How would you have written Last of the Time Lords? (Merged)

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  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 58
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    Have the Sound of Drums as the season opener.

    Show the rest of the adventures as stories told by Martha as she travels the world, collecting bits of gun.
    Also play up Archangel and show the Doctor meditating/tapping into the network.

    Start off Last of the Timelords with the Time Vortex Jump. Then the recap of the Sound of Drums post credits.

    Then we get the pay off of Martha's true mission, why the Doctor was tuning himself in so it makes it a bit more calculated.
  • sovietusernamesovietusername Posts: 1,169
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    I'm sorry but I disagree with you here.

    As with Hartnell with the Doctor, Delgado setup the basic character for The Master and basically didn't stray far from his original performance. Peter Pratt was more similar to his Master than some realise. He may have lost the charm Delgado had but the basic evil nature was still there. And remember it was only a one-off performance.

    Geoffrey Beevers also played it very similar before Ainley took over and what he did originally was infuse the New Master with some cold, calculating insanity before his Panto version took hold. However, I still think he had regained the calmness of Delgado's Master, less the charm.

    Eric Roberts was hit and miss, but the first part before the TARDIS Scenes, the cold calculating Master was still there and Derek Jacobi continued this also.

    Always these various characterisations are what The Master should be like imo, they may all be different but the aren't too far of the established Master character less Ainley's Panto and Roberts camp TARDIS Scenes in the TV Movie.

    So I seriously disagree Simm's portrayal is how he should be when his interpretation is so far of the mark of the other Master's.

    :)

    W Hartnell is a very different Doctor to D Tennant though! Yes, their still the basic character, but I'd still argue R Delgado and J Simm are as well. I mean, he's still an evil bastard. He does have charm and charisma (he did act the politician very well after all, and he managed to get everyone voting Saxon) and he certainly does still have his sense of humour. OK, his might be quite different to previous Master's humour, but then so are different incarnations of the Doctor's sense of humour. We know regeneration can dramatically change a Time Lord and, really, one thing you've got to ask is, you say the other classic series Master's werent that dofferent to R Delgado, but did Delgado actually ever really leave. You just dont really feel, with them, that they are different Masters on a similar level to the way different Doctor's are different. Let me explain, The Deadly Assassin was written by the same guy who created the Master and was wanting to bring back an old enemy rather than "reboot" him as you have with regeneration. Also, being his creator, Robert Holmes would have had a very particular idea of what the Master should be like. So, although it couldnt be the same Master due to Delgado's sad demise, it was always going to be very similar to Delgado's incarnation.

    As for the Master in Keeper Of Traken, well he spends half the story in a statue as part of the plot so he kind of has to be all cautious etc, and he's meant to be the same incarnation of the Master whom we see in Deadly Assassin. Then we have Anthony Ainley who was all going to be similar as, really, they didnt seem to want a new Master, so to speak, but rather they based him completely on Delgado. Ainley really doesent get a frsh portrayal of the Master, this isnt a new incarnation, Ainley's Master is parctically a R Delagado clone. He even has the same costume etc. And a beard! I magine if they'd made every Doctor similar to W Hartnell. Would we have ever heard of Dr Who? And as you say, Eric Roberts was very different during the course of that 1 TV Movie.

    Lots of fans might not like Simm's Master, but he was another integral part of modernising the show etc so new audiences can watch it as well as the old. He ahd to be different to match Tennant's Doctor, to show this is a really similar guy after 3 years of no one being able to defeat the Doctor ever. It's like the time war with the Daleks, or the Cybermen being created on Earth, some bits might have been unneccesarry (never got the thing with the drums, as I say in my above post, it's stupid and rubbish), but in the end it all helped the characters and concepts of Dr Who be successfull again. The whole Doctor/Master thing is so ownderfully done here, in a way that does, despite Simm's differences, remind me of Pertwee/Delgado. Much prefer these 2 episodes to the Stolen Earth/Journeys End, or indeed the series finale that came before. However I do agree that Simm's Master did get a bit much in the End of Time, in which he must be laughing for a good 20 mins on and off. But then, I dont like that story very much. If Simm ever returns (which would be good), I would like him to be much darker, especially now we have a different Doctor etc.
  • CorwinCorwin Posts: 16,588
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    I was hoping they would merge Scorpio's thread into mine but they decided to do it the other way round.

    Not sure if it's the same here or not but from experience on another forum the Merge Function automatically retains the Title of the Older Thread for the new merged thread.

    They could have then renamed the thread to your Thread name but the first Post would still have been Scorpio's as it was the earliest posted.
  • daveyboy7472daveyboy7472 Posts: 16,351
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    W Hartnell is a very different Doctor to D Tennant though! Yes, their still the basic character, but I'd still argue R Delgado and J Simm are as well. I mean, he's still an evil bastard. He does have charm and charisma (he did act the politician very well after all, and he managed to get everyone voting Saxon) and he certainly does still have his sense of humour. OK, his might be quite different to previous Master's humour, but then so are different incarnations of the Doctor's sense of humour. We know regeneration can dramatically change a Time Lord and, really, one thing you've got to ask is, you say the other classic series Master's werent that dofferent to R Delgado, but did Delgado actually ever really leave. You just dont really feel, with them, that they are different Masters on a similar level to the way different Doctor's are different. Let me explain, The Deadly Assassin was written by the same guy who created the Master and was wanting to bring back an old enemy rather than "reboot" him as you have with regeneration. Also, being his creator, Robert Holmes would have had a very particular idea of what the Master should be like. So, although it couldnt be the same Master due to Delgado's sad demise, it was always going to be very similar to Delgado's incarnation.

    As for the Master in Keeper Of Traken, well he spends half the story in a statue as part of the plot so he kind of has to be all cautious etc, and he's meant to be the same incarnation of the Master whom we see in Deadly Assassin. Then we have Anthony Ainley who was all going to be similar as, really, they didnt seem to want a new Master, so to speak, but rather they based him completely on Delgado. Ainley really doesent get a frsh portrayal of the Master, this isnt a new incarnation, Ainley's Master is parctically a R Delagado clone. He even has the same costume etc. And a beard! I magine if they'd made every Doctor similar to W Hartnell. Would we have ever heard of Dr Who? And as you say, Eric Roberts was very different during the course of that 1 TV Movie.

    Lots of fans might not like Simm's Master, but he was another integral part of modernising the show etc so new audiences can watch it as well as the old. He ahd to be different to match Tennant's Doctor, to show this is a really similar guy after 3 years of no one being able to defeat the Doctor ever. It's like the time war with the Daleks, or the Cybermen being created on Earth, some bits might have been unneccesarry (never got the thing with the drums, as I say in my above post, it's stupid and rubbish), but in the end it all helped the characters and concepts of Dr Who be successfull again. The whole Doctor/Master thing is so ownderfully done here, in a way that does, despite Simm's differences, remind me of Pertwee/Delgado. Much prefer these 2 episodes to the Stolen Earth/Journeys End, or indeed the series finale that came before. However I do agree that Simm's Master did get a bit much in the End of Time, in which he must be laughing for a good 20 mins on and off. But then, I dont like that story very much. If Simm ever returns (which would be good), I would like him to be much darker, especially now we have a different Doctor etc.

    Isn't that what I've been trying to say though? That all the Master's upto until Simm had basically being the same with a few minor differences in charactrisation in the same way as there is from Doctor to Doctor.

    For me this is as extreme a departure away from the standard Master character as Colin Baker was from the basic Doctor character for a large section of The Twin Dilemma. It was more like a Big Brother/Littlle Brother relationship the Tenth Doctor had with this Master and it wasn't necessary. The whole idea is the Master is equal but opposite, a lot of that was lost in Simm's portrayal. I felt all the childishness totally overpowered what The Master should be and though he still had the intelligence all the other stuff detracted from that. That's where Jacobi triumphed on all levels, I really felt he was more like The Master should be and imo he would have made for a better adversary than Simm.

    I guess at the end of the day everyone has different views on what they like or don't like in The Master's character. Simm is most definitely not what I like but I do agree if he comes back he needs to calm down and get back to a darker place.

    And naturally I disagree about the two Finales on either side of this which are far better IMO. In fact, and this will shock you, much as I dislike the vast majority of Series 5, even that Series Finale was better than this!
    Corwin wrote: »
    Not sure if it's the same here or not but from experience on another forum the Merge Function automatically retains the Title of the Older Thread for the new merged thread.

    They could have then renamed the thread to your Thread name but the first Post would still have been Scorpio's as it was the earliest posted.

    It doesn't really matter to be honest. I wasn't that fussed. I would have preferred mine to stay put so people knew it was there but it doesn't seem to have made that much difference, as long as there's one thread available for people to comment on, that's all that matters.

    :)
  • sovietusernamesovietusername Posts: 1,169
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    Isn't that what I've been trying to say though? That all the Master's upto until Simm had basically being the same with a few minor differences in charactrisation in the same way as there is from Doctor to Doctor.

    For me this is as extreme a departure away from the standard Master character as Colin Baker was from the basic Doctor character for a large section of The Twin Dilemma. It was more like a Big Brother/Littlle Brother relationship the Tenth Doctor had with this Master and it wasn't necessary. The whole idea is the Master is equal but opposite, a lot of that was lost in Simm's portrayal. I felt all the childishness totally overpowered what The Master should be and though he still had the intelligence all the other stuff detracted from that. That's where Jacobi triumphed on all levels, I really felt he was more like The Master should be and imo he would have made for a better adversary than Simm.

    I guess at the end of the day everyone has different views on what they like or don't like in The Master's character. Simm is most definitely not what I like but I do agree if he comes back he needs to calm down and get back to a darker place.

    And naturally I disagree about the two Finales on either side of this which are far better IMO. In fact, and this will shock you, much as I dislike the vast majority of Series 5, even that Series Finale was better than this!




    :)

    :eek:

    :D

    I do see where your coming from, and agree with a lot of what you say, I just think that really, this Master is essential for the equal/opposite realtionship with the 10th Doctor being much more modern etc. Thats why (apart from the drums) he is the same basic character and really quite similar to Delgado. Delgado's Master, I think, was meant to be so urbane ad menacing cos that was really similar to the 3rd Doctor persona. When we had other Master's against other Doctors but with other characteristics, it did seem a bit jarring and repetitive. If you ask me, Peter Purvis, Geoffrey Beevers and Anthony Ainley had little to no similarities ir chemistry with T Baker, and Ainley was just as disimilar to P Davidson, C Baker and S McCoy (well, prehaps not so much McCoy who got quite mysterious etc later on). Similarly Eric Roberts never seemed to have anything in common with P McGann. I think the Master works best when the similarities between him and the Doctor anre highlighted, like with Moriarty in Sherlock. Thats why I think Tennant and Simm work better together than any other Master/Doctor (except Pertwee/Delgado). He has to change, because the Doctor, and because Dr Who changes, but I think in the end he's the same basic character, as this portrayal of the Master is definitive of how I perceive his character i.e baddie Doctor. That's also why, in relation to what should happen with the Master next, I think there should be a different Master, though I'd like to see a regeneration
  • CorwinCorwin Posts: 16,588
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    Peter Purvis

    Never knew he played the Master :eek: So all those episodes he called himself Steven were part of some fiendish plan? :D
  • sovietusernamesovietusername Posts: 1,169
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    Corwin wrote: »
    Never knew he played the Master :eek: So all those episodes he called himself Steven were part of some fiendish plan? :D

    Ah, no, got him mixed up with Peter Pratt
  • TalmaTalma Posts: 10,520
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    Corwin wrote: »
    Never knew he played the Master :eek: So all those episodes he called himself Steven were part of some fiendish plan? :D

    Do we know how Steven turned out though? He may have had latent meglomaniac tendencies come out once he ended up in charge...?:)
  • Granny McSmithGranny McSmith Posts: 19,622
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    I love this version of the Master, in fact he's my favourite incarnation of the Doctor's nemesis, he's just brilliant. Everyone says Delgado and Ainleys versions are most like what the Master should be like, but their not. Think how different the Master in the Deadly Assassin is, or Eric Roberts. Here's what I think the Master should be like, the equal of the Doctors, a bad Doctor, and like Delgado with 3, this is exactly what Simm does. He's the perfect match for David Tennant's 10th Doctor and I always thought Tennant should be against Simm's Master in his final story, though I'd have preffered it if that had all happened a bit differently. This episode though, I wouldnt change a thing.

    Sound of Drums is definately the better of the 2, the Master ompletely dominates in every scene and, it seems, really has defeated the Doctor. i love his manic turns, I always thought the Master should be funny and liked him here. One of my fave senes ever was where he gasses the ploiticians, the old guy shouts "your insane!" and the Master puts his thumbs. I like guys who know their crazy. He reminds me of the Joker in The Dark Knight, or the Sherlock version of Prof Moriarty. But of course, he is still menacing. Notice how, when the guy dies the Master leans it, and sort of looks at him weird, curious. That's really menacing and shows great ating by Simm. He's also really dark when he kills that journalist. "My faithful companion..." But of course, the teletubbies scene is great.

    Sound of Drums just oozes quality, not just from the Master, but the sense of defeat for the Doctor and companions. The scenes with chips are brilliant. These stories are so important for Martha and Agyeman has some really great acting here. And of course, it goes without saying Tennant's brilliant. Heck, even Barrowman's watchable. Lucy Saxon's also good (and hot) and those scenes with Gallifrey are great, really beautiful, although 1 criticism I've always had is the drums which I've never seen the point of (not only do they make no sense considering the Masters past adventures but I like the mystery in why the Master does what he dies, just like there's mystery surrounding the Doctor).

    Last of the Time Lords isnt as good, but still great. The conquered Earth is great and the music is something really special, especially in the scene where the Master/Martha explain the Paradox Machine and the Toclafane. I really like the Toclafane and do think they should have reutrned. They look cool and different, and their a very good monster, they are better at showing the dark side of humans than the cybermen ever were. "Human race, greatest monsters of them all..." Martha's great, she really gets her independence and I do feel really good for her when she helps stop the Master. I also like the restoration of the present day Earth, I realy dont think it's as crap as everyone makes out. It makes sense, andit allows series 4 to carry on as it was without everyone conveniently forgetting the past alien invasion etc as in seres 2 and 4. I also quite like all the Doctor/God stuuf, it just shows how good he is to the seemingly all powerful Master etc. The mini-Doctor is a tad silly, but these 2 episodes are really good and, in my op, the BEST RTD finale EVER!!! Very little has topped my first viewing of these episodes in terms of enjoyment and I llok back on it with really fond memories

    I'm being lazy here, and just quoting soviet's post, as I agree absolutely with most of it. :)

    I loved this finale, especially Simm's Master which was, well, masterly, and Martha, who was wonderful.

    The only thing I disliked was the dobby Doctor, which spoiled it in a number of ways, and was entirely unnecessary imo. The Doctor and the Master should have had many more instances of intellectual sparring, which became impossible once the Doctor was shrunk. Also, it just looked daft. :D

    Still two good episodes; others have mentioned the bit where the Doctor comments on not seeing someone who fancies you; I love how Martha's response was to look at Jack helplessly, and he says "You, too, huh?" Such a touching bit!
  • daveyboy7472daveyboy7472 Posts: 16,351
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    :eek:

    :D

    I do see where your coming from, and agree with a lot of what you say, I just think that really, this Master is essential for the equal/opposite realtionship with the 10th Doctor being much more modern etc. Thats why (apart from the drums) he is the same basic character and really quite similar to Delgado. Delgado's Master, I think, was meant to be so urbane ad menacing cos that was really similar to the 3rd Doctor persona. When we had other Master's against other Doctors but with other characteristics, it did seem a bit jarring and repetitive. If you ask me, Peter Purvis, Geoffrey Beevers and Anthony Ainley had little to no similarities ir chemistry with T Baker, and Ainley was just as disimilar to P Davidson, C Baker and S McCoy (well, prehaps not so much McCoy who got quite mysterious etc later on). Similarly Eric Roberts never seemed to have anything in common with P McGann. I think the Master works best when the similarities between him and the Doctor anre highlighted, like with Moriarty in Sherlock. Thats why I think Tennant and Simm work better together than any other Master/Doctor (except Pertwee/Delgado). He has to change, because the Doctor, and because Dr Who changes, but I think in the end he's the same basic character, as this portrayal of the Master is definitive of how I perceive his character i.e baddie Doctor. That's also why, in relation to what should happen with the Master next, I think there should be a different Master, though I'd like to see a regeneration

    Actually I think Anthony Ainley works well against Davison's Doctor because of the contrast. You have a Youthful Doctor against a older looking Master and somehow the good vs evil thing comes across a lot better. We never saw him enough with Colin Baker to really gauge a proper difference but with McCoy he seemed to work more on his level as he went back to his original interpretation in the story.

    Sometimes having a contrast can work just as well as having two similar characteristics like you said about Pertwee and Delgado.

    :)
  • ShoppyShoppy Posts: 1,094
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    Scorpio2 wrote: »
    This episode was probably RTD's most laziest one he ever wrote so if you could rewrite it what things would you change?

    More explanation of the processes of the Master's ressurection, more thought put into how the timelock was broken, Gallifrey left restored at the end and less sentimental companion appearances.

    I think my first step would be to put RTD in the cupboard beore getting on with it :D
  • AbominationAbomination Posts: 6,483
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    Shoppy wrote: »
    More explanation of the processes of the Master's ressurection, more thought put into how the timelock was broken, Gallifrey left restored at the end and less sentimental companion appearances.

    I think my first step would be to put RTD in the cupboard beore getting on with it :D

    ^ That's The End of Time that you're referring to, though I'd agree with your comments all the same :D
  • DavetheScotDavetheScot Posts: 16,623
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    I've never tended to find the big series finales that good with New Who. The showrunner always seems to feel something huge and epic is called for, and it ends up being pompous and overblown. Parting of the Ways was the only finale to avoid this for me.

    This particular finale is, I think, the worst of all. That's not to say there's nothing good in it; indeed, The Sound of Drums isn't at all bad. John Simm is, in my opinion, very good as the Master and I liked the somewhat cryptic figure of Lucy.

    It's in Last of the Time Lords that the story really loses its way for me. The Dobbie Doctor is just unpleasant, the "one year later" is a bit of a disconnect and I didn't like the Toclafane either. But worst of all was that moment with everyone chanting the Doctor's name and him being resurrected. This is actually the worst single moment in the history of the show IMO. I'd rather see the Kandyman, the Absorbaloff, the Master as Kalid in Time Flight, and the Sixth Doctor in homicidal psycho mode in his multi-coloured nightmare coat hoving into view at the head of an army of farting Slitheen than see anything like it again.
  • ShoppyShoppy Posts: 1,094
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    ^ That's The End of Time that you're referring to, though I'd agree with your comments all the same :D

    Oh yeah, I must have read too quick earlier :)

    In fact thinking about it, I think I mentioned LOTTL earlier in another post when referring to TEOT as well :P DOH!

    As for LOTTL ....... I didn't like the silly little big eyed old Doctor, that was stupid.
    The musical interludes were unnecessary as well ... Yes Russell, we get it, you're gay, so was JNT but he didn't put a disco ball in the tomb of Rassilon!
  • nattoyakinattoyaki Posts: 7,080
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    Some really good stuff here for me (Gallifrey especially), but the aged Doctor living like a dog and then Dobby were terrible, and the 'Jesus' doctor is just about the most cringeworthy thing I've seen in Doctor Who I think.
    tinny wrote: »
    :pMay i say the finale was excellent, loved thee countdown and martha as a person got a pair though later marrying mickey ????? but thats another story, find jack harkness at times though loyal a tad wet , at least the mum tried for the dr and the sister too , loved the dad very his own man , got to say the dr forgiving the master a tad sickening , ok they were friends like but was that was mentioned 1974 to 96 , russell kind of masshed that up with candy
    lordOfTime wrote: »
    If the only other surviving member of my race was dying in my arms, i'd be pretty upset too.

    I think my memory is confused here, perhaps someone could clear it up for me? I thought that was the thing the Doctor was trying to tell the Master all the way through the episode (while he was destroying civilisation, wiping out part of the population, abusing women etc), but he wouldn't listen (and didn't want to as he knew what he was going to say and didn't want to hear that?).

    None of that particularly makes sense to me...
  • lordOfTimelordOfTime Posts: 22,266
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    nattoyaki wrote: »
    I think my memory is confused here, perhaps someone could clear it up for me? I thought that was the thing the Doctor was trying to tell the Master all the way through the episode (while he was destroying civilisation, wiping out part of the population, abusing women etc), but he wouldn't listen (and didn't want to as he knew what he was going to say and didn't want to hear that?).

    None of that particularly makes sense to me...

    Well... the Doctor is something of a pacifict isn't he? Doesn't like carrying guns. Forgiveness is a way of dealing with traumatic stuff. Just look at the Doctor's face when he says "I forgive you". He's connecting with the only other living connection with his home that he has. Maniac or not, that thing is The Master.
  • nattoyakinattoyaki Posts: 7,080
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    lordOfTime wrote: »
    Well... the Doctor is something of a pacifict isn't he? Doesn't like carrying guns. Forgiveness is a way of dealing with traumatic stuff. Just look at the Doctor's face when he says "I forgive you". He's connecting with the only other living connection with his home that he has. Maniac or not, that thing is The Master.

    thanks for the answer :)

    I don't think my post was clear (in fact I'm sure it's not - sorry!).

    I remember all the way through the episode the Doctor was (weakly, mostly) trying to say something to the Master, but the Master wouldn't listen and always shut him up.

    So, the Doctor just put up with it and lived his year spent living like a doggie, being spun around in his wheelchair, and then finally turned into Dobby and put in a cage.

    All the while (as he butchered humans and destroyed the world as we know it right in front of his eyes) the Doctor wanted to tell him he forgave him?

    So, the Doctor sat for a year, stopped talking, put his trust in Martha making her way round the whole planet sufficiently and safely AND the Archangel thing coming off at totally the right time, in order to re-set the paradox? And then, after all that, to tell the Master that he had his forgiveness (?)

    Is all that right? Please correct me it's doing my head in!!
  • Philip_LambPhilip_Lamb Posts: 287
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    Give the Master a decent plot for a start. He conquers Earth pretty quickly to conquer the universe with rockets of crapness. Why not just ransom the world for....... A MILLION DOLLARS!!!
    Then get rid of the constant plaguerisms, from the captain scarlett/avengers skybase to Star wars with the bonfire at the end. I know theres more scenes ripped off but I don`t want to watch this disaster again, once was enough.
    You could have the doctor actually do something as opposed to sitting around like a spare one. Call me daft but I mean the show is focused on him, he should be saving the day.

    But the biggest foul up was The Master after years of living in stolen bodies at the end of his final incarnation gets a whole new life cycle and he throws it away????? Its almost as bad as cheapening him by saying "He wasn`t evil he was insane, he couldn`t help it"
  • lordOfTimelordOfTime Posts: 22,266
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    nattoyaki wrote: »
    thanks for the answer :)

    I don't think my post was clear (in fact I'm sure it's not - sorry!).

    I remember all the way through the episode the Doctor was (weakly, mostly) trying to say something to the Master, but the Master wouldn't listen and always shut him up.

    So, the Doctor just put up with it and lived his year spent living like a doggie, being spun around in his wheelchair, and then finally turned into Dobby and put in a cage.

    All the while (as he butchered humans and destroyed the world as we know it right in front of his eyes) the Doctor wanted to tell him he forgave him?

    So, the Doctor sat for a year, stopped talking, put his trust in Martha making her way round the whole planet sufficiently and safely AND the Archangel thing coming off at totally the right time, in order to re-set the paradox? And then, after all that, to tell the Master that he had his forgiveness (?)

    Is all that right? Please correct me it's doing my head in!!

    The Doctor didn't wait for a whole year, just to tell the Master he was forgiven. All the while he's been waiting he's been waiting to save not only the planet but the Master himself. As the only other surviing Time Lord, he sees the Master as his responsibility. But the thing is, by the time the Doctor got close to The Master he had already taken too much control. Though it was pretty grim at the time I think the Doctor, who knew about the Paradox machine, was just letting it happen. He'd told Martha to travel the world, create the lie about the weapon.

    So yes, he let these things happen, but I don't think he'd have done that, unless he knew he could destroy the paradox machine and reset time.
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