Here's the content of a random 4:3 PAL DVD from my collection. Not a sign of 625 lines :eek:
Yes we know that you are able to repeat exactly what has already been posted .
We know that originally the terms PAL and NTSC had nothing to do with 525 lines or 625 lines .
However - the terms are now universally accepted worldwide by hardware and software manufacturers as being the 525 and 625 lines.
Hurray - you know that in the 625 line system not all 625 lines are visible . Same with 525 lines.
Pedantic hair splitting means nothing.
Look at several thousand Region 1 dvd's and you won't see a single mention of the precise technical specs you will see the term NTSC which translates to it being a 525 line dvd which is why its mentioned on the Amazon listings.
DVD player and recorder setup menus all mention NTSC and PAL in relation to 525 and 625.
The fact there are a handful of obscure countries that use 525 line PAL and 625 line NTSC is irrelevant to most of the world including the UK.
There is nothing to do with NTSC anywhere on an "NTSC DVD" - just as there is no PAL encoding on a "PAL DVD" ! In both cases what is on the DVD is MPEG2 COMPONENT VIDEO files. As others have said the pixel framing will match what is normal on either NTSC or PAL TVs - but this is nothing to do with colour encoding!
Funny - I can't find a single dvd that tells me the content is MPEG2 component video files- they all say PAL or NTSC .
The fact you know the precise technical meaning of the terms is irrelevant .
If a disc says its NTSC then the modern user needs to know their tv can handle 525 line signals .
No more no less
Funny - I can't find a single dvd that tells me the content is MPEG2 component video files- they all say PAL or NTSC .
The fact you know the precise technical meaning of the terms is irrelevant .
If a disc says its NTSC then the modern user needs to know their tv can handle 525 line signals .
No more no less
720 x 480 pixel video at 29.97 fps is usually what's on the DVD and is what players/TVs need to handle. No more no less.
But I agree about the NTSC thing, it's just used lazily by DVD producers, distributors and vendors to flag up to the buyer that it's been produced to US DVD standards (except for the region code). And most people get that, so it's not a bad thing. As others have said though, they aren't really NTSC DVDs.
Funny - I can't find a single dvd that tells me the content is MPEG2 component video files- they all say PAL or NTSC .
The fact you know the precise technical meaning of the terms is irrelevant .
If a disc says its NTSC then the modern user needs to know their tv can handle 525 line signals .
No more no less
The box my two Sony HD camcorders came in say PAL on the box. They record using the H264/AVC codec either at 1080i or 1080p. . They don't have PAL outputs. The only thing this tells you is that the native frame rate recording is 25 frames/second interlaced or progressive or 50 frames/second.progressive. A box marked NTSC would contain the same model camcorder but with 29.97 and 2 x 29.97 fps. These are actually preferable to view content on a PC as screen refresh rates are generally 60Hz.
I have just dug out the manual for my Sony Bravia TV, it makes no mention of 625 or 525 lines.
Additionally there's a whole load of data regarding usable VGA formats for use with a PC.
So your so called modern user looking for 525 lines with a Sony TV wouldn't have a clue :eek:
Armed with the knowledge that a NTSC DVD will be 480i or 480p then there's clearly no issue.
But as the actual argument was that the term NTSC actually has no relevance to the number of lines then you're merely stating what we already knew .
I imagine that the guy who originally asked the question won't have a bang up to date tv with the list of formats your manual ( and mine) list as compatible.
My Pioneer dvd recorder which does actually have an HDMI output also offers a choice of recording in 625 or 525 on its setup menu.
I believe current Sony dvd recorders are based on the last Pioneer recorders that Pioneer themselves sold before pulling out which is why my Pioneer also went temporarily tits up when all the Sony machines had their problems with the Freeview data a few weeks back
I don't think any tv manual will state what you have posted.
They will say NTSC/PAL or the list as given by Graham.
That's what I said!
I suspect that this NTSC/PAL thing started out as shorthand for "DVD intended for play in Countries using the NTSC TV standard" (or "PAL TV...") and that it's just continued into the digital multistandard age because most consumers know this.
I suspect that this NTSC/PAL thing started out as shorthand for "DVD intended for play in Countries using the NTSC TV standard" (or "PAL TV...") and that it's just continued into the digital multistandard age because most consumers know this.
I agree almost .
PAL and NTSC terminology was also in use in the days of video cassettes and more importantly laserdiscs where Pioneer extended the life of the format around 1990 by releasing dual format players in the UK that enabled UK viewers access to the wealth of LD titles only available from the US
Funny - I can't find a single dvd that tells me the content is MPEG2 component video files- they all say PAL or NTSC .
The fact you know the precise technical meaning of the terms is irrelevant .
If a disc says its NTSC then the modern user needs to know their tv can handle 525 line signals .
No more no less
Without a manual or other technical details how can they possibly know this ?
Incidentally my previous much older Sony 40" TV which lacked 1080p support of any kind (768 line display) also makes no mention of 625 or 525 lines. As with the later TV 480i and 480p is accepted.
Not at all. As I've already said many modern DVD players can output any disk in PAL or NTSC.
In the menus choose PAL, all disks output in PAL. Choose NTSC, all disks output in NTSC. Choose AUTO, the output follows the disk label.
afaik the output is PAL60. You would still need a TV that works with PAL60.
Many DVD players (especially cheaper ones) can perform a full conversion.
Some of them do a really atrocious job, but they can output a "PAL" signal (576i50 625-line composite video and RGB SCART ) from an "NTSC" (480i60) disc.
I've seen one that drops fields to get from 60Hz to 50Hz, but not evenly - it outputs 25 fields, then skips 5, then outputs 25 fields, then skips 5, etc.
I've seen others that do a half-watchable job - but keeping 60Hz video as 60Hz is by far the best way, as PAL60 or RGB SCART or HDMI.
Many DVD players (especially cheaper ones) can perform a full conversion.
Some of them do a really atrocious job, but they can output a "PAL" signal (576i50 625-line composite video and RGB SCART ) from an "NTSC" (480i60) disc.
I've seen one that drops fields to get from 60Hz to 50Hz, but not evenly - it outputs 25 fields, then skips 5, then outputs 25 fields, then skips 5, etc.
I've seen others that do a half-watchable job - but keeping 60Hz video as 60Hz is by far the best way, as PAL60 or RGB SCART or HDMI.
Cheers,
David.
Thanks David
The number of actual NTSC DVD's I have is tiny. I know they work with my Denon Player (which is also multiregion). They never look quite as good as the Region 2 versions (marked PAL ) though.
Different entirely to region free blu-rays from the US, they look identical
Not at all. As I've already said many modern DVD players can output any disk in PAL or NTSC.
In the menus choose PAL, all disks output in PAL. Choose NTSC, all disks output in NTSC. Choose AUTO, the output follows the disk label.
You don't need a modern dvd player for that .
However there are very few players that will play NTSC discs as PAL 50 .
Some of the far eastern cheap imports do but the players from the likes of Panasonic , Pioneer etc won't . They output PAL 60 (or AUTO).
Get a Toshiba from a few years back and it comes preset on PAL . Put an NTSC disc in and it will reject it outright.
In the very early days of dvd Tesco sold a cheap player that output PAL 50 and the initial model also had no Macrovision so you could put any dvd in it and copy it to a VCR without worrying about region coding or even whether it was PAL or NTSC.
The next model put back the Macrovision but still output PAL50.
I've tried and tested dozens of players over the years and the only ones that output PAL50 are the noname cheapies of questionable origin and quality
I remember when Panasonic introduced NTSC playback on VCR's but it was called NTSC 443 back then.
Curiously you can copy PAL 60 to a Pioneer dvd recorder set to record NTSC but Panasonic dvd recorders will only record pure NTSC and will not accept PAL 60
the only ones that output PAL50 are the noname cheapies of questionable origin and quality
I used to have a Samsung that could do full conversion bought it around 2000 but I can't remember the model No. It did suffer a bit with jaggies being introduced with conversion. while my Pioneer bought in1999 had a pal NTSC/PAL switch which would convert NTSC to PAL60.
I used to have a Samsung that could do full conversion bought it around 2000 but I can't remember the model No. It did suffer a bit with jaggies being introduced with conversion. while my Pioneer bought in1999 had a pal NTSC/PAL switch which would convert NTSC to PAL60.
Samsung have always been a cut price brand and although they're better now than they were back then I'd still never buy Samsung gear
The Samsung 809 I think . Gave dvd a shot in the arm when it became the first sub £250 dvd player - sold in Tescos IIRC.
The only problem was that it was still a far eastern cheapie and the then new release of The Matrix was only the first dvd that the Samsung could not play properly - apparently they had not taken seamless branching into account during production.
My first multi region player in Feb 1998 was Pioneer and they were pretty terrible giving lip synch problems on many discs . I think mine was the 505 and when I went to upgrade to a 515 a couple of years later I tested it in Sevenoaks Sound and Vision and found the problem was still there albeit to a lesser extent .
Got a Panasonic A360 for £450 instead .
Didn't go back to Pioneer until a few years later when they added SACD / DVDA playback . They were much better by then
Comments
They can call it what they like, the fact is it's not NTSC by any stretch of the imagination
Same as on DVD's the term is incorrectly used to simply refer to frame rate and resolution relevant to the country.
Yes we know that you are able to repeat exactly what has already been posted .
We know that originally the terms PAL and NTSC had nothing to do with 525 lines or 625 lines .
However - the terms are now universally accepted worldwide by hardware and software manufacturers as being the 525 and 625 lines.
Hurray - you know that in the 625 line system not all 625 lines are visible . Same with 525 lines.
Pedantic hair splitting means nothing.
Look at several thousand Region 1 dvd's and you won't see a single mention of the precise technical specs you will see the term NTSC which translates to it being a 525 line dvd which is why its mentioned on the Amazon listings.
DVD player and recorder setup menus all mention NTSC and PAL in relation to 525 and 625.
The fact there are a handful of obscure countries that use 525 line PAL and 625 line NTSC is irrelevant to most of the world including the UK.
Funny - I can't find a single dvd that tells me the content is MPEG2 component video files- they all say PAL or NTSC .
The fact you know the precise technical meaning of the terms is irrelevant .
If a disc says its NTSC then the modern user needs to know their tv can handle 525 line signals .
No more no less
720 x 480 pixel video at 29.97 fps is usually what's on the DVD and is what players/TVs need to handle. No more no less.
But I agree about the NTSC thing, it's just used lazily by DVD producers, distributors and vendors to flag up to the buyer that it's been produced to US DVD standards (except for the region code). And most people get that, so it's not a bad thing. As others have said though, they aren't really NTSC DVDs.
The box my two Sony HD camcorders came in say PAL on the box. They record using the H264/AVC codec either at 1080i or 1080p. . They don't have PAL outputs. The only thing this tells you is that the native frame rate recording is 25 frames/second interlaced or progressive or 50 frames/second.progressive. A box marked NTSC would contain the same model camcorder but with 29.97 and 2 x 29.97 fps. These are actually preferable to view content on a PC as screen refresh rates are generally 60Hz.
I have just dug out the manual for my Sony Bravia TV, it makes no mention of 625 or 525 lines.
It merely says
Analogue Component and HDMI In
1080/24p, 1080p, 1080i, 720p, 576p, 576i, 480p, 480i
Additionally there's a whole load of data regarding usable VGA formats for use with a PC.
So your so called modern user looking for 525 lines with a Sony TV wouldn't have a clue :eek:
Armed with the knowledge that a NTSC DVD will be 480i or 480p then there's clearly no issue.
They will say NTSC/PAL or the list as given by Graham.
But as the actual argument was that the term NTSC actually has no relevance to the number of lines then you're merely stating what we already knew .
I imagine that the guy who originally asked the question won't have a bang up to date tv with the list of formats your manual ( and mine) list as compatible.
My Pioneer dvd recorder which does actually have an HDMI output also offers a choice of recording in 625 or 525 on its setup menu.
I believe current Sony dvd recorders are based on the last Pioneer recorders that Pioneer themselves sold before pulling out which is why my Pioneer also went temporarily tits up when all the Sony machines had their problems with the Freeview data a few weeks back
That's what I said!
I suspect that this NTSC/PAL thing started out as shorthand for "DVD intended for play in Countries using the NTSC TV standard" (or "PAL TV...") and that it's just continued into the digital multistandard age because most consumers know this.
PAL and NTSC terminology was also in use in the days of video cassettes and more importantly laserdiscs where Pioneer extended the life of the format around 1990 by releasing dual format players in the UK that enabled UK viewers access to the wealth of LD titles only available from the US
Without a manual or other technical details how can they possibly know this ?
Incidentally my previous much older Sony 40" TV which lacked 1080p support of any kind (768 line display) also makes no mention of 625 or 525 lines. As with the later TV 480i and 480p is accepted.
afaik the output is PAL60. You would still need a TV that works with PAL60.
See Multisystem PAL support and "PAL 60"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAL
Some of them do a really atrocious job, but they can output a "PAL" signal (576i50 625-line composite video and RGB SCART
I've seen one that drops fields to get from 60Hz to 50Hz, but not evenly - it outputs 25 fields, then skips 5, then outputs 25 fields, then skips 5, etc.
I've seen others that do a half-watchable job - but keeping 60Hz video as 60Hz is by far the best way, as PAL60 or RGB SCART or HDMI.
Cheers,
David.
Thanks David
The number of actual NTSC DVD's I have is tiny. I know they work with my Denon Player (which is also multiregion). They never look quite as good as the Region 2 versions (marked PAL
Different entirely to region free blu-rays from the US, they look identical
However there are very few players that will play NTSC discs as PAL 50 .
Some of the far eastern cheap imports do but the players from the likes of Panasonic , Pioneer etc won't . They output PAL 60 (or AUTO).
Get a Toshiba from a few years back and it comes preset on PAL . Put an NTSC disc in and it will reject it outright.
The next model put back the Macrovision but still output PAL50.
I've tried and tested dozens of players over the years and the only ones that output PAL50 are the noname cheapies of questionable origin and quality
I remember when Panasonic introduced NTSC playback on VCR's but it was called NTSC 443 back then.
Curiously you can copy PAL 60 to a Pioneer dvd recorder set to record NTSC but Panasonic dvd recorders will only record pure NTSC and will not accept PAL 60
The Samsung 809 I think . Gave dvd a shot in the arm when it became the first sub £250 dvd player - sold in Tescos IIRC.
The only problem was that it was still a far eastern cheapie and the then new release of The Matrix was only the first dvd that the Samsung could not play properly - apparently they had not taken seamless branching into account during production.
My first multi region player in Feb 1998 was Pioneer and they were pretty terrible giving lip synch problems on many discs . I think mine was the 505 and when I went to upgrade to a 515 a couple of years later I tested it in Sevenoaks Sound and Vision and found the problem was still there albeit to a lesser extent .
Got a Panasonic A360 for £450 instead .
Didn't go back to Pioneer until a few years later when they added SACD / DVDA playback . They were much better by then