed a push for his own regeneration. Cho-Je was the push.
Prior to that the Doctor had always had a kind of push. For the first regeneration the TARDIS helped him regenerate. For the second, the Time Lords forced the regeneration.
So really, it was only after the Tom Baker regeneration that the continuity got lost a bit.
I didn't realise that the Time Lord who appeared in Planet of The Spiders was a watcher as well. I haven't seen any Jon Pertwee episodes for years. So, really some kind of push should have been needed for the next regenerations?
In the "extended universe", the Watcher has been seen since (or at least heard since) in the Big Finish audio Circular Time. But that story just raises more questions than it answers...
I didn't realise The Watcher had been mentioned in an audio story - this is interesting. I wonder what happened to Adrian Gibbs, who played him. He doesn't seem to have done much since.
ROWLS - I love your story-telling! You've got such wit!! My sort of humour that is....I like writing stuff like that for a laugh. Please give us some more 'Classic' chapters!
I didn't realise that the Time Lord who appeared in Planet of The Spiders was a watcher as well. I haven't seen any Jon Pertwee episodes for years. So, really some kind of push should have been needed for the next regenerations?
He wasn't called a watcher but it seemed to be the same concept.
Regeneration often seems to lead to complications for the Doctor (even the one with the Watcher) so it makes sense that there are mechanisms that can help (the TARDIS, the Zero Room, the Elixirs of the Sisterhood of Karn). The Watcher seems to be one more such mechanism although what causes it to happen some times and not others has never been explained.
I can see why they use the same effect for every regeneration now for consistency but I must admit that I do miss the way that each regeneration was different in the classic series. Just makes it a bit more predictable now, you know roughly what you're going to get each time. A bit of a light show and some morphing.
I can see why they use the same effect for every regeneration now for consistency but I must admit that I do miss the way that each regeneration was different in the classic series. Just makes it a bit more predictable now, you know roughly what you're going to get each time. A bit of a light show and some morphing.
I agree with you totally. I always preferred it when each regeneration was a bit different as you said.
To be fair, for Tom Baker's regeneration it was merely a question of adding continuity with the previous regeneration story.
As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, the idea of a watcher, although it wasn't called that, was introduced in Jon Pertwee's last story, Planet of the Spiders.
A Time Lord named K'anpo, who was apparently the Doctor's mentor on Gallifrey, regenerated at the end of the story and throughout the story we had seen a character called Cho-Je who turned out to be K'anpo's future regenerated form. When K'anpo regenerated Cho-Je disappeared and K'anpo regenerated into him.
There was no such character for Jon Pertwee to regenerate into, however, so obviously the idea was not supposed to be something that happened every time a Time Lord regenerated. In fact, the Doctor may not have regenerated at all without a little psychic 'push' from the newly regenerated K'anpo. It's possible that the idea of the Cho-Je character was to explain why K'anpo hadn't needed a push for his own regeneration. Cho-Je was the push.
Prior to that the Doctor had always had a kind of push. For the first regeneration the TARDIS helped him regenerate. For the second, the Time Lords forced the regeneration.
So really, it was only after the Tom Baker regeneration that the continuity got lost a bit.
Where does Romana's regeneration from Mary Tamm to Lalla Ward fit in. How was she able to choose her appearance? Did she just throw away a regeneration for vanity purposes?
Comments
Or indeed the 'importance' of Donna throughtout series 4, for example in the River Song episodes where they build up up and up, and then her destiny doesn't really go anywhere.
Not quite the same - Donna had plenty of other things to do, and the thematic significance of her importance tied into her own feelings of self-worth, reinforced by her mother. Perhaps it wasn't as fully developed as it should have been, but it was there.
And River is what River is.
On a second point why does it need explaining?
Why can't some things just remain unresolved?
Some things can. If, in the course of a series of events, something unexpected happens that doesn't seem to be for any particular reason, you might go, "huh?" but it's soon forgotten.
However, when something is introduced prominently as a mysterious question right from the start, and is continually referred to and highlighted, we expect it to be resolved. If it's not, it comes across as poorly-thought through. It's hard to ignore the elephant in the room.
I don't see The Watcher as being totally unresolved. Where he came from, how he came into being and how he brought Nyssa to Logopolis are mysteries, yes, but otherwise, look at what we do know:
That he is a projection of The Doctor's future self, presumably his Fifth Incarnation. His motives, though we never hear him speak, is to warn The Doctor of the danger ahead and presumably his future regeneration as well, as the 4th Doctor's final words make it clear this must have been discussed. 'It's the end, but the moment has been prepared for.'
He then merges into The Doctor and Nyssa clarifies his identity by saying 'He was The Doctor all the time.'
So there you have it, some mysteries yes, but not totally unresolved.
I agree - The Watcher made Tom Baker's regeneration very odd and I can't understand why the made the regeneration so different with this strange character.
I agree the Watcher did add something to the story throughout. There's a bit I think where the 4th Doctor and the Watcher meet but they are seen from a distance ( by Nyssa ?)and I always wonder what they say to each other.
Does the 4th Doctor ask ' Will I be ginger next time ?';-):D
The Doctor's regeneration practically stalking him throughout the story was delightfully eerie.
I wasn't really bothered about the lack of explanation. Some see it as an easy way out but I see it as the show allowing people to come up with their own interpretation, getting them involved in the story. I think the problem nowadays is that people want things handed on a plate to them, having every detail explained, which kind of takes away some of the mystery and doesn't really challenge you as a viewer.
Maybe more TV shows should do it since people always come up with their own explanations anyway, and they end up disappointed if the actual one is anything less than what they imagined.
I also really wish we could have seen The Doctor flooding the Tardis like he intended to do, it would have been hilarious. Seeing a bunch of fish swimming around the console room would have made my life complete.
Rubbish, nothing can beat all those heads flying around the Doctor and then the Master appearing and saying "No, my dear Doctor, you must die! Die, Doctor! Die, Doctor!". Shame about what followed immediately after but hey ho...
I don't mind The Watcher at all. Every regeneration was different back in the day anyway so the inconsistency was consistent.
I used to think that it was because Tom had played the role so long that the 5th Doctor had got impatient and turned up a little early to nudge him along a bit. But now that Matt's been the Doctor for hundreds of even thousands of years that's sort of blown that theory out of the water.
If Moffat had done that now the internet would have exploded. Its maybe a good thing the internet wasn't around in those days although I would like to have seen what would have happened when the Liquorice Allsorts thing came on screen
'I don't want to go?'!!!!!
I often wonder if RTD based the Woman In White from The End Of Time on the Watcher to a degree. (Maybe she was The Watcher's Mother?!!!:D) It was the same sort of thing, cropping up unexpectedly but the differences being she could speak and that she was far more enigmatic and nobody knows for sure who she really is.
The Caves Of Androzani is a better story but I do prefer the regeneration in Logopolis. It's one of my favourite moments in Classic Who as it introduced my favourite Doctor.
You're right, he was played by an actor called Adrian Gibbs, whom I believe had appeared earlier in the Season in Full Circle, not sure who as though.
To be fair, for Tom Baker's regeneration it was merely a question of adding continuity with the previous regeneration story.
As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, the idea of a watcher, although it wasn't called that, was introduced in Jon Pertwee's last story, Planet of the Spiders.
A Time Lord named K'anpo, who was apparently the Doctor's mentor on Gallifrey, regenerated at the end of the story and throughout the story we had seen a character called Cho-Je who turned out to be K'anpo's future regenerated form. When K'anpo regenerated Cho-Je disappeared and K'anpo regenerated into him.
There was no such character for Jon Pertwee to regenerate into, however, so obviously the idea was not supposed to be something that happened every time a Time Lord regenerated. In fact, the Doctor may not have regenerated at all without a little psychic 'push' from the newly regenerated K'anpo. It's possible that the idea of the Cho-Je character was to explain why K'anpo hadn't needed a push for his own regeneration. Cho-Je was the push.
Prior to that the Doctor had always had a kind of push. For the first regeneration the TARDIS helped him regenerate. For the second, the Time Lords forced the regeneration.
So really, it was only after the Tom Baker regeneration that the continuity got lost a bit.
In the "extended universe", the Watcher has been seen since (or at least heard since) in the Big Finish audio Circular Time. But that story just raises more questions than it answers...
The recent Trial of the Valyard audio mentioned watchers too. At one point it was questioned whether the Valyard might be a watcher but the suggestion was discounted on the grounds that he didn't look like a watcher!
Don't worry, you can hold on to your theory. Remember, Matt's Doctor was out of regenerations, so there wouldn't have been a "watcher" to nudge him along. He had nowhere to be nudged to other than the grave. The moment he got the ability to regenerate again, he regenerated immediately.
Or perhaps the crack was Matt's "watcher." Hmm.
I didn't realise that the Time Lord who appeared in Planet of The Spiders was a watcher as well. I haven't seen any Jon Pertwee episodes for years. So, really some kind of push should have been needed for the next regenerations?
I didn't realise The Watcher had been mentioned in an audio story - this is interesting. I wonder what happened to Adrian Gibbs, who played him. He doesn't seem to have done much since.
He wasn't called a watcher but it seemed to be the same concept.
Regeneration often seems to lead to complications for the Doctor (even the one with the Watcher) so it makes sense that there are mechanisms that can help (the TARDIS, the Zero Room, the Elixirs of the Sisterhood of Karn). The Watcher seems to be one more such mechanism although what causes it to happen some times and not others has never been explained.
I agree with you totally. I always preferred it when each regeneration was a bit different as you said.
Where does Romana's regeneration from Mary Tamm to Lalla Ward fit in. How was she able to choose her appearance? Did she just throw away a regeneration for vanity purposes?