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Small FM Transmitters

Hi, could anyone please advise on what sort of thing could be used in the UK for having music for Xmas light displays so people can hear it on their car radio when they come to see.? Looking at about 50 -75ft range so an ipad type transmillter is far too small. Any ideas? Thanks.
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    Nigel GoodwinNigel Goodwin Posts: 58,524
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    It's HIGHLY illegal, and you could be fined, equipment confiscated (including EVERYTHING even vaguely relevant - such as your CD collection and stereo!), and even jail time.

    So don't even think about it.
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    technologisttechnologist Posts: 13,382
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    The law .. WT act 2006
    Is very clear
    8Licences and exemptions

    (1)It is unlawful—
    (a)to establish or use a wireless telegraphy station, or
    (b)to instal or use wireless telegraphy apparatus,except under and in accordance with a licence (a “wireless telegraphy licence”) granted under this section by OFCOM.
    See http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/36/contents
    And chapter 4 tell you of the penalties ..
    And they can be vast.... And involve a lot more people than just you....
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    JamesEJamesE Posts: 6,456
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    But you can buy little transmitters, legally, to play music from a device (e.g. mp3 player) which can be picked up on your car radio. They have enough range that someone outside your house could pick it up. I've used one, coupled up to a sat receiver in a French gite, to play Radio 4 all around the house so that I could listen on the landlord's various radios.
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    technologisttechnologist Posts: 13,382
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    But to operate a transmitter as you have just stated is an offence under section 8
    The use of deregulated short range FM transmitters is very strict.... And fir connecting to car radios only and certainly not for broadcasting to recievers you do not own and or to other people.
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    wavy-davywavy-davy Posts: 7,122
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    To do what you want you'd need to put a sign up in your window with the frequency on it which is pretty dodgy imo.
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    Deacon1972Deacon1972 Posts: 8,171
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    Get a small brass band playing outside, will draw more people to the area than some random music playing over the airwaves with no guarantee everyone passing will hear it.
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    oilmanoilman Posts: 4,529
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    You can actually create an fm radio transmitter with a raspberry pi and a single piece of wire.

    It works well. Range is around 20m.

    I leave it to you to judge legality, and risk.
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    chrisjrchrisjr Posts: 33,282
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    It's HIGHLY illegal, and you could be fined, equipment confiscated (including EVERYTHING even vaguely relevant - such as your CD collection and stereo!), and even jail time.

    So don't even think about it.

    And to add to this. If the music being played is subject to copyright then you need a PRS licence to play it legally for reception by members of the public. And the PRS has form for going after anybody playing music to the public without a licence, even playing a radio in your office can attract their attention if there is more than one person in the room!
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    Mark CMark C Posts: 20,920
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    The law .. WT act 2006
    Is very clear

    See http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/36/contents
    And chapter 4 tell you of the penalties ..
    And they can be vast.... And involve a lot more people than just you....

    Indeed, though Ofcom can't be arsed (or afford) to enforce the law, the FM band in London and many other cites is full of illegal junk. Folk with tiny FM Txs are way off the radar. I've had one running for 15 years now, about a 20m range, no knock on the door yet.
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    max_dbmax_db Posts: 3,892
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    I think the small iPod type transmitters were legalised in 2007 to transmit around 10nW or something like that. You do not need a license to operate one and can use it as you wish.
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    ShimanoShimano Posts: 603
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    It's HIGHLY illegal, and you could be fined, equipment confiscated (including EVERYTHING even vaguely relevant - such as your CD collection and stereo!), and even jail time.

    So don't even think about it.

    Bull. And unnecessary scaremongering. :confused:

    OP should just go for it - 75ft range isn't causing ANY problem to man or beast and Ofcom are hardly going to know it's going on from that distance, not exactly county-wide coverage is it.
    As someone else in this thread has already mentioned, it's way off the radar so I'd just go ahead. I know someone who ran a decent, popular and clean FM station a couple of years back broadcasting a radius of about 12 miles for pretty much 3 years and only stopped due to personal circumstances changing. It will likely return again at some point in the future.

    I'm sure the whiter-than-white do-gooders in this thread have never exceeded 30mph in a 30 limit, never used a phone whilst driving, never littered in public etc....
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    Nigel GoodwinNigel Goodwin Posts: 58,524
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    Shimano wrote: »
    Bull. And unnecessary scaremongering. :confused:

    Not at all, it's a fairly serious offence, and easily caught - particularly as any affected neighbours are likely to report your illegal transmissions.
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    max_dbmax_db Posts: 3,892
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    Not at all, it's a fairly serious offence, and easily caught - particularly as any affected neighbours are likely to report your illegal transmissions.

    Not if you are using an FM transmitter like the iPod type, they are no longer illegal in this country and haven't been for getting on 10 years.
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    Thine WonkThine Wonk Posts: 17,190
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    Shimano wrote: »
    Bull. And unnecessary scaremongering. :confused:

    OP should just go for it - 75ft range isn't causing ANY problem to man or beast and Ofcom are hardly going to know it's going on from that distance, not exactly county-wide coverage is it.
    As someone else in this thread has already mentioned, it's way off the radar so I'd just go ahead. I know someone who ran a decent, popular and clean FM station a couple of years back broadcasting a radius of about 12 miles for pretty much 3 years and only stopped due to personal circumstances changing. It will likely return again at some point in the future.

    I'm sure the whiter-than-white do-gooders in this thread have never exceeded 30mph in a 30 limit, never used a phone whilst driving, never littered in public etc....

    Yeah sod it, let the chap have his FM transmitter running, who cares about the broadcasters who've paid good money to use that band and have professionally set up licenced equipment.

    Who cares about the fact that aircraft navigation beacons are used just above the FM band, so what it if interferes.

    Let's not bother to apply for an RSL licence. After all the OP could only end up being fined and have all his equipment confiscated if somebody does report him Ofcom certainly won't have far to look will they as it'll be obvious which door to go to.

    http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/enforcement/spectrum-enforcement/illegalbroadcast/


    Here are the enforcement statistics http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/enforcement/spectrum-enforcement/stats/
    3. What are the offences and the penalties?
    Anyone involved with illegal broadcasting is committing a criminal offence and may be arrested by the police and end up in court. Offences are punishable by an unlimited fine or up to two years’ imprisonment, or both.
    Offences include using or installing equipment, allowing premises to be used for illegal broadcasting, and advertising on unlicensed stations or offering any other services to them.
    Please see the Wireless Telegraphy Act 2006 for more details.
    4. What does Ofcom do about illegal broadcasting?
    Ofcom has powers to investigate unlicensed broadcasting stations and to prosecute those involved. We have powers to seize evidence, including wireless telegraphy apparatus, enter and search premises.
    Ofcom will offer advice and assistance, and where appropriate investigate, where we receive reports of harmful interference by illegal broadcast stations from consumers and citizens. For obvious reasons, we take particularly seriously complaints of interference caused by illegal broadcasts which affect critical or emergency services.
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    chrisjrchrisjr Posts: 33,282
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    max_db wrote: »
    Not if you are using an FM transmitter like the iPod type, they are no longer illegal in this country and haven't been for getting on 10 years.

    That is true. However their primary use is to connect an iPod or similar device to an in car stereo that has no auxiliary audio connection for your own personal use. Not to broadcast your music to all and sundry which would require appropriate licences.
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    Mark CMark C Posts: 20,920
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    chrisjr wrote: »
    That is true. However their primary use is to connect an iPod or similar device to an in car stereo that has no auxiliary audio connection for your own personal use. Not to broadcast your music to all and sundry which would require appropriate licences.

    There are plenty for sale that have a 3.5mm input plug, so you can connect whatever you like, but yes, anything that involves 'broadcasting to others' is a no no.
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    Mark CMark C Posts: 20,920
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    Thine Wonk wrote: »
    Yeah sod it, let the chap have his FM transmitter running, who cares about the broadcasters who've paid good money to use that band and have professionally set up licenced equipment.

    Who cares about the fact that aircraft navigation beacons are used just above the FM band, so what it if interferes.

    Let's not bother to apply for an RSL licence. After all the OP could only end up being fined and have all his equipment confiscated if somebody does report him Ofcom certainly won't have far to look will they as it'll be obvious which door to go to.

    Well, I do hope you do not have any extraneous random RF being emitted from your house at present, but I'm sure you've conducted a proper test with a spectrum analyser ?
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    Thine WonkThine Wonk Posts: 17,190
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    Mark C wrote: »
    Well, I do hope you do not have any extraneous random RF being emitted from your house at present, but I'm sure you've conducted a proper test with a spectrum analyser ?

    No not at all, however I haven't set up my own FM transmitter which could cause interference with licensed broadcast services for my neighbours or other radio services like VOR beacons which broadcast from 108, just from the top end of the FM band, which is why Ofcom restrict power and location at the top end of the dial.

    If I did, I would expect a chance of a complaint being made to Ofcom (especially if I was making a noise about a radio broadcast publicly and posting details about it telling people).

    If Ofcom do investigate (as they do over in nearly 400 cases of illegal broadcasts a year), then I would expect a knock at the door. If as I'm not a trained broadcast engineer I screw up and cause interference or issues, that knock at the door might be with the police in the form of a raid. I could face criminal charges, fines and have all my equipment taken.

    Luckily I am not knowingly running any illegal services, the only RF I'm running is at 2.4Ghz or 5.0Ghz in the form of Wifi (unlicensed spectrum), and 2100Mhz and 1800Mhz transceiver in the form of my mobile phone, that is unless a dodgy switch mode power supply is kicking out a bit of noise.
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    Nigel GoodwinNigel Goodwin Posts: 58,524
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    max_db wrote: »
    Not if you are using an FM transmitter like the iPod type, they are no longer illegal in this country and haven't been for getting on 10 years.

    We know, but we're not discussing those - we're discussing a far higher powered device which a much greater range (although we're still talking pretty low power, it's still just as illegal as a high power device).
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    ShimanoShimano Posts: 603
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    We know, but we're not discussing those - we're discussing a far higher powered device which a much greater range (although we're still talking pretty low power, it's still just as illegal as a high power device).

    The OP quoted a miniscule desired coverage of approx 50-75ft in his original post which does not constitute a 'far higher powered' device. Certainly nowhere near enough power to block out aviation comms or interfere with a modern TV set.
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    Thine WonkThine Wonk Posts: 17,190
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    Shimano wrote: »
    The OP quoted a miniscule desired coverage of approx 50-75ft in his original post which does not constitute a 'far higher powered' device. Certainly nowhere near enough power to block out aviation comms or interfere with a modern TV set.

    Will the OP be buying a good quality transmitter? presumably he'll be able to check the frequency it is broadcasting this 75ft range is correct and that the ariel used is correct, that the frequency is actually the correct one and that there's not a fault somewhere that would cause interference?

    What wattage is the OP going to use for that 75ft range? just a guess?

    If the OP is going to promote it publicly, isn't that a risk?

    I'd recommend if they want to do it, then they do it properly and apply for a 30 day RSL licence and have the transmitter hired and set up by a professional company.

    SRSL cost is £400 for the application, then further licencing costs. You'll need to then get the equipment and it'll need to comply with the conditions of the licence, you'll need to record all output for the days broadcast and keep it on file for 42 days afterwards.

    All of these rules are in place to make sure that public broadcasts do not interfere with other services and are used responsibly, suitable for broadcast.
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    Thine WonkThine Wonk Posts: 17,190
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    To the OP, just to say I think it's a lovely idea by the way, it is just not legally possible unless you're going to pay out hundreds of pounds for an RSL.

    The only other thing I can think of is 1 of those ipod FM transmitters, but maybe a foil dish or some way of making it transmit more outwards to the street, maybe even running one outside on a battery from a tree or something?
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    Mark CMark C Posts: 20,920
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    Thine Wonk wrote: »
    Will the OP be buying a good quality transmitter? presumably he'll be able to check the frequency it is broadcasting this 75ft range is correct and that the ariel used is correct, that the frequency is actually the correct one and that there's not a fault somewhere that would cause interference?

    What wattage is the OP going to use for that 75ft range? just a guess?

    About a microwatt, do the maths,

    http://www.daycounter.com/Calculators/Maximum-Field-Strength-Calculator.phtml

    1 microwatt gives 50 dBuV/m (enough for clean mono) at 20 metres

    It's really not worth worrying about, any spurious emission (assuming a totally crap design) will be down on that level, which is why Ofcom made such devices licence exempt. Other domestic appliances kick out just as much level, all over the spectrum, and the world hasn't stopped turning.
    Thine Wonk wrote: »
    If the OP is going to promote it publicly, isn't that a risk?

    Yes, of course if someone reports it, and there's always someone that will, so best avoided on those grounds. It'll be way down Ofcom's list, if there is any prosecution it'll be from the PRS I suspect.
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