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Amateurs Politics a case in point Greece
Alexis Tsipras and his party Syriza are quickly becoming a case in point of what happens when a bunch of amateurs are allowed to run a country. It is not so much about the Greek exit but the way they have conducted themselves.
They came to power riding on the wave of a popular vote. Making promises in reality they had no hope of keeping. You can say what you like but talk is cheap actions cost money. They don't have the money and seem determined to try and blackmail the rest of europe in bank rolling their countries early retirement ages, poor tax management and a struggling economic situation.
Rather than taking any responsibility for the situation they just sit back blaming the rest of europe who lets not forget are lending them money to help them out. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you. Why not call for a public vote and not mention to anyone lending you the money.
Alex's Tsipras twitter is the insane ramblings of man going into war not someone who by tomorrow could lead a country in default and a total collapse of the bank system.
https://mobile.twitter.com/tsipras_eu
The have a finance minister Yanis Varoufakis whos previous job was with a game company. Oh he is a bit edgy rocking up to meetings on a bike. However style is one thing leading a country into default you need someone who is more than a peacock strolling around the grounds.
Looking the reports from the europe team they are a bunch of crazy unprofessional clueless idiots. They seem to pander to their own voters but fail to tell them the truth what a total mess it will be if they default. They have it seems a firm view the rest of europe wont let them fail. In reality the rest of europe are so fed up with them if given the vote they would be kicked out.
I think the lesson from a Greek exit will be that voters should not trust in any party that promises the earth but have no plan to believe. They are amateurs messing up life for the people of Greece.
They came to power riding on the wave of a popular vote. Making promises in reality they had no hope of keeping. You can say what you like but talk is cheap actions cost money. They don't have the money and seem determined to try and blackmail the rest of europe in bank rolling their countries early retirement ages, poor tax management and a struggling economic situation.
Rather than taking any responsibility for the situation they just sit back blaming the rest of europe who lets not forget are lending them money to help them out. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you. Why not call for a public vote and not mention to anyone lending you the money.
Alex's Tsipras twitter is the insane ramblings of man going into war not someone who by tomorrow could lead a country in default and a total collapse of the bank system.
https://mobile.twitter.com/tsipras_eu
The have a finance minister Yanis Varoufakis whos previous job was with a game company. Oh he is a bit edgy rocking up to meetings on a bike. However style is one thing leading a country into default you need someone who is more than a peacock strolling around the grounds.
Looking the reports from the europe team they are a bunch of crazy unprofessional clueless idiots. They seem to pander to their own voters but fail to tell them the truth what a total mess it will be if they default. They have it seems a firm view the rest of europe wont let them fail. In reality the rest of europe are so fed up with them if given the vote they would be kicked out.
I think the lesson from a Greek exit will be that voters should not trust in any party that promises the earth but have no plan to believe. They are amateurs messing up life for the people of Greece.
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The EU is also a bunch of crazy unprofessional idiots.
Something, somewhere has/had to be done about the whole 'too big to fail' motto.
Congratulations on the Greek people for having some balls and putting a party in place that will just tell the Troika to piss off.
Sometimes things just to have to fail and burn to the ground before something new and better can be built in its place.
20th/21st century pseudo corporatist-capitalism and the nature of fractional reserve banking have gone wholly unquestioned for far too long.
True, but the far left and far right may want to desroy things so they get their desired version of utopia. Lenin didn't get there by supporting moderate revolutionaries and policies, nor did Pol Pot. Nor is it only amateurs who believe silly things. Its also a well known psychological problem that people who realise they are in a hole often can't believe it, and dig a deeper one, trying some cunning plan to get out.
And just how many lives and livelihoods have to be ruined before you prove how corrupt capitalism is? Sure, capitalism has its moral faults, but you don't go about trying to prove that by making the lives and livelihoods of millions a misery in the process. Further, what good is it replace one form of dogma (capitalism), with another (socialism)?
How many lives and livelihoods, presently and composed of future generations will be ruined by carrying on with the status quo?
People like you make this point but forget about the pigs ear things are in now. Yes, the Middle Classes are well looked after, but have you ever been at the raw end of it on benefits or in some awful, underpaid job living in some damp, shitty house? Or even without a house at all?
The system doesn't actually work for a big chunk of people.
For the record, I have nothing against micro-capitalism in its rawest form. My objection is the way that big-business and greedy billionaires control pretty much everything 'de-facto' because they bribe, buy and lobby their way into politics and government and inter-government institutions like the IMF and the EU. Greedy, arrogant arseholes with vested interests run the banks, the big political parties, the largest corporations, the TV and print media and as a result, the fundamental things such as the money supply and democracy itself.
It's just not on.
If Greece does default who do you think will suffer the most ? The IMF ? The EU ? the billionaires with their off shore bank accounts? or the average person in the street ?
You want to see the system fall and start again. You have any idea how many times Greece has defaulted in the past ? their new system is going to look at lot like the old system. A lack of money and investment will see the Greek economic structure fall even further behind in rest of Europe. The moment the default they will have to borrow money to pay wages, they need power supply from Italy to be paid. They will need to import goods into the country.
Or do you expect them to go back to some medieval lifestyle were they all live of the land ?
I could go tell my bank to take a run and jump for the rest of my mortgage. Yes down with the system. The problem is I am then likely to lose my house and end up on the street. Then as I cannot work I lose my job so now I am homeless without a job but at least I beat the system right ?
I would be fully behind him sticking to fingers up to the IMF and Eu if he had a plan. Think about they default write off the loans then on day 2 they are back in debt again . how is that fixing the problem ?
Oh absolutely the average person in the street - but by that I mean the average middle class person in the street; the average ND and PASOK voter; broadly the equivalent of the average Labour/Tory voter here.
Don't forget, the reason SYRIZA were elected was because a big swathe of lower/working class people have already lost everything. They can't realistically lose much more.
Maybe now the ND and PASOK voters will realise what they were voting for, and will experience the same hardship that SYRIZA voters are used to.
Too much fuss is made over capital controls. They can still withdraw up to £50 a day, but many people don't have £50 a day to withdraw anyway!
It's a long process but without the support of the middle classes, the upper classes would crumble.
Greece is the first. They are the petri-dish for this, but if Podemos in Spain and others replicate the SYRIZA success, eventually even the billionaires will have nowhere to hide. Their position is only cemented by having a fairly beefy middle class to keep them in power.
Sure, it's going to be massively hard... but the message there is you can't expect rampant corporatist-capitalism to work sustainably in the long term.
That's what all this is about; it's a massive 'correction' on a sort of 'bubble', the biggest bubble in human history in many ways.
No, we have progressed beyond that but society in general should live within its means, and that means every member of society, both environmentally and economically.
I honestly don't know what the future holds, but I would hope in the next 100-150 years that all people in all countries have a fundamentally different way of life whereby we much more carefully account for our use of everything to prevent wastage and maximise efficiency.
If everybody did it, the system would collapse and everybody would still have housing. It would be impossible to evict you if your whole street decided to do this. Scale that up to the whole country and well, imagine for yourself...
I'm not saying that's the answer, by the way, but you are looking at it in too smaller microcosm of detail. This is all about big changes happening very gradually that will set us up for sustainability and longevity in the future.
But that assumes there would be this push to go back to 'business as usual'.
I don't think it will ever be 'business as usual' again. This is what I mean by maybe you and others need to see complete implosion of the status quo before you can believe that things can be different, that humans can work together to create sustainable, democratic societies that don't rely on fractional reserve banking, money-creation via debt and everything that goes along with it.
Who knows, maybe the Troika wont actually let any of this happen, and will cave in and carry on giving the banks liquidity assistance? It's certainly a possibility as the people very high up know exactly where this will all lead.
Even if they do, it will only prolong the inevitable by 20 years or so though.
Forget all the anti-austerity buzz words the left love so much and examine the raw facts.
The Greeks have the most generous state pension scheme in the EU but they don't like paying taxes. This creates a huge deficit. Are the German banks supposed to go on funding this gap for ever?
If they get booted out of the Euro for not paying their debts who on earth is going to accept the new Dracma?
UK Chancellor of the Exchequer
Plus previous jobs of entering data on a computer and refolding towels at Selfridges
Now, tell me who is better at understanding economics and running an economy.
Well let me see.... Is it the man running an economy into bankruptcy or is it the man who has rescued an economy heading to bankruptcy... tough call!
The left are very good at glib soundbites but they forget that there is no such thing as a free lunch. If Greece doesn't collect enough tax to pay for its public services then eventually, tomorrow, it will go bust.
You are ignoring the fact that the ECB & IMF won't give the loan until Greece puts in place measure to rein in their deficit.
The party is over, it is time to clear up.
Austerity Capitalism was doing just fine at ruining the lives of the Greek people - that's why they elected the Syriza coalition to stop the misery imposed by the unelected Troika.
Sounds as though you are as well! ;-)
Party??! The majority of Greek people have been living in misery for the last few years.
Didn't you know?
Unelected Troika? Can you name a bank that is elected?
If the Greeks don't like the Troika's terms they are perfectly free to leave the Euro and borrow money elsewhere.
They won't of course because no one else will lend them any money.
The Greeks have to bite the bullet. They need to collect more taxes, they need to reduce public spending, they need to balance their books.
The wealthy individuals and business who refuse to pay their taxes and the governments who have let them get away with it have been having a party.
As in all financial disasters it is the poor who suffer the most.
That is why balancing the books is essential if you care about the poor.
Pity they didn't do that before accepting billions of euros of other people's money...
OOOOOH OOOOH I KNOW THIS ONE! The country with record employmnt, continuous growth, low inflation and austerity a fraction of Greece's?
Don't Greece's problems date from when they had professional politicians in charge?
Greece is run by "amateur politicians" and "The EU is also a bunch of crazy unprofessional idiots".
Should we worry ?
They have already loaned the money. The IMF broke its own rules to do so, and it did it - not for the benefit of Greece - but to attempt to prop up a Euro experiment that is just sheer lunacy.