I thought that, though actually I don't think he was Ser Loras' squire, he worked in LF brothel.
Whatever he is on very dodgy ground why give evidence that you were a partner in a homosexual act when the crime is that homosexual act.
He was acting as Loras's squire the first time we saw him. He may well have been working for LF then as well. Quite possibly he was planted by LF to spy on Loras and get something on him.
As for his appearance as a witness, he was already in big trouble with the Faith because he was running LF's brothel, so he was doubtless being coerced with the promise of absolution. Not that I would trust them, but he doesn't have much choice.
In the earlier series, many of the main actresses were willing to get their kit off, which was a slam dunk for the writers. As GoT has grown, the actresses can afford to be a lot less co-operative, and refuse to appear nude on a regular basis - Emilia Clarke, Carice can Outen, for example. I bet Sophie Turner has 'no nudity' written in her contract in big letters.
Sophie will certainly have had a 'no nudity' clause from the start, due to her age.
I believe Emilia has opted out of nude scenes now. (I do think that the scene where the she emerged from the fire with the newly-hatched dragons would have lost some of its impact without the nudity.)
Carice is quite happy to do nude scenes, according to an interview I read somewhere.
However distasteful a thought, there's a proportion of the population that would find the brutal abuse of a young woman sexually exciting. I'd go further and say that the proportion of such people is likely to be higher in the GoT audience than it is in the general population. So were the writers aiming to please the demographic-that-dares-not-speak-its-name? The Cersei rape served no plot function at all, but I bet there were a few thousand viewers who stopped thumping their wives long enough to watch.
So many sadistic tastes to please, and only ten episodes....
No.
Glad we got that cleared up.
You seem to have an incredibly low opinion of the writers and the viewing audience.
You seem to have an incredibly low opinion of the writers and the viewing audience.
I'm the viewing audience. I don't have a low opinion of me or anyone else I know who watches it.
But I think it's naive not to recognise that people who get off on violence, and in particular sexual violence towards women, are likely to be attracted to GoT for reasons other than dragons and Tyrion's wit. They're an important demographic, and I imagine they have to be catered for. I can think of no other reason for the Cersei rape scene.
People seem a bit obsessed with who does/doesn't have a 'no nudity' clause...
Even if Sophie Turner had been willing to strip for this scene (she was probably 18 or 19 when shooting the scene so she could have) it would have been 100% the wrong choice to do so because it was meant to be brutal and not about showing her body.
No matter what anyone says, the only reason for the nudity on the show is for entertainment purposes (explain otherwise why Emilia needed to be nude in some of the scenes in the earlier seasons? Arguably, the only time we needed to see her topless was the dragon reveal scene, and even then they could have gotten away with not showing her breasts, let's face it). A time when you do not need that is when a young character people care about is about to be raped.
Btw the writers/producers HAVE lost it somewhat this season, particularly with Dorne, which has been shit so far. They didn't even need to include Dorne if it was going to be so lame. I guess they always knew, when they sent Myrcella away, that they were going to go for the simple plot of Jaime going to 'rescue' her. Where it leads, we shall see... The prophecy suggests Cersei will see her remaining children die...
Btw the writers/producers HAVE lost it somewhat this season, particularly with Dorne, which has been shit so far. They didn't even need to include Dorne if it was going to be so lame. I guess they always knew, when they sent Myrcella away, that they were going to go for the simple plot of Jaime going to 'rescue' her. Where it leads, we shall see... The prophecy suggests Cersei will see her remaining children die...
I saw somewhere that they had to choose between focusing on Dorne or focusing on the Iron Islands. If true I imagine the thought process went something like: "We've got to decide between Dorne and the Iron Islands. If we go with the Iron Islands we'll scout some wet, windswept coastal areas of Northern Ireland. If we go with Dorne we're thinking... Spain in the summer? Anyway fellas I'll leave it up to you".
We also thought there were many ways the birthmark could have been seen.
Not sure how much of this has been discussed, but I read GRRM told the producers how the series of books will end when he was 62 in case he died (he's 66 now). The producers are also working towards that ending, but as from this series the books and the shows part company, before each new series they will discuss with GRRM how that series will pan out. The next book in the series will not be released this year, but there is a possibility it will be published in 2016. One of the issues for the producers is the age of the children because obviously they are maturing much faster than GRRM is writing the books! All of the children look older than the age they are in the story.
There is a real chance the producers will catch up with the books and tbh I can see the series never being finished, especially as GRRM has said he will only write standalone books in future in the world of GOT (not surprisingly he won't allow anyone else to help with the writing). He has decided to opt out of certain commitments e.g. Comic Con 2015 to focus on finishing on the next book, but when he makes these announcements, he always seems to leave the option open to change his mind.
Sansa/Ramsay/Theon stuff
The final scene was shocking and harrowing to watch - but was I the only one who knew it was going to happen? I had a feeling Ramsay would do something horrible to Sansa. And that he did.
II'm a bit disturbed to see so many people on here claiming that it wasn't rape...but hey ho.
I also had a tiny shred of sympathy for pathetic Theon/Reek as he stood there watching, even though I absolutely hate this character.
Essos stuff
Good scenes between Tyrion and Jorah as usual - I especially liked the fact that Jorah finally found out his dad had died and how upset he looked even they didn't speak.
It also reminded me how much I liked the Old Bear
King's Landing stuff
Cersei really is a nasty bitch. I agree with everyone else though - she's gone way too far and it's definitely all going to come back to bite her on her incestuous arse.
Scene - stealer has to be Lady Olenna as always though. She is such a wonderful character, a joy to watch. It was infuriating seeing Cersei get the better of her but I suspect that won't last.
Also, Littlefinger just gets creepier and creepier with each episode. I was shocked when he told Cersei about Sansa. Just what is his game??
Arya stuff
I Feel Arya's Braavos storyline has been somewhat repetitive so it was nice to see it actually progressing in this episode. Seeing all those faces was very creepy indeed. Looking forward to seeing how this develops.
Dorne stuff
I'm just not getting it. I've tried but it's not happening.
I hate to be one of those "the books are sooooo much better" types but I do feel that the omission of certain Dornish characters from the books is really having a negative impact on this storyline.
I like Prince Doran and Areo but they have been very underused so far.
Not feeling the love for the Sand Snakes at all - or Ellary as a matter of fact and I thought she was going to be great this season.
The whole 'fight' last night just seemed rushed and farcical. I was half expecting to hear the Benny Hill music at one point. And are we supposed to believe that the Sand Snakes chose to go and kidnap Myrcella at the precise moment Jaime and Bronn turned up at the Water Gardens...?
Although Bronn's "Oh for f*** sake" did make me laugh though.
Plus, are we supposed to care about Trystane and Myrcella? This was the first time wwe've seen their 'relationship' and it all just seemed a bit...meh.
I also feel like the whole landscape of the Dornish scenes is just...wrong. I know the whole place isn't supposed to be desert but the scenes with Jaime and Bronn travelling to the Water Gardens made it look like they were shivering their way through the dreary Riverlands, not baking hot sunny Dorne.
The books make such a distinction that Dorne's terrain and climate is unlike any other area in Westeros I thought that the least they could do was try to show this visually.
But, all in all, I did enjoy the episode. My favourite part was probably the King's Landing stuff. I have to say, I did enjoy a break from The Wall and Mereen.
I'm the viewing audience. I don't have a low opinion of me or anyone else I know who watches it.
But I think it's naive not to recognise that people who get off on violence, and in particular sexual violence towards women, are likely to be attracted to GoT for reasons other than dragons and Tyrion's wit. They're an important demographic, and I imagine they have to be catered for. I can think of no other reason for the Cersei rape scene.
Sorry, but it's saying stuff like that that makes me think you have a low opinion of the viewing audience (yourself excluded).
Because to suggest that abusive sexual deviants are an important demographic, who the writers are prepared to cater to, is simply ludicrous and insults the integrity of the writers.
I think in reality a miniscule proportion of the audience will have found the scene anything other than disturbing. Do you really think that there is a large proportion of the audience so uninvested in Sansa's character and story arc over the last 5 seasons that they were getting their kicks from that scene?
As for the Cersei/Jaime scene. Personally, I thought it was intended to throw up serious questions about their characters and their relationship.
Their relationship was under the microscope in that scene, as they stood beside their dead son, to whom Cersei had been devoted and Jaime had been indifferent. It made you question whether their relationship had ever been love, or had it always just been physical lust. Had Jaime in fact forced this relationship on Cersei? Were Joffrey and the other children actually the result of rape? Cersei kept saying "this is wrong", as it happened; which was obviously meant to refer to their incestuous relationship, not just what was happening at that moment.
In some way, was that scene a (literal) battle between the two of them for control/dominance of their relationship?
How did this all reflect on your opinion of Cersei, who we had always assumed was fully invested in their relationship? Did it make her more sympathetic?
Jaime, who had partly redeemed himself on his journey back to King's Landing and in his treatment of Brienne, had revealed the ugly, arrogant side to his character again. The entitled b*st*rd that we'd all previously hoped Ned/Robb/Catelyn/Brienne/Locke or whoever else would have put a sword through.
There are numerous ways you could look at it, and I guess it depends upon your individual viewpoint. Was it unnecessary? Some might think so. Others won't.
But was it written just to give an obscure demographic of sexual deviants a cheap thrill? Certainly not.
I do take your point but I think last night was the straw that broke the camel's back. Will probably give my Blu-Rays and books away. Probably should have reached this point earlier. Yes, yes, good riddance, I know.
Did you ever see the episode of This Is England, when Trev was raped by Lol's Dad ?
Arguably one of the most shocking things I've ever witnessed on TV in my entire life, and it still makes my skin crawl now just recollecting it. The GoT scene with Sansa, Ramsay & Theon was a boat ride through the Tunnel Of Love by comparison. Be it in Medieval Fantasy, Modern TV drama or in Real Life the following things are a certainty.
1: Bad things don't necessarily happen to solely Evil People.
2: Good things don't necessarily happen to solely Good People.
3: Shit happens (I hate the fact it does, but there's nothing any of us can do about it)
I would like to know were you so uproarious when Theon was brutalised by Ramsay and had his genitalia removed by the evil little scrote ? When the Prostitute was Crossbowed to death by Joffrey ? When Joffrey got the self same Harlot to beat the other one to death ? The murder of Rob's unborn child at the Red Wedding ? The Incestuous scenes between Cersei & Jaime ? (After all that's also illegal is it not ?), as you appear to be so angered and voiciferous in condemnation over an incident we all effectively imagined in our mind's eye, because nothing was shown bar Theon's face.
Anyway Ramsay's back in the new series of Vicious soon 😏
Did you ever see the episode of This Is England, when Trev was raped by Lol's Dad ?
Arguably one of the most shocking things I've ever witnessed on TV in my entire life, and it still makes my skin crawl now just recollecting it. The GoT scene with Sansa, Ramsay & Theon was a boat ride through the Tunnel Of Love by comparison. Be it in Medieval Fantasy, Modern TV drama or in Real Life the following things are a certainty.
1: Bad things don't necessarily happen to solely Evil People.
2: Good things don't necessarily happen to solely Good People.
3: Shit happens (I hate the fact it does, but there's nothing any of us can do about it)
I would like to know were you so uproarious when Theon was brutalised by Ramsay and had his genitalia removed by the evil little scrote ? When the Prostitute was Crossbowed to death by Joffrey ? When Joffrey got the self same Harlot to beat the other one to death ? The murder of Rob's unborn child at the Red Wedding ? The Incestuous scenes between Cersei & Jaime ? (After all that's also illegal is it not ?), as you appear to be so angered and voiciferous in condemnation over an incident we all effectively imagined in our mind's eye, because nothing was shown bar Theon's face.
Anyway Ramsay's back in the new series of Vicious soon 😏
Yes, I have seen the scene you mention from This is England. No, it doesn't make this scene any better or more justified (or illuminate any of what we are talking about, really).
For the third or fourth time in this thread now, allow me to point out yet again to the fond of listing terrible things. I haven't only complained about / objected to the Sansa scenes, so the rest of your post is waffle on an incorrect assumption. I have also objected to, amongst other things, Cersei's rape by Jaime, the Ser Loras homophobia storyline, the depiction of the Red Wedding, and the Reek torture by Ramsay. Sansa's rape is "final straw" territory.
The King's Landing plot is definitely getting interesting. I'm not as convinced as some that the sparrows will turn on Cersei. She's the one providing them with military support and legitimacy. Even if they knew for a fact she was guilty of incest I could see them looking the other way. The alternative would just be a war with the crown they couldn't win. Although I can see them facing military action anyway, if the Tyrells get their way.
I actually think that is exactly what Cercei is thinking. She is the source of their power, therefore she controls them. That's how the game works. However, I think she has misjudged them seriously. These are religious zealots. Such people are often willing to die horrible, persecuted deaths to stick to their rigid beliefs. They've been intentionally painted as fundamentalists compared to most who follow the religion. The High Sparrow himself has shown himself to be someone who wasn't pursuing power. He's a real "messiah" type character - one who pops up unexpectedly and rallies support because of his lack of interest in traditional power.
Fundamentalists play a very different game to Cercei. I don't think she understands their game and will be caught off-guard when they turn on her. To her, its all about power and what it takes to secure that. To them, its about moral absolutes.
Watch how they couldn't care less when Meryn Trant suggests Tommen let the King's Guard slaughter the lot of them - all over disturbing their leader whilst he prays. These guys don't care about whether they live or die. They're fanatics. I don't think Cercei understands that and thinks they will just overlook her discretions to secure future power. I think they'd all rather die martyrs than turn a blind eye to their beliefs.
She's given them too much power, whilst simultaneously undermined the King's. She's not the one in control there.
I agree that the fight in Dorne seemed a bit clumsy and silly. I wasn't impressed by the choreography at all and the sand snakes seemed to be neutralised before they could even establish themselves as a threat.
The sand snakes were really disappointing. After all their buildup, I actually thought they were going to kill both Jamie and Bronn. In the end, they weren't much of a threat even to Jamie, who was last seen struggling with a single Dornish solider. So far, they generally come across as a bunch of angry girls who think more of themselves than they are really worth. ie. typical teenagers and not terrifying warriors.
- Grey Wind (Robb's) - killed at the Red Wedding and had his head sewn onto Robb's decapitated body
- Ghost (Jon's) - with Jon at Castle Black.
- Lady (Sansa's) - killed by Ned as a substitute for Nymeria who vanished after attacking Joffrey
- Nymeria (Arya's) - banished by Arya after attacking Joffrey to save her from being killed. Presumably still roaming around the Riverlands.
- Summer (Bran's) - with Bran, Hodor et al North of The Wall.
- Shaggydog (Rickon's) - with Rickon wherever the hell that is!
Lol, I'm enjoying your Bold character names for your episode summary this week. I might have to steal that idea for next week. Makes it nice and neat and easy to read.
I also love the direwolves. I'm sure we will see Nymeria again at some point too!
As for the Cersei/Jaime scene. Personally, I thought it was intended to throw up serious questions about their characters and their relationship.
Their relationship was under the microscope in that scene, as they stood beside their dead son, to whom Cersei had been devoted and Jaime had been indifferent. It made you question whether their relationship had ever been love, or had it always just been physical lust. Had Jaime in fact forced this relationship on Cersei? Were Joffrey and the other children actually the result of rape? Cersei kept saying "this is wrong", as it happened; which was obviously meant to refer to their incestuous relationship, not just what was happening at that moment.
No, I didn't get any of that from it.
Their physical closeness is lifelong, more than lifelong as they shared their mother's womb, and didn't Cersei say something along the lines that they were one person and she needed him to complete her. Add to this the early death of their mother, and Tywin probably not being much of a cuddly dad, and I can sort of understand how it came about.
For obvious reasons Jaime has never been able to show any fatherly affection towards their children, but for Cersei it's different. She is also far more worried than Jaime that someone might catch them at it (remember the tower scene with Bran), and they were in a public place where someone might have come in at any moment, and frankly it wouldn't have looked good, would it. So her reluctance didn't surprise me at all.
One other thing. She seemed to be repelled by the loss of his hand, as though he wasn't quite good enough for her now he wasn't perfect. She really showed her shallowness and selfishness there, I thought.
The wedding night rape scene was important for two reasons.
1) It shows that Sansa has agency. She knew very well that she was crawling into a viper's nest when she chose to return to Winterfell. This was always likely to happen. Knowing the Boltons, worse may happen still. But she chose to risk it because she intends to avenge her family. Soldiers go into battle knowing they may be wounded. This is part of Sansa's war.
2) It will help shake Theon out of his obeisance to Ramsay. And I disagree completely with the pseudofeminism of those who say this is an illegitimate way of advancing his character arc. When Eddard lost his head, it developed Arya as a character. Why should it be any different when traumatic events are inflicted the other way around?
I'm not disappointed by the Winterfell storyline - it's Dorne that bothers me. Never mind the cheesy fight choreography, the character development has been atrocious by GoT standards. 6 episodes in, and we know next to nothing about Prince Doran and the Sand Snakes. These colourful characters from the books have never had any opportunity to shine.
On the other hand, I am loving everything that is happening in Essos. Daenerys' struggles to civilise an utterly barbaric people and tame her dragons, the creepiness of Arya's training in the House of Black and White, and of course, Jorah and Tyrion's trip through Valyria which has resulted in the funniest line in the entire show: "The dwarf lives until we find a cock-merchant."
I don't think the scene was remotely titillating, but clearly the the writers did intend the scene to be emotionally arousing. Why WAS it emotionally arousing? We've watched awful things happen to Theon, and lots of traumatised expressions have appear on his face before, and there isn't much shock value left in them. So the emotional force of the scene was that we were hearing /seeing the brutal devouring of a virgin we knew and cared about.
However distasteful a thought, there's a proportion of the population that would find the brutal abuse of a young woman sexually exciting. I'd go further and say that the proportion of such people is likely to be higher in the GoT audience than it is in the general population. So were the writers aiming to please the demographic-that-dares-not-speak-its-name? The Cersei rape served no plot function at all, but I bet there were a few thousand viewers who stopped thumping their wives long enough to watch.
So many sadistic tastes to please, and only ten episodes....
Fire breathing dragons flying past my window are more believable than those points you made.
The wedding night rape scene was important for two reasons.
1) It shows that Sansa has agency. She knew very well that she was crawling into a viper's nest when she chose to return to Winterfell. This was always likely to happen. Knowing the Boltons, worse may happen still. But she chose to risk it because she intends to avenge her family. Soldiers go into battle knowing they may be wounded. This is part of Sansa's war.
2) It will help shake Theon out of his obeisance to Ramsay. And I disagree completely with the pseudofeminism of those who say this is an illegitimate way of advancing his character arc. When Eddard lost his head, it developed Arya as a character. Why should it be any different when traumatic events are inflicted the other way around?
I'm not disappointed by the Winterfell storyline - it's Dorne that bothers me. Never mind the cheesy fight choreography, the character development has been atrocious by GoT standards. 6 episodes in, and we know next to nothing about Prince Doran and the Sand Snakes. These colourful characters from the books have never had any opportunity to shine.
On the other hand, I am loving everything that is happening in Essos. Daenerys' struggles to civilise an utterly barbaric people and tame her dragons, the creepiness of Arya's training in the House of Black and White, and of course, Jorah and Tyrion's trip through Valyria which has resulted in the funniest line in the entire show: "The dwarf lives until we find a cock-merchant."
There have been some great lines in this show, mainly from Tyrion himself...but god did I laugh at this one lol
And how many horror films are mainly about the torturing and suffering of short-skirted and topless young women? There's a huge market for sex plus fear/pain, especially in the US where they view showing sex as much worse than showing violence of any kind.
You think domestic abuse is a more fantastical concept than dragons?
You think the GoT producers don't have a marketing team who segment their market carefully to see who they have to please, and how?
No, he thinks your generalisation of GOT fans as secret Marquis de Sades is as likely to be true as dragons and I agree.
Ludicrous opinion!
If you think the GOT producers had Sansa raped to please their audience you only have to look at some of the fan sites to blow that theory out of the water!
Complaints when they stray from the books. Complaints when they follow the books too closely. Complaints when disturbing scenes are toned down from the books. Complaints when scenes aren't disturbing enough. Complaints when characters get new storylines, complaints when they adhere to their book material.
David & Dan have had an interesting time of it over the years
I can understand comments that characters are not as exciting in the TV show because there is not the time to devote episodes to them (Sand Snakes for example). I can also understand certain events that readers will look forward to seeing how they are displayed on screen.
But to have a scene by scene copy of the book? I mean how boring would that be. There would be no point in a TV adaption f it followed events exactly the same. Its also not possible in 10 episodes a year. If GOT had 22 episodes a season I could understand but even then the cast would be too huge and I have great difficulty in remembering characters we have not seen in seasons.
Comments
He was acting as Loras's squire the first time we saw him. He may well have been working for LF then as well. Quite possibly he was planted by LF to spy on Loras and get something on him.
As for his appearance as a witness, he was already in big trouble with the Faith because he was running LF's brothel, so he was doubtless being coerced with the promise of absolution. Not that I would trust them, but he doesn't have much choice.
Sophie will certainly have had a 'no nudity' clause from the start, due to her age.
I believe Emilia has opted out of nude scenes now. (I do think that the scene where the she emerged from the fire with the newly-hatched dragons would have lost some of its impact without the nudity.)
Carice is quite happy to do nude scenes, according to an interview I read somewhere.
No.
Glad we got that cleared up.
You seem to have an incredibly low opinion of the writers and the viewing audience.
But I think it's naive not to recognise that people who get off on violence, and in particular sexual violence towards women, are likely to be attracted to GoT for reasons other than dragons and Tyrion's wit. They're an important demographic, and I imagine they have to be catered for. I can think of no other reason for the Cersei rape scene.
Here's where they all are at the moment:
- Grey Wind (Robb's) - killed at the Red Wedding and had his head sewn onto Robb's decapitated body
- Ghost (Jon's) - with Jon at Castle Black.
- Lady (Sansa's) - killed by Ned as a substitute for Nymeria who vanished after attacking Joffrey
- Nymeria (Arya's) - banished by Arya after attacking Joffrey to save her from being killed. Presumably still roaming around the Riverlands.
- Summer (Bran's) - with Bran, Hodor et al North of The Wall.
- Shaggydog (Rickon's) - with Rickon wherever the hell that is!
Even if Sophie Turner had been willing to strip for this scene (she was probably 18 or 19 when shooting the scene so she could have) it would have been 100% the wrong choice to do so because it was meant to be brutal and not about showing her body.
No matter what anyone says, the only reason for the nudity on the show is for entertainment purposes (explain otherwise why Emilia needed to be nude in some of the scenes in the earlier seasons? Arguably, the only time we needed to see her topless was the dragon reveal scene, and even then they could have gotten away with not showing her breasts, let's face it). A time when you do not need that is when a young character people care about is about to be raped.
Btw the writers/producers HAVE lost it somewhat this season, particularly with Dorne, which has been shit so far. They didn't even need to include Dorne if it was going to be so lame. I guess they always knew, when they sent Myrcella away, that they were going to go for the simple plot of Jaime going to 'rescue' her. Where it leads, we shall see... The prophecy suggests Cersei will see her remaining children die...
I saw somewhere that they had to choose between focusing on Dorne or focusing on the Iron Islands. If true I imagine the thought process went something like: "We've got to decide between Dorne and the Iron Islands. If we go with the Iron Islands we'll scout some wet, windswept coastal areas of Northern Ireland. If we go with Dorne we're thinking... Spain in the summer? Anyway fellas I'll leave it up to you".
Not sure how much of this has been discussed, but I read GRRM told the producers how the series of books will end when he was 62 in case he died (he's 66 now). The producers are also working towards that ending, but as from this series the books and the shows part company, before each new series they will discuss with GRRM how that series will pan out. The next book in the series will not be released this year, but there is a possibility it will be published in 2016. One of the issues for the producers is the age of the children because obviously they are maturing much faster than GRRM is writing the books! All of the children look older than the age they are in the story.
There is a real chance the producers will catch up with the books and tbh I can see the series never being finished, especially as GRRM has said he will only write standalone books in future in the world of GOT (not surprisingly he won't allow anyone else to help with the writing). He has decided to opt out of certain commitments e.g. Comic Con 2015 to focus on finishing on the next book, but when he makes these announcements, he always seems to leave the option open to change his mind.
Love Lady Tyrell.
Sorry, but it's saying stuff like that that makes me think you have a low opinion of the viewing audience (yourself excluded).
Because to suggest that abusive sexual deviants are an important demographic, who the writers are prepared to cater to, is simply ludicrous and insults the integrity of the writers.
I think in reality a miniscule proportion of the audience will have found the scene anything other than disturbing. Do you really think that there is a large proportion of the audience so uninvested in Sansa's character and story arc over the last 5 seasons that they were getting their kicks from that scene?
As for the Cersei/Jaime scene. Personally, I thought it was intended to throw up serious questions about their characters and their relationship.
Their relationship was under the microscope in that scene, as they stood beside their dead son, to whom Cersei had been devoted and Jaime had been indifferent. It made you question whether their relationship had ever been love, or had it always just been physical lust. Had Jaime in fact forced this relationship on Cersei? Were Joffrey and the other children actually the result of rape? Cersei kept saying "this is wrong", as it happened; which was obviously meant to refer to their incestuous relationship, not just what was happening at that moment.
In some way, was that scene a (literal) battle between the two of them for control/dominance of their relationship?
How did this all reflect on your opinion of Cersei, who we had always assumed was fully invested in their relationship? Did it make her more sympathetic?
Jaime, who had partly redeemed himself on his journey back to King's Landing and in his treatment of Brienne, had revealed the ugly, arrogant side to his character again. The entitled b*st*rd that we'd all previously hoped Ned/Robb/Catelyn/Brienne/Locke or whoever else would have put a sword through.
There are numerous ways you could look at it, and I guess it depends upon your individual viewpoint. Was it unnecessary? Some might think so. Others won't.
But was it written just to give an obscure demographic of sexual deviants a cheap thrill? Certainly not.
Did you ever see the episode of This Is England, when Trev was raped by Lol's Dad ?
Arguably one of the most shocking things I've ever witnessed on TV in my entire life, and it still makes my skin crawl now just recollecting it. The GoT scene with Sansa, Ramsay & Theon was a boat ride through the Tunnel Of Love by comparison. Be it in Medieval Fantasy, Modern TV drama or in Real Life the following things are a certainty.
1: Bad things don't necessarily happen to solely Evil People.
2: Good things don't necessarily happen to solely Good People.
3: Shit happens (I hate the fact it does, but there's nothing any of us can do about it)
I would like to know were you so uproarious when Theon was brutalised by Ramsay and had his genitalia removed by the evil little scrote ? When the Prostitute was Crossbowed to death by Joffrey ? When Joffrey got the self same Harlot to beat the other one to death ? The murder of Rob's unborn child at the Red Wedding ? The Incestuous scenes between Cersei & Jaime ? (After all that's also illegal is it not ?), as you appear to be so angered and voiciferous in condemnation over an incident we all effectively imagined in our mind's eye, because nothing was shown bar Theon's face.
Anyway Ramsay's back in the new series of Vicious soon 😏
Thank you. We don't see enough of them. :kitty:
Yes, I have seen the scene you mention from This is England. No, it doesn't make this scene any better or more justified (or illuminate any of what we are talking about, really).
For the third or fourth time in this thread now, allow me to point out yet again to the fond of listing terrible things. I haven't only complained about / objected to the Sansa scenes, so the rest of your post is waffle on an incorrect assumption. I have also objected to, amongst other things, Cersei's rape by Jaime, the Ser Loras homophobia storyline, the depiction of the Red Wedding, and the Reek torture by Ramsay. Sansa's rape is "final straw" territory.
I actually think that is exactly what Cercei is thinking. She is the source of their power, therefore she controls them. That's how the game works. However, I think she has misjudged them seriously. These are religious zealots. Such people are often willing to die horrible, persecuted deaths to stick to their rigid beliefs. They've been intentionally painted as fundamentalists compared to most who follow the religion. The High Sparrow himself has shown himself to be someone who wasn't pursuing power. He's a real "messiah" type character - one who pops up unexpectedly and rallies support because of his lack of interest in traditional power.
Fundamentalists play a very different game to Cercei. I don't think she understands their game and will be caught off-guard when they turn on her. To her, its all about power and what it takes to secure that. To them, its about moral absolutes.
Watch how they couldn't care less when Meryn Trant suggests Tommen let the King's Guard slaughter the lot of them - all over disturbing their leader whilst he prays. These guys don't care about whether they live or die. They're fanatics. I don't think Cercei understands that and thinks they will just overlook her discretions to secure future power. I think they'd all rather die martyrs than turn a blind eye to their beliefs.
She's given them too much power, whilst simultaneously undermined the King's. She's not the one in control there.
The sand snakes were really disappointing. After all their buildup, I actually thought they were going to kill both Jamie and Bronn. In the end, they weren't much of a threat even to Jamie, who was last seen struggling with a single Dornish solider. So far, they generally come across as a bunch of angry girls who think more of themselves than they are really worth. ie. typical teenagers and not terrifying warriors.
Lol, I'm enjoying your Bold character names for your episode summary this week. I might have to steal that idea for next week. Makes it nice and neat and easy to read.
I also love the direwolves. I'm sure we will see Nymeria again at some point too!
No, I didn't get any of that from it.
Their physical closeness is lifelong, more than lifelong as they shared their mother's womb, and didn't Cersei say something along the lines that they were one person and she needed him to complete her. Add to this the early death of their mother, and Tywin probably not being much of a cuddly dad, and I can sort of understand how it came about.
For obvious reasons Jaime has never been able to show any fatherly affection towards their children, but for Cersei it's different. She is also far more worried than Jaime that someone might catch them at it (remember the tower scene with Bran), and they were in a public place where someone might have come in at any moment, and frankly it wouldn't have looked good, would it.
One other thing. She seemed to be repelled by the loss of his hand, as though he wasn't quite good enough for her now he wasn't perfect. She really showed her shallowness and selfishness there, I thought.
1) It shows that Sansa has agency. She knew very well that she was crawling into a viper's nest when she chose to return to Winterfell. This was always likely to happen. Knowing the Boltons, worse may happen still. But she chose to risk it because she intends to avenge her family. Soldiers go into battle knowing they may be wounded. This is part of Sansa's war.
2) It will help shake Theon out of his obeisance to Ramsay. And I disagree completely with the pseudofeminism of those who say this is an illegitimate way of advancing his character arc. When Eddard lost his head, it developed Arya as a character. Why should it be any different when traumatic events are inflicted the other way around?
I'm not disappointed by the Winterfell storyline - it's Dorne that bothers me. Never mind the cheesy fight choreography, the character development has been atrocious by GoT standards. 6 episodes in, and we know next to nothing about Prince Doran and the Sand Snakes. These colourful characters from the books have never had any opportunity to shine.
On the other hand, I am loving everything that is happening in Essos. Daenerys' struggles to civilise an utterly barbaric people and tame her dragons, the creepiness of Arya's training in the House of Black and White, and of course, Jorah and Tyrion's trip through Valyria which has resulted in the funniest line in the entire show: "The dwarf lives until we find a cock-merchant."
Fire breathing dragons flying past my window are more believable than those points you made.
You think domestic abuse is a more fantastical concept than dragons?
You think the GoT producers don't have a marketing team who segment their market carefully to see who they have to please, and how?
There have been some great lines in this show, mainly from Tyrion himself...but god did I laugh at this one lol
No, he thinks your generalisation of GOT fans as secret Marquis de Sades is as likely to be true as dragons and I agree.
Ludicrous opinion!
If you think the GOT producers had Sansa raped to please their audience you only have to look at some of the fan sites to blow that theory out of the water!
You think the GoT marketing team are influencing this show and telling the writing team to appeal to a demographic of wife beaters?
I think that is more fantasy than anything GoT has come up with.
David & Dan have had an interesting time of it over the years
But to have a scene by scene copy of the book? I mean how boring would that be. There would be no point in a TV adaption f it followed events exactly the same. Its also not possible in 10 episodes a year. If GOT had 22 episodes a season I could understand but even then the cast would be too huge and I have great difficulty in remembering characters we have not seen in seasons.