Does that include guys who target drunk women who are quite incapable of giving meaningful consent? Women who are vulnerable in fact. Or is that fair game in hour opinion ?
Yes men need to also be educated about appropriate behaviour . The message is not getting across.
Are you serious? You think society hasnt got the message that rape is wrong? We must live in different worlds. In my world rape is the worst crime a man can be accused of and rapists have to be separated from other prisoners for their own safety. Even amongst the dregs of society, the ones with the loosest moral code rape is a crime that comes with such a tag that they are not safe in prison. Rape is second only to paedophilia isnt it. You will be telling us next that society doesnt realise that sexual conduct with children is not ok, that the message isnt getting across. Im sorry to say but i think you are delusional because you cant recognise reality when you see it
I agree with you. The term **** has been around forever and I think generally means women who have slept with an extremely high number of men, have one night stands very often, and generally have very loose morals.
I have known people describe women as sluts by what they wear. Although I don't think this is the right term for that, usually people would just call them a bit tarty I suppose.
This is all to do with double standards. Men can get away with this, whereas normally women would be judged by the same sort of behaviour.
In one way I think it's unfair, but in another way, I'm glad. I'd rather have a lot more dignity than a lot of men do, and don't want to think with my genitals like they do either!
I know that if i had a son and daughter, I probably would expect different behaviour patterns from them. I probably in that respect would be endorsing the double standard, but in truth, I'd feel differently about having a daughter that slept with a different bloke each week, than I would about a son who slept with a different woman each week.
Attitudes like this towards men and women don't help when it comes to rape.
a lot of us are rural with only one route, some don`t even have street lighting, where i grew still doesn`t and there certainly isn`t a taxi rank in most villages, or even a taxi firm.
Yeah I wasn't really talking about rural areas, but more of urban ones. I live an area with both.
I personally prefer to walk in rural areas, because there are less people about. There is something so peaceful about walking around daybreak, with the birds starting to sing.
Yeah I wasn't really talking about rural areas, but more of urban ones. I live an area with both.
I personally prefer to walk in rural areas, because there are less people about. There is something so peaceful about walking around daybreak, with the birds starting to sing.
yeah but if you`re a woman you can`t confidently go field walking alone and many nature reserves are prime spots for perverts.
here there`s at least two a week in the paper and last week it was a 15 year old walking a dog, broad daylight. i feel safer in a town in that respect.
Sorry to intervene but that's not what bratwurst was saying at all. I might not agree with what they are saying but you are trying to put words into their mouth here.
Are you serious? You think society hasnt got the message that rape is wrong? We must live in different worlds. In my world rape is the worst crime a man can be accused of and rapists have to be separated from other prisoners for their own safety. Even amongst the dregs of society, the ones with the loosest moral code rape is a crime that comes with such a tag that they are not safe in prison. Rape is second only to paedophilia isnt it. You will be telling us next that society doesnt realise that sexual conduct with children is not ok, that the message isnt getting across. Im sorry to say but i think you are delusional because you cant recognise reality when you see it
The poster said they need to be taught about appropriate behaviour, not rape. Obviously rape is wrong, but most rapists aren't convicted and a lot aren't even reported and therefore are seen in society as innocent. The man goes away feeling like he did nothing wrong. That is in part due to this attitude that it is partly the woman's fault because she was drunk etc.
Attitudes like this towards men and women don't help when it comes to rape.
I don't know what you mean by "attitudes". It is true that we have double standards. And it is true that men can enjoy boasting about how many women they've slept with, whereas if a woman was to own up to having slept with 50 men by the time she's 35, she would be most definitely judged, wouldn't she not?
If I were to meet a new boyfriend, and he had slept with 1 woman and i had slept with 14 men, do you think I'd own up to that? Of course I wouldn't. Whereas vice versa, then it would be fine for him to do so.
I may have wanted to have as much sexual freedom as i could get back in my teenage years and twenties. But do women in their late 30s really want to have the same sexual freedoms as men, and it be seen to be perfectly acceptable to sleep around wherever and whenever or do women want a bit more dignity for themselves....
Not sure why everyone is debating re this thread, and why there are people agreeing and disagreeing with each other....?
Meaning, are there posters who don't think that drunk women are more vulnerable in certain situations?
Are there posters who think that we shouldn't try to stay safe when we go out at night. That, that isn't our responsibility?
I thought we'd all be agreeing on that one!
The poster said they need to be taught about appropriate behaviour, not rape. Obviously rape is wrong, but most rapists aren't convicted and a lot aren't even reported and therefore are seen in society as innocent. The man goes away feeling like he did nothing wrong. That is in part due to this attitude that it is partly the woman's fault because she was drunk etc.
So you are saying that some rape goes unreported and society sees these unknown people as innocent - obviously. You also say that people who are cleared of rape are seen by society as innocent, well thats categorically wrong isnt it, and you must know it to be wrong, you cant have missed all the stories of the destroyed lives due to false allegations. You are just going to have to admit it, society knows rape is wrong, views it as one of the worst crimes a person can commit second only to pedophillia and there is no reason to target all men as "potential rapists" - everybody gets it
I don't know what you mean by "attitudes". It is true that we have double standards. And it is true that men can enjoy boasting about how many women they've slept with, whereas if a woman was to own up to having slept with 50 men by the time she's 35, she would be most definitely judged, wouldn't she not?
If I were to meet a new boyfriend, and he had slept with 1 woman and i had slept with 14 men, do you think I'd own up to that? Of course I wouldn't. Whereas vice versa, then it would be fine for him to do so.
I may have wanted to have as much sexual freedom as i could get back in my teenage years and twenties. But do women in their late 30s really want to have the same sexual freedoms as men, and it be seen to be perfectly acceptable to sleep around wherever and whenever or do women want a bit more dignity for themselves....
Not sure why everyone is debating re this thread, and why there are people agreeing and disagreeing with each other....?
Meaning, are there posters who don't think that drunk women are more vulnerable in certain situations?
Are there posters who think that we shouldn't try to stay safe when we go out at night. That, that isn't our responsibility?
I thought we'd all be agreeing on that one!
I wouldn't judge anybody for how many partners they had
Yes, society does know rape is wrong, but the bigger issue is knowing WHAT COUNTS AS RAPE. That's not so clear to everyone.
Young girls get taken advantage of and because it happened with someone they know and maybe even like, go on thinking it was normal and ok even if they didn't actively want it and tried to stop, but didn't want to cause a scene so eventually let it happen. Young guys are putting on their moves and the girl is "playing hard to get" trying to stop him taking her clothes off, but eventually his persistence pays off, perhaps she even needs a few more drinks to get her to relax a little, and he goes on thinking that was a successful attempt at seducing her instead of coercion.
Yes, men need to be educated about proper behaviour, and women need to be educated about their own rights, because these situations are frighteningly common.
So you are saying that some rape goes unreported and society sees these unknown people as innocent - obviously. You also say that people who are cleared of rape are seen by society as innocent, well thats categorically wrong isnt it, and you must know it to be wrong, you cant have missed all the stories of the destroyed lives due to false allegations. You are just going to have to admit it, society knows rape is wrong, views it as one of the worst crimes a person can commit second only to pedophillia and there is no reason to target all men as "potential rapists" - everybody gets it
I already did in my previous post. I don't think you understand what I'm saying. A man who drags a woman off the street and rapes her is obviously wrong but in most cases it's not so black and white. I don't know how the concept of consent is so hard for some people to understand but clearly it is, and saying she didn't take responsibility for herself because she drank too much is just another excuse to say it wasn't his fault. And FYI false allegations aren't that common. If it goes to court and he's cleared it's usually down to lack of evidence not false allegation.
I wouldn't judge anybody for how many partners they had
Yes but, most men do judge women on how many men they've slept with.
And to be quite honest, if my female colleague came in and told me she has a couple of one night stands every week, I'd be a liar if I said I didn't think she was a bit loose!
I wouldn't go so far as saying I judge them though.
Yes but, most men do judge women on how many men they've slept with.
And to be quite honest, if my female colleague came in and told me she has a couple of one night stands every week, I'd be a liar if I said I didn't think she was a bit loose!
I wouldn't go so far as saying I judge them though.
Calling a woman loose for engaging in pretty normal and harmless behaviour is judgemental though especially if you wouldn't think the same of a man who did. These men are sleeping with women so why is it different?
Most men I know don't adhere to the pathetic double standard. I think its unfair to generalise
What about telling Men not to rape and attack women, irrespective of how inebriated their victim might be? Why is the onus constantly put on women to stop getting hammered and not on Men to stop raping?
Absolutely.
Yes, I'm afraid since her despicable article post Stephen Gately's death, I find her abhorrent in the extreme.
For once I am in complete agreement Jason.
But rape is about power. Rapes happen when women are comatosed, paralytic and stone cold sober. How about saying explicitly to men 'Hey, don't rape women in any context - drunk or sober'?
Actually, it wouldn't. Telling women not to drink too much in case of attack and not to wear clothes that flaunt the body in case of attack is pretty much the same thing.
Do you think that men actually need to be told this? I would have thought that men know that rape is a crime! I doubt there is a man alive that doesn't realize rape is wrong....
It'd be a bit patronising to men wouldn't it?
Sorry to intervene but that's not what bratwurst was saying at all. I might not agree with what they are saying but you are trying to put words into their mouth here.
Intervene all you like. It certainly looked that way, re the post they were replying to and the film topic, but of course if I'm wrong, I apologise.
I'm putting a new kitchen in at the moment. On removal of the old fridge..... I think my wife would prefer the second definition. Though not the use of the word. It's the last resort of a woman hater. Or a mythical creature of course.
And that's the perfect and only time to clean under any fridge, or wherever it sat in it's muck and glory.
As for putting in a new kitchen, where do we find men like you? .........kudos:cool:
i`ve just remembered my friend`s rape by a local a few years ago, she`d been in the pub and went back for a smoke [he was known to her] and he attacked her, she agonised about going to the police [covered in bruises and bites] but her brother got on it so she did, it never went anywhere but the rapist`s girlfriend had plenty of nastiness to dish out.
and then she had to apologise a couple of years on when he admitted it.
three or four other friends have been drugged and raped by a bloke in the same circle - popular "lad" so again, no one`s reported owt, just avoided being alone with him.
there are plenty of others too, where they came from.
the community i live in has a population of about 7,000 when you count the adjoining village, i think men who rape are probably more common than we consider.
i`ve just remembered my friend`s rape by a local a few years ago, she`d been in the pub and went back for a smoke [he was known to her] and he attacked her, she agonised about going to the police [covered in bruises and bites] but her brother got on it so she did, it never went anywhere but the rapist`s girlfriend had plenty of nastiness to dish out.
and then she had to apologise a couple of years on when he admitted it.
three or four other friends have been drugged and raped by a bloke in the same circle - popular "lad" so again, no one`s reported owt, just avoided being alone with him.
there are plenty of others too, where they came from.
the community i live in has a population of about 7,000 when you count the adjoining village, i think men who rape are probably more common than we consider.
BIB - seriously?
Surely he should be reported to prevent attacks on anyone else...????!!
Surely he should be reported to prevent attacks on anyone else...????!!
yes, seriously. you can`t report a rape for someone else, it`s a crime that needs victim input. we`re all in a social circle of years standing, he`s a popular member of the body building/coke head gang, and one victim is now dead, two other`s are married now, it isn`t going to happen.
it`s not that abnormal in a village to ignore stuff or brush it under the carpet if your name or face fits.
edit: i could also mention the council worker i was attacked by in my own home who subsequently described it as "only a bit of fun".
Calling a woman loose for engaging in pretty normal and harmless behaviour is judgemental though.
The problem is what people regard as the norm. Many people don't see promiscuity as the norm. It's not their norm.
And **** is just another way of saying promiscuous in this context. A word is needed to describe it as it does exist, just as we need a word for monogamy, celibacy, abstinence etc. The stigma is attached to the behaviour not the word.
Back to the discussion on rape: of course prostututes are at high risk of rape as are those who go off with strangers after a few drinks. That doesn't mean they are responsible for their rape. They are not. But they a responsible for putting themselves in a high risk situation.
Clothes have nothing go to with incidence of rape of course. The issue is availability and vulnerability.
yes, seriously. you can`t report a rape for someone else, it`s a crime that needs victim input. we`re all in a social circle of years standing, he`s a popular member of the body building/coke head gang, and one victim is now dead, two other`s are married now, it isn`t going to happen.
it`s not that abnormal in a village to ignore stuff or brush it under the carpet if your name or face fits.
Sounds like some village, I must say. I just find it astonishing that whilst people are debating that 'women should do this, men should do that' there could ever be such a blase attitude to - by your own account - a serial rapist.
Sounds like some village, I must say. I just find it astonishing that whilst people are debating that 'women should do this, men should do that' there could ever be such a blase attitude to - by your own account - a serial rapist.
it`s in the independent or times, can`t recall top fifty of richest villages.
Yes, society does know rape is wrong, but the bigger issue is knowing WHAT COUNTS AS RAPE. That's not so clear to everyone.
Young girls get taken advantage of and because it happened with someone they know and maybe even like, go on thinking it was normal and ok even if they didn't actively want it and tried to stop, but didn't want to cause a scene so eventually let it happen. Young guys are putting on their moves and the girl is "playing hard to get" trying to stop him taking her clothes off, but eventually his persistence pays off, perhaps she even needs a few more drinks to get her to relax a little, and he goes on thinking that was a successful attempt at seducing her instead of coercion.
Yes, men need to be educated about proper behaviour, and women need to be educated about their own rights, because these situations are frighteningly common.
Now that is a good point.
Of course any man with an IQ above 30 knows rape is wrong - but then I'm typing this with an idea of what rape is (the man stalking the drunk stranger down an alley and then attacks). This rapist knows it's wrong, doesn't care, probably revels in it. That's their thrill.
You are right though - it includes a lot more than that and you've described that perfectly. Conduct should be a part of sexual education. It might help some of the instances you've described.
Of course, the rapist I've described will still exist, but anything which cuts down the number of rapes (of any type) is welcome.
Comments
Are you serious? You think society hasnt got the message that rape is wrong? We must live in different worlds. In my world rape is the worst crime a man can be accused of and rapists have to be separated from other prisoners for their own safety. Even amongst the dregs of society, the ones with the loosest moral code rape is a crime that comes with such a tag that they are not safe in prison. Rape is second only to paedophilia isnt it. You will be telling us next that society doesnt realise that sexual conduct with children is not ok, that the message isnt getting across. Im sorry to say but i think you are delusional because you cant recognise reality when you see it
Attitudes like this towards men and women don't help when it comes to rape.
or humanity, quite frankly.
I personally prefer to walk in rural areas, because there are less people about. There is something so peaceful about walking around daybreak, with the birds starting to sing.
yeah but if you`re a woman you can`t confidently go field walking alone and many nature reserves are prime spots for perverts.
here there`s at least two a week in the paper and last week it was a 15 year old walking a dog, broad daylight. i feel safer in a town in that respect.
The poster said they need to be taught about appropriate behaviour, not rape. Obviously rape is wrong, but most rapists aren't convicted and a lot aren't even reported and therefore are seen in society as innocent. The man goes away feeling like he did nothing wrong. That is in part due to this attitude that it is partly the woman's fault because she was drunk etc.
If I were to meet a new boyfriend, and he had slept with 1 woman and i had slept with 14 men, do you think I'd own up to that? Of course I wouldn't. Whereas vice versa, then it would be fine for him to do so.
I may have wanted to have as much sexual freedom as i could get back in my teenage years and twenties. But do women in their late 30s really want to have the same sexual freedoms as men, and it be seen to be perfectly acceptable to sleep around wherever and whenever or do women want a bit more dignity for themselves....
Not sure why everyone is debating re this thread, and why there are people agreeing and disagreeing with each other....?
Meaning, are there posters who don't think that drunk women are more vulnerable in certain situations?
Are there posters who think that we shouldn't try to stay safe when we go out at night. That, that isn't our responsibility?
I thought we'd all be agreeing on that one!
So you are saying that some rape goes unreported and society sees these unknown people as innocent - obviously. You also say that people who are cleared of rape are seen by society as innocent, well thats categorically wrong isnt it, and you must know it to be wrong, you cant have missed all the stories of the destroyed lives due to false allegations. You are just going to have to admit it, society knows rape is wrong, views it as one of the worst crimes a person can commit second only to pedophillia and there is no reason to target all men as "potential rapists" - everybody gets it
I wouldn't judge anybody for how many partners they had
Young girls get taken advantage of and because it happened with someone they know and maybe even like, go on thinking it was normal and ok even if they didn't actively want it and tried to stop, but didn't want to cause a scene so eventually let it happen. Young guys are putting on their moves and the girl is "playing hard to get" trying to stop him taking her clothes off, but eventually his persistence pays off, perhaps she even needs a few more drinks to get her to relax a little, and he goes on thinking that was a successful attempt at seducing her instead of coercion.
Yes, men need to be educated about proper behaviour, and women need to be educated about their own rights, because these situations are frighteningly common.
I already did in my previous post. I don't think you understand what I'm saying. A man who drags a woman off the street and rapes her is obviously wrong but in most cases it's not so black and white. I don't know how the concept of consent is so hard for some people to understand but clearly it is, and saying she didn't take responsibility for herself because she drank too much is just another excuse to say it wasn't his fault. And FYI false allegations aren't that common. If it goes to court and he's cleared it's usually down to lack of evidence not false allegation.
Even when taking lifts when young we never let one of our friends who was alone get dropped of last.
You can drink more in a safe environment (someone's home whom you know and trust) or when with an alloted driver than at other times etc.
And to be quite honest, if my female colleague came in and told me she has a couple of one night stands every week, I'd be a liar if I said I didn't think she was a bit loose!
I wouldn't go so far as saying I judge them though.
Calling a woman loose for engaging in pretty normal and harmless behaviour is judgemental though especially if you wouldn't think the same of a man who did. These men are sleeping with women so why is it different?
Most men I know don't adhere to the pathetic double standard. I think its unfair to generalise
Do you think that men actually need to be told this? I would have thought that men know that rape is a crime! I doubt there is a man alive that doesn't realize rape is wrong....
It'd be a bit patronising to men wouldn't it?
Intervene all you like. It certainly looked that way, re the post they were replying to and the film topic, but of course if I'm wrong, I apologise.
And that's the perfect and only time to clean under any fridge, or wherever it sat in it's muck and glory.
As for putting in a new kitchen, where do we find men like you? .........kudos:cool:
Cue a feminist attack!
and then she had to apologise a couple of years on when he admitted it.
three or four other friends have been drugged and raped by a bloke in the same circle - popular "lad" so again, no one`s reported owt, just avoided being alone with him.
there are plenty of others too, where they came from.
the community i live in has a population of about 7,000 when you count the adjoining village, i think men who rape are probably more common than we consider.
Surely he should be reported to prevent attacks on anyone else...????!!
yes, seriously. you can`t report a rape for someone else, it`s a crime that needs victim input. we`re all in a social circle of years standing, he`s a popular member of the body building/coke head gang, and one victim is now dead, two other`s are married now, it isn`t going to happen.
it`s not that abnormal in a village to ignore stuff or brush it under the carpet if your name or face fits.
edit: i could also mention the council worker i was attacked by in my own home who subsequently described it as "only a bit of fun".
And **** is just another way of saying promiscuous in this context. A word is needed to describe it as it does exist, just as we need a word for monogamy, celibacy, abstinence etc. The stigma is attached to the behaviour not the word.
Back to the discussion on rape: of course prostututes are at high risk of rape as are those who go off with strangers after a few drinks. That doesn't mean they are responsible for their rape. They are not. But they a responsible for putting themselves in a high risk situation.
Clothes have nothing go to with incidence of rape of course. The issue is availability and vulnerability.
i can`t do anything about it?
Now that is a good point.
Of course any man with an IQ above 30 knows rape is wrong - but then I'm typing this with an idea of what rape is (the man stalking the drunk stranger down an alley and then attacks). This rapist knows it's wrong, doesn't care, probably revels in it. That's their thrill.
You are right though - it includes a lot more than that and you've described that perfectly. Conduct should be a part of sexual education. It might help some of the instances you've described.
Of course, the rapist I've described will still exist, but anything which cuts down the number of rapes (of any type) is welcome.