If future deaths are foreseeable, and the DWP are specifically told such deaths are foreseeable unless the current welfare system is changed, the DWP and hence the government are liable for negligence.
And prosecution for manslaughter or even murder, because it could be argued as it's known about it's also premeditated?
And prosecution for manslaughter or even murder, because it could be argued as it's known about it's also premeditated?
No, there could not be a prosecution for either. Re manslaughter there has to be the existence of a duty of care. The DWP (rightly or wrongly) do not have a duty of care to claimants. Re murder you have to prove intent to kill or cause grievous bodily harm.
The increasing trend in suicide rates is concerning, although it should be remembered that it is still lower than it was in the 1980's and early 90's. The causes of suicide are often complex so I don't think it is sensible to blame welfare reforms, although that is not to say that an increasingly punitive regime has not been a contributory factor in the recent increase. This is the Samaritans' take:
The recent increase in the UK is not surprising given the context of a challenging economic environment and its social impact.
We need to see a greater focus at local and regional levels on the coordination and prioritisation of suicide prevention activity especially in areas with high levels of socio-economic deprivation.
We know that good collaboration between different sectors and agencies is vital to reduce suicide. The causes of suicide are complex, and we need to encourage people to seek help before they reach a crisis point.
The DWP and other organisations need to take the issue seriously and ensure that claimants are treated fairly and with respect, which is often not the case at present.
No, there could not be a prosecution for either. Re manslaughter there has to be the existence of a duty of care. The DWP (rightly or wrongly) do not have a duty of care to claimants. Re murder you have to prove intent to kill or cause grievous bodily harm.
The increasing trend in suicide rates is concerning, although it should be remembered that it is still lower than it was in the 1980's and early 90's. The causes of suicide are often complex so I don't think it is sensible to blame welfare reforms, although that is not to say that an increasingly punitive regime has not been a contributory factor in the recent increase. This is the Samaritans' take:
The DWP and other organisations need to take the issue seriously and ensure that claimants are treated fairly and with respect, which is often not the case at present.
Sooner or later a family member of one of these suicide victims will get backing for a private prosecution?
I understand that you may think it is rubbish, but to classify the comment as 'awful' is horrifying. What kind of nation have we become, that our response to the avoidable death of others is treated to this kind of response.
If someone chooses to take their own life then that is their decision
By trying to shoot the blame all over the place and score cheap political points some of you are showing great disrespect for the dead
And you show a great lack of knowledge and empathy for those who are so desperate that they feel the only way out is to end it all. Don't try to twist it.
And you show a great lack of knowledge and empathy for those who are so desperate that they feel the only way out is to end it all. Don't try to twist it.
That's true. I cannot conceive of a situation so bad that suicide is the only way out
My uncle committed suicide and his kids have never understood or forgiven him
But trying to score political points over this is the lowest form of slimy politics
Actually it's not. People who earn over £12,000 pay tax as well. . They are not rich if they earn up to 50k.
The income level to be a net contributor to public funds is around £34k+, afaik - earn less than that and you receive more in public services than you put in.
The top 1% of earners pay almost a third of all income tax.
That's not taking into account all other taxes, VAT, corporation tax, capital gains tax etc.
There's no problem with this, it's kind of how it should be, just don't deny that it's the case.
'Rich' doesn't really mean anything unless you define it - I'd say someone (or even a couple) earning £50k would have a comfortable life.
Suicide rates peaked in 2001. Were the Tories cutting welfare then as well?
No Labour were - for the disabled.
Yes - it's a nonsense argument.
Lots of factors affect suicide rates often linked to the economic situation.
It's also odd of course that the world's highest suicide rates are in Scandanavia which has the best welfare systems and pays the most benefits - maybe a more generous welfare system increases suicide rates (or it could be the dark winters!).
Yeah, we know the Tories are slowly killing off the poor. The fact that noone is really doing anything to stop it seems as much a cause for concern, though.
That's true. I cannot conceive of a situation so bad that suicide is the only way out
My uncle committed suicide and his kids have never understood or forgiven him
But trying to score political points over this is the lowest form of slimy politics
People losing their benefits can have a huge effect on their mental state, especially if they already have mental issues. Are you telling me that this wouldn't influence their decision to take their own life?
Doesn't matter though, as long as the rich are okay
So this headline and the supporting story
Senior coroner directly links suicide to welfare reforms for the first time
To you him relating one mans death translates as suicide rates going up due to welfare reforms ?
Now I do not agree with every decision they make I don't know most of them but some will be duff, however a coroner linking one death does not equate to your thread title .
As for the rich, that title seems to be thrown at anyone who is not struggling these days many of who have worked hard for their money.
And you show a great lack of knowledge and empathy for those who are so desperate that they feel the only way out is to end it all. Don't try to twist it.
People losing their benefits can have a huge effect on their mental state, especially if they already have mental issues. Are you telling me that this wouldn't influence their decision to take their own life?
Senior coroner directly links suicide to welfare reforms for the first time
To you him relating one mans death translates as suicide rates going up due to welfare reforms ?
Now I do not agree with every decision they make I don't know most of them but some will be duff, however a coroner linking one death does not equate to your thread title .
As for the rich, that title seems to be thrown at anyone who is not struggling these days many of who have worked hard for their money.
But a coroner, saying more deaths are likely is a concern. And telling the DWP straight and sending them paper work. In a document marked “sensitive”, Mary Hassell, the coroner for Inner North London, told the DWP she concluded the “trigger” for his suicide was his “fit for work” assessment and detailed her concerns over future deaths.
The report, known as a Prevention of Future Deaths or Regulation 28 report, Hassell wrote: “I found the trigger for Mr O’Sullivan’s suicide was his recent assessment by a DWP doctor as being fit for work. During the course of the inquest, the evidence revealed matters giving rise to concerns. In my opinion, there is a risk that future deaths will occur unless action is taken”
At an inquest into his death last year, Hassell said that O’ Sullivan was suffering from long-term anxiety and depression “but the intense anxiety which triggered his suicide was caused by his recent assessment by the Department of Work and Pensions [benefits agency] as being fit for work and his view of the likely consequences of that
People losing their benefits can have a huge effect on their mental state, especially if they already have mental issues. Are you telling me that this wouldn't influence their decision to take their own life?
Ditto for people losing their job
Or losing their partner
Or losing their home
Not everyone who loses their home/job/partner/benefit commits suicide.
What I am saying is that the only person to "blame" for a suicide is the person themselves.
Ditto for people losing their job
Or losing their partner
Or losing their home
Not everyone who loses their home/job/partner/benefit commits suicide.
What I am saying is that the only person to "blame" for a suicide is the person themselves.
Not so, people have committed suicide. because of actions of other people school children commit suicide.because they are being bullied, same has been proved in court over soliders committing suicide. over being bullied Both caused by actions of other people
Not so, people have committed suicide. because of actions of other people school children commit suicide.because they are being bullied, same has been proved in court over soliders committing suicide. over being bullied Both caused by actions of other people
I agree that there are triggers.
But the ultimate responsibility for a suicide lies with the suicider
But the ultimate responsibility for a suicide lies with the suicider
And people can be pushed so far and dont see any other way out, it only take the trigger to push people over the edge and in alot of cases they are in no state of mind any more after that trigger is pulled.
Comments
And prosecution for manslaughter or even murder, because it could be argued as it's known about it's also premeditated?
No, there could not be a prosecution for either. Re manslaughter there has to be the existence of a duty of care. The DWP (rightly or wrongly) do not have a duty of care to claimants. Re murder you have to prove intent to kill or cause grievous bodily harm.
The increasing trend in suicide rates is concerning, although it should be remembered that it is still lower than it was in the 1980's and early 90's. The causes of suicide are often complex so I don't think it is sensible to blame welfare reforms, although that is not to say that an increasingly punitive regime has not been a contributory factor in the recent increase. This is the Samaritans' take:
The DWP and other organisations need to take the issue seriously and ensure that claimants are treated fairly and with respect, which is often not the case at present.
Yes but the richest 50% pay 90% of the tax. If they didn't then those on lower pay would need to contribute more.
Sooner or later a family member of one of these suicide victims will get backing for a private prosecution?
And here we enter the realms of fantasy once again.
By trying to shoot the blame all over the place and score cheap political points some of you are showing great disrespect for the dead
I understand that you may think it is rubbish, but to classify the comment as 'awful' is horrifying. What kind of nation have we become, that our response to the avoidable death of others is treated to this kind of response.
And you show a great lack of knowledge and empathy for those who are so desperate that they feel the only way out is to end it all. Don't try to twist it.
IDS is responsible, it's his policies.
That's true. I cannot conceive of a situation so bad that suicide is the only way out
My uncle committed suicide and his kids have never understood or forgiven him
But trying to score political points over this is the lowest form of slimy politics
The income level to be a net contributor to public funds is around £34k+, afaik - earn less than that and you receive more in public services than you put in.
The top 1% of earners pay almost a third of all income tax.
That's not taking into account all other taxes, VAT, corporation tax, capital gains tax etc.
There's no problem with this, it's kind of how it should be, just don't deny that it's the case.
'Rich' doesn't really mean anything unless you define it - I'd say someone (or even a couple) earning £50k would have a comfortable life.
No Labour were - for the disabled.
Yes - it's a nonsense argument.
Lots of factors affect suicide rates often linked to the economic situation.
It's also odd of course that the world's highest suicide rates are in Scandanavia which has the best welfare systems and pays the most benefits - maybe a more generous welfare system increases suicide rates (or it could be the dark winters!).
Head in the ****ing sand.
So this headline and the supporting story
Senior coroner directly links suicide to welfare reforms for the first time
To you him relating one mans death translates as suicide rates going up due to welfare reforms ?
Now I do not agree with every decision they make I don't know most of them but some will be duff, however a coroner linking one death does not equate to your thread title .
As for the rich, that title seems to be thrown at anyone who is not struggling these days many of who have worked hard for their money.
Agreed and spot on.
But a coroner, saying more deaths are likely is a concern. And telling the DWP straight and sending them paper work. In a document marked “sensitive”, Mary Hassell, the coroner for Inner North London, told the DWP she concluded the “trigger” for his suicide was his “fit for work” assessment and detailed her concerns over future deaths.
The report, known as a Prevention of Future Deaths or Regulation 28 report, Hassell wrote: “I found the trigger for Mr O’Sullivan’s suicide was his recent assessment by a DWP doctor as being fit for work. During the course of the inquest, the evidence revealed matters giving rise to concerns. In my opinion, there is a risk that future deaths will occur unless action is taken”
At an inquest into his death last year, Hassell said that O’ Sullivan was suffering from long-term anxiety and depression “but the intense anxiety which triggered his suicide was caused by his recent assessment by the Department of Work and Pensions [benefits agency] as being fit for work and his view of the likely consequences of that
Ditto for people losing their job
Or losing their partner
Or losing their home
Not everyone who loses their home/job/partner/benefit commits suicide.
What I am saying is that the only person to "blame" for a suicide is the person themselves.
Not so, people have committed suicide. because of actions of other people school children commit suicide.because they are being bullied, same has been proved in court over soliders committing suicide. over being bullied Both caused by actions of other people
Paying a bit of vat with money the government give you does NOT make you a contributor.
I agree that there are triggers.
But the ultimate responsibility for a suicide lies with the suicider