The main problem is that there are too many dreamers who think they can create a billion dollar startup from their bedroom shop (or car) and become the next Twitter. There are still plenty of boring 9 to 5 jobs out there so that you can earn some money while working on your billion dollar idea.
This is literally true.
Startup office in car! Totally homeless.
That is where its going.
IT is in an awful mess
Only bits of it. The Clerkenwell Triangle operates in it's own reality field and is not entirely representative of the real world. Much of it is pretty much a repeat of the original .Com bubble which many of the hipsters are too young to remember. Or understanding why they're making much the same mistakes.
This contract is probably outside that reality bubble. Unless it's to develop the back-end for some highly ambitious social media*/pixel-crack pushing venture, then in which case may $deity have mercy on the contractor. In mobile app-space, nobody can hear you scream.
Rates on this contract are probably low as it's via a 'big' consultancy looking to keep it's margins tasty. Client will probably end up with someone who's been through some Oracle bootcamps with limited real experience.. Which can be a common challenge with stuff off-shored.
*
I still think there's a gap in the market for anti-social media. It'll be the perfect antidote for people fed up with spam from the conventional ones.
Only bits of it. The Clerkenwell Triangle operates in it's own reality field and is not entirely representative of the real world. Much of it is pretty much a repeat of the original .Com bubble which many of the hipsters are too young to remember. Or understanding why they're making much the same mistakes.
This contract is probably outside that reality bubble. Unless it's to develop the back-end for some highly ambitious social media*/pixel-crack pushing venture, then in which case may $deity have mercy on the contractor. In mobile app-space, nobody can hear you scream.
Rates on this contract are probably low as it's via a 'big' consultancy looking to keep it's margins tasty. Client will probably end up with someone who's been through some Oracle bootcamps with limited real experience.. Which can be a common challenge with stuff off-shored.
*
I still think there's a gap in the market for anti-social media. It'll be the perfect antidote for people fed up with spam from the conventional ones.
Nicely summed up! That is the whole problem of "hip" and happening mixed with "free movement"....We're all stuffed. Kids are financial idiots and EU people will follow them down and down in a ever decreasing spiral of economic "I can do it even cheaper" until everyone is sleeping in their car in a street trying to find an internet connection and whacking in PayPal buttons in a desperate attempt to get a few pounds.
I'm not doubting he needs to be biligial or be an expert in IT... I'm just staggered there are politicos who say there is an IT shortage in the UK and then you see ads like that... Clearly the politicos do not know their arses from their elbows.
You find one ad, and then decide to throw insults around.
You find one ad, and then decide to throw insults around.
Get a life.
I don't find one advert, its my living, I've been doing it 30 odd years, from IBM360 Assember , thru to C++/Cobol, then PL/SQL, then Java/C# and now finally AngularJs/NodeJs..
This is a typical permie ad for an INVESTMENT BANK in CENTRAL LONDON - they will try pay only £35K in central london for someone with good degree, Good knowledge of RDBMS; Oracle PL/SQL, SQL Server T-SQL, Thorough understanding of computing fundamentals and Object Orientated programming, Strong software development experience with Microsoft technologies including C# and the .NET Framework, ASP.NET MVC, WPF,
I know the REAL TRUTH - there is no UK Skills Shortage, its just that CAPITALIST and MONOPOLISTIC CORPORATIONS are not willing to pay a good middle class wage, because PENSION FUNDS want the max money to give to UK OLD PEOPLE.... It is the old that are doing the young in. Pension funds need to stand up and say "No! your pension will not be quite so good, but your grandchildren will make more money".
What do you want? a good pension or happy grandchildren - you cannot have both.
I don't find one advert, its my living, I've been doing it 30 odd years, from IBM360 Assember , thru to C++/Cobol, then PL/SQL, then Java/C# and now finally AngularJs/NodeJs..
This is a typical permie ad for an INVESTMENT BANK in CENTRAL LONDON - they will try pay only £35K in central london for someone with good degree, Good knowledge of RDBMS; Oracle PL/SQL, SQL Server T-SQL, Thorough understanding of computing fundamentals and Object Orientated programming, Strong software development experience with Microsoft technologies including C# and the .NET Framework, ASP.NET MVC, WPF,
I know the REAL TRUTH - there is no UK Skills Shortage, its just that CAPITALIST and MONOPOLISTIC CORPORATIONS are not willing to pay a good middle class wage, because PENSION FUNDS want the max money to give to UK OLD PEOPLE.... It is the old that are doing the young in. Pension funds need to stand up and say "No! your pension will not be quite so good, but your grandchildren will make more money".
What do you want? a good pension or happy grandchildren - you cannot have both.
Wow, I didn't see that coming. Now it's all the fault of the old!
I'm looking forward to seeing where the random HillmanImp arrow of blame lands next.
I've been on the employer side of this situation (assuming your unproven claim that this ad is part of the process to recruit an immigrant is correct). I knew an excellent person living in Brazil that wanted to move to the UK, and my employer wanted to hire him. The process was to place an ad that was so specific that no one in the UK could qualify, then we could make the job offer to the person I knew. In my example, he was paid the going rate for the job (and I don't see why an immigrant would agree to be paid half the correct salary).
The important thing was that there wasn't a vacancy for anyone else, UK or otherwise. Until we met this Brazilian person, and understood what he could bring to our business, there was no plan to recruit anyone. The objective was to get him, not just to fill a chair. He was certainly a net contributor to the UK, both financially, socially and culturally. He returned to Brazil after 3 years, and as far as I know paid a fortune in UK tax and never cost the UK a penny (no kids and I don't remember him ever taking a single day off sick, so I doubt he used the NHS).
Wow, I didn't see that coming. Now it's all the fault of the old!
I'm looking forward to seeing where the random HillmanImp arrow of blame lands next.
I've been on the employer side of this situation (assuming your unproven claim that this ad is part of the process to recruit an immigrant is correct). I knew an excellent person living in Brazil that wanted to move to the UK, and my employer wanted to hire him. The process was to place an ad that was so specific that no one in the UK could qualify, then we could make the job offer to the person I knew. In my example, he was paid the going rate for the job (and I don't see why an immigrant would agree to be paid half the correct salary).
The important thing was that there wasn't a vacancy for anyone else, UK or otherwise. Until we met this Brazilian person, and understood what he could bring to our business, there was no plan to recruit anyone. The objective was to get him, not just to fill a chair. He was certainly a net contributor to the UK, both financially, socially and culturally. He returned to Brazil after 3 years, and as far as I know paid a fortune in UK tax and never cost the UK a penny (no kids and I don't remember him ever taking a single day off sick, so I doubt he used the NHS).
Its a truism that there are always at least two sides to an argument (probably more)... So I don't diasgree with you. In SET THEORY you have to cater for your brazilan and also the negative impacts... There will be an optimum methodology of immigration control but alas it is a moving goal post.
I do not blame the old as individuals, but clearly they do want the best pension they can get. The real blame should be the pension funds who are being too short term profit and not looking at the very long term picture of the next generation of pensioners.
The important thing was that there wasn't a vacancy for anyone else, UK or otherwise. Until we met this Brazilian person, and understood what he could bring to our business, there was no plan to recruit anyone. The objective was to get him, not just to fill a chair. He was certainly a net contributor to the UK, both financially, socially and culturally. He returned to Brazil after 3 years, and as far as I know paid a fortune in UK tax and never cost the UK a penny (no kids and I don't remember him ever taking a single day off sick, so I doubt he used the NHS).
And that's what makes the UK, especially, London such a dynamic place to work. Young and talented people are attracted to work here. They are here for few years then most return home when they have made their money and gained experience. The UK economy benefits massively from this as, just as you say, they are net contributors.
I'm just about to leave for a meeting in London. The company I'm visiting has people working there from all over the world. It's a global economy and London is right at the centre of it.
The problem for people here is that they aren't just competing with other British people for jobs but with hundreds of millions in Europe and wider afield. The answer is to improve our own skills not to pull up the drawbridge.
£200 is very reasonable entry level and early career rate. 3-5yrs or so experience and you'd expect to see 300. 400 is where you are an experienced and reliable employee. 500 and above...well in my experience you have either blagged yourself into a great position (happens more often than you'd think - luckily most get found out quickish and their contract is not renewed) or you are very hot property.
£200 is very reasonable entry level and early career rate. 3-5yrs or so experience and you'd expect to see 300. 400 is where you are an experienced and reliable employee. 500 and above...well in my experience you have either blagged yourself into a great position (happens more often than you'd think - luckily most get found out quickish and their contract is not renewed) or you are very hot property.
500 to 550 and above normally means you've come in as an Oracle Consultant via Oracle.
550 to 700 you are the architect that sets up frameworks and everyone else asks your opinion - often a Cambridge Science Graduate (from my personal experience).
£200 is very reasonable entry level and early career rate. 3-5yrs or so experience and you'd expect to see 300. 400 is where you are an experienced and reliable employee. 500 and above...well in my experience you have either blagged yourself into a great position (happens more often than you'd think - luckily most get found out quickish and their contract is not renewed) or you are very hot property.
Contract rates are very different to permanent salary rates for the very reason they are paying for different things. A contractor isn't an employee and typically run their own business and thus pay their own pension, training etc and most pay 20% corporation tax.
However I suspect that the client has had problems recruiting and heard that contractors are easy to get in. What I further suspect is they've made the rookie mistake of taking the salary and dividing it by the number of days in the year thinking the costs will be the same. I can't see any reason that advertising as a contract would help in bringing in a foreigner.
Contract rates are very different to permanent salary rates for the very reason they are paying for different things. A contractor isn't an employee and typically run their own business and thus pay their own pension, training etc and most pay 20% corporation tax.
However I suspect that the client has had problems recruiting and heard that contractors are easy to get in. What I further suspect is they've made the rookie mistake of taking the salary and dividing it by the number of days in the year thinking the costs will be the same. I can't see any reason that advertising as a contract would help in bringing in a foreigner.
I think asking for a low rate and the bilingual clause probably means they have a specific EU national in mind but they did not want to break some employment law.
Not surprising that someone who continually espouses socialist principles is unaware of how a market sets value. The amount is correct or at least was a decade ago , although the rapid increase of foreign people have eroded the rates the work gets I would suggest those rates are more appropriate in the investment banking area than say.
I was getting £230 for Oracle Work in 1998 (for a generic drugs manufacturer in East London)
What on earth has any of this has to do with my question as to how much MPs should get?
wiki disagrees:
When used non-academically in the United States, for example, it often refers to a section of society dependent on physical labor, especially when compensated with an hourly wage. For certain types of science, as well as less scientific or journalistic political analysis, for example, the working class is loosely defined as those without college degrees.[3] Working-class occupations are then categorized into four groups: Unskilled laborers, artisans, outworkers, and factory workers.[4]
A common alternative, sometimes used in sociology, is to define class by income levels. When this approach is used, the working class can be contrasted with a so-called middle class on the basis of differential terms of access to economic resources, education, cultural interests, and other goods and services. The cut-off between working class and middle class here might mean the line where a population has discretionary income, rather than simply sustenance (for example, on fashion versus merely nutrition and shelter).
" By ALL these definitions IT is middle class. Sorry.
Occupation and income does not define social class, sorry.
I don't find one advert, its my living, I've been doing it 30 odd years, from IBM360 Assember , thru to C++/Cobol, then PL/SQL, then Java/C# and now finally AngularJs/NodeJs..
This is a typical permie ad for an INVESTMENT BANK in CENTRAL LONDON - they will try pay only £35K in central london for someone with good degree, Good knowledge of RDBMS; Oracle PL/SQL, SQL Server T-SQL, Thorough understanding of computing fundamentals and Object Orientated programming, Strong software development experience with Microsoft technologies including C# and the .NET Framework, ASP.NET MVC, WPF,
I know the REAL TRUTH - there is no UK Skills Shortage, its just that CAPITALIST and MONOPOLISTIC CORPORATIONS are not willing to pay a good middle class wage, because PENSION FUNDS want the max money to give to UK OLD PEOPLE.... It is the old that are doing the young in. Pension funds need to stand up and say "No! your pension will not be quite so good, but your grandchildren will make more money".
What do you want? a good pension or happy grandchildren - you cannot have both.
You have to use such words as "Middle Class" because people might not always understand why they are low... It kind of works for me. How would you have phrased it? (or are you not attempting to really be helpful?)
I think asking for a low rate and the bilingual clause probably means they have a specific EU national in mind but they did not want to break some employment law.
Another "I think...probably" post from you.
Why not actually think, and realise your ideas are rubbish.
If they wanted to employ an EU national, they can do it immediately. Maybe you have heard of "free movement of people", one or two people in these forums are obsessed with this concept, I'm surprised it slipped your incite-full mind.
The only time you need to jump through hoops is for a non-EU employee.
You have to use such words as "Middle Class" because people might not always understand why they are low... It kind of works for me. How would you have phrased it? (or are you not attempting to really be helpful?)
There is no such thing as a "middle class wage" any more than there is a working class wage.
Some middle class workers earn very little, while some working class employees are paid a lot.
This job is an advert for a highly qualified IT specialist...
Its contract (which normally means you should earn about double the permanent wage)
Its paying just £150-£200
You often see such adverts...
Is there some racket going on where firms pitch the rate so low that they then can say to government: "We could find no skilled local people so can we therefore get someone from outside the EU?"
There is no such thing as a "middle class wage" any more than there is a working class wage.
Some middle class workers earn very little, while some working class employees are paid a lot.
That is not really very helpful - your reply is a truism. I was asking how you would phrase it not what was wrong with my imperfect english. You're not going to help are you? Just a gut feeling. I guess I'm being heckled - silly me. i should have twigged earlier. Good heckle. Well done
There is no such thing as a "middle class wage" any more than there is a working class wage.
Some middle class workers earn very little, while some working class employees are paid a lot.
I hate to agree with the old class warrior GGP on this but he (she?!) has a point. I hate the labels of class but you can't just divide people up on what they earn.
That is not really very helpful - your reply is a truism. I was asking how you would phrase it not what was wrong with my imperfect english. You're not going to help are you? Just a gut feeling. I guess I'm being heckled - silly me. i should have twigged earlier. Good heckle. Well done
I am not speaking of your English, but of you referring to the concept of a middle class wage. You also previously said "IT is middle class".
Both comments don't make sense, as a person's class is not determined by the job they are employed to do, so there can't be a middle class wage. And to say a particular field like IT is middle class is patently absurd.
Comments
Sounds on the high end, but well done!
The tax man takes so much, you have to charge a sensible rate.
The main problem is that there are too many dreamers who think they can create a billion dollar startup from their bedroom shop (or car) and become the next Twitter. There are still plenty of boring 9 to 5 jobs out there so that you can earn some money while working on your billion dollar idea.
Only bits of it. The Clerkenwell Triangle operates in it's own reality field and is not entirely representative of the real world. Much of it is pretty much a repeat of the original .Com bubble which many of the hipsters are too young to remember. Or understanding why they're making much the same mistakes.
This contract is probably outside that reality bubble. Unless it's to develop the back-end for some highly ambitious social media*/pixel-crack pushing venture, then in which case may $deity have mercy on the contractor. In mobile app-space, nobody can hear you scream.
Rates on this contract are probably low as it's via a 'big' consultancy looking to keep it's margins tasty. Client will probably end up with someone who's been through some Oracle bootcamps with limited real experience.. Which can be a common challenge with stuff off-shored.
*
Nicely summed up! That is the whole problem of "hip" and happening mixed with "free movement"....We're all stuffed. Kids are financial idiots and EU people will follow them down and down in a ever decreasing spiral of economic "I can do it even cheaper" until everyone is sleeping in their car in a street trying to find an internet connection and whacking in PayPal buttons in a desperate attempt to get a few pounds.
You find one ad, and then decide to throw insults around.
Get a life.
I don't find one advert, its my living, I've been doing it 30 odd years, from IBM360 Assember , thru to C++/Cobol, then PL/SQL, then Java/C# and now finally AngularJs/NodeJs..
This is a typical permie ad for an INVESTMENT BANK in CENTRAL LONDON - they will try pay only £35K in central london for someone with good degree, Good knowledge of RDBMS; Oracle PL/SQL, SQL Server T-SQL, Thorough understanding of computing fundamentals and Object Orientated programming, Strong software development experience with Microsoft technologies including C# and the .NET Framework, ASP.NET MVC, WPF,
Basically they want the kitchen sink but are not willing to pay (if they can get away with it)
http://www.jobserve.com/gb/en/search-jobs-in-London,-London,-United-Kingdom/CSHARP-DEVELOPER-ASPDOTNET-TIER-1-BANK-137F6146CDDBD54F/
I know the REAL TRUTH - there is no UK Skills Shortage, its just that CAPITALIST and MONOPOLISTIC CORPORATIONS are not willing to pay a good middle class wage, because PENSION FUNDS want the max money to give to UK OLD PEOPLE.... It is the old that are doing the young in. Pension funds need to stand up and say "No! your pension will not be quite so good, but your grandchildren will make more money".
What do you want? a good pension or happy grandchildren - you cannot have both.
Wow, I didn't see that coming. Now it's all the fault of the old!
I'm looking forward to seeing where the random HillmanImp arrow of blame lands next.
I've been on the employer side of this situation (assuming your unproven claim that this ad is part of the process to recruit an immigrant is correct). I knew an excellent person living in Brazil that wanted to move to the UK, and my employer wanted to hire him. The process was to place an ad that was so specific that no one in the UK could qualify, then we could make the job offer to the person I knew. In my example, he was paid the going rate for the job (and I don't see why an immigrant would agree to be paid half the correct salary).
The important thing was that there wasn't a vacancy for anyone else, UK or otherwise. Until we met this Brazilian person, and understood what he could bring to our business, there was no plan to recruit anyone. The objective was to get him, not just to fill a chair. He was certainly a net contributor to the UK, both financially, socially and culturally. He returned to Brazil after 3 years, and as far as I know paid a fortune in UK tax and never cost the UK a penny (no kids and I don't remember him ever taking a single day off sick, so I doubt he used the NHS).
Its a truism that there are always at least two sides to an argument (probably more)... So I don't diasgree with you. In SET THEORY you have to cater for your brazilan and also the negative impacts... There will be an optimum methodology of immigration control but alas it is a moving goal post.
I do not blame the old as individuals, but clearly they do want the best pension they can get. The real blame should be the pension funds who are being too short term profit and not looking at the very long term picture of the next generation of pensioners.
And that's what makes the UK, especially, London such a dynamic place to work. Young and talented people are attracted to work here. They are here for few years then most return home when they have made their money and gained experience. The UK economy benefits massively from this as, just as you say, they are net contributors.
I'm just about to leave for a meeting in London. The company I'm visiting has people working there from all over the world. It's a global economy and London is right at the centre of it.
The problem for people here is that they aren't just competing with other British people for jobs but with hundreds of millions in Europe and wider afield. The answer is to improve our own skills not to pull up the drawbridge.
500 to 550 and above normally means you've come in as an Oracle Consultant via Oracle.
550 to 700 you are the architect that sets up frameworks and everyone else asks your opinion - often a Cambridge Science Graduate (from my personal experience).
Or you are a specialist with rare skills.
However I suspect that the client has had problems recruiting and heard that contractors are easy to get in. What I further suspect is they've made the rookie mistake of taking the salary and dividing it by the number of days in the year thinking the costs will be the same. I can't see any reason that advertising as a contract would help in bringing in a foreigner.
I think asking for a low rate and the bilingual clause probably means they have a specific EU national in mind but they did not want to break some employment law.
What on earth has any of this has to do with my question as to how much MPs should get?
How does the "market" set value on that Paul?
Occupation and income does not define social class, sorry.
BIB - A nonsensical phrase.
Another "I think...probably" post from you.
Why not actually think, and realise your ideas are rubbish.
If they wanted to employ an EU national, they can do it immediately. Maybe you have heard of "free movement of people", one or two people in these forums are obsessed with this concept, I'm surprised it slipped your incite-full mind.
The only time you need to jump through hoops is for a non-EU employee.
There is no such thing as a "middle class wage" any more than there is a working class wage.
Some middle class workers earn very little, while some working class employees are paid a lot.
I hate to agree with the old class warrior GGP on this but he (she?!) has a point. I hate the labels of class but you can't just divide people up on what they earn.
I am not speaking of your English, but of you referring to the concept of a middle class wage. You also previously said "IT is middle class".
Both comments don't make sense, as a person's class is not determined by the job they are employed to do, so there can't be a middle class wage. And to say a particular field like IT is middle class is patently absurd.