i'm not saying it's awful.. but I just don't see it as the masterpiece that others seem to think it is.
Don't worry. It's no masterpiece, the huge plothole in the first episode (gas leak supposedly killed all the people in the comic book shop even though they beat out someone's brains with a tire iron) already made sure of that.
Despite the ending last night I don't think Becky is working for The Network, although I could be wrong:)
Before Jessica killed The Tramp he told her to contact a woman called Milner who works for MI5, so I reckon Becky could be working for MI5 or she could be Milner herself.
Don't worry. It's no masterpiece, the huge plothole in the first episode (gas leak supposedly killed all the people in the comic book shop even though they beat out someone's brains with a tire iron) already made sure of that.
It's somewhat implausible true, but a gas explosion could theoretically result in something metal getting smashed very hard against someone's head. Plus we don't know how extensive this network is; maybe they have the contacts to get murders hushed up.
As for the look of the show, I like it a lot too. In fact I'd say it's probably the main attraction for me. The plot itself is fairly standard CT fare, and I doubt on its own would be enough to keep me interested.
It's not really a plot hole that there was supposedly a gas leak but one person had their head bashed in. The killers weren't really bothered about covering their tracks too much, since they probably knew that nothing could be traced to them. They did cause the leak to provide a sort of cover story but all they were realy trying to do was to confuse the investigation so it wouldn't get back to them. The police might wonder why some died of gas and one by violence and so it would be impossible for them to ever say what happened and so they would never find the real killers. The key thing though is that those killers weren't that bothered about covering their tracks - they made a half-hearted effort which didn't explain the crime scene, just added to the confusion in the case.
Even if they'd gassed everyone, covering it up with a supppsed gas leak wouldn't have stood up to much scrutiny - the pipe had been yanked off the wall and the people had apparently died where they stood, even though they were only a few metres from the door. Forensic tests might show that different gas was used (if indeed it was) and that it had been applied directly to their faces. So I don't think their actions were a serious attempt to provide an explanation for the scene, just explain some details but ultimately just add confusion.
Also, does anyone else think that Ian might be dodgy? He seemed like he was genuinely on the run like the others and shocked at what was happening, but he also said that he lived with his mum - Wilson was worried about his dad but Ian never mentioned his mum or the possibility that the killers would go round his house did he?
I didn't understand why Wilson Wilson told Becky how to search for his dad's favourite website so she could see whether he was online - why didn't he just tell her the URL? Surely he would know it.
I think it's building up nicely and am enjoying the drama,I keep getting distracted by the familiarity of the locations though which is unusual (for me). .
1) The crazy green eyes that some of the major characters have (check out The Tramp and Jessica in the loos! Arby too in the right light.) could be a symptom of Deals-or it could be either another genetic modification, or they might not be entirely human. There's a hint at Bladerunner here! This is possibly backed up by The Tramps final words; "I'm one of them. Like you". That didn't make sense the first time, so I've replayed it three times, and I'm sure that's what he says. One of what? And is that why she killed him really?
2) The "Droogs" manner of walking, talking, and everything they do, tbh...again, they're not quite human-but they do have feelings, as Lee's **** craving showed. Judging by what Arby asks his master in the preview to the next episode, he has his own suspicions that he's not entirely normal..even for "a specialist". He also gets very excited with an almost childlike expression around kids-as if he's just a kid himself really, or someone that never had a childhood around other children. Poor Arby.
I'd let Jessica off the "not quite human" side in terms of her behaviour at least in that nobody who has been on the run from The Network since the age of 4 is going to be very well adjusted.
3) Project Janus: Janus is the Roman god of change and transition. Although not evil, you could consider him indifferent to suffering. He has two faces. That's going to be important too judging by what's in the manuscript!
4) In another Classical theme, the Ancient Greek meaning of Utopia is literally "no-place", or "nowhere". To me the word represents the notion of unrealisable and impractical visions: in history, the idealistic attempt to tame mankind in an ordered regime. No "democratic" political system comes close to achieving it's stated aims in practical reality, after all. If we wanted to be truly "democratic" we'd be using the internet for daily referenda by now..
So, with food shortages causing rioting down under, is the culling and mutating of humanity with the disease just another attempt at maintaining control and order?
5) Jessica Rabbit. Alice in Wonderland. Mr Rabbit. Rabbit outside the comic book store-Have I missed any?
Obvious that's tapping into a lot of cultural reference points, but is it partly because they're cooking up a human Myxomatosis? Myxomatosis was originally introduced into Australia in a bid to control the rabbit population. Just have a read of the diseases Wiki entry for a nice Utopia parallel, particularly the bit about the vaccine...and this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Year_of_the_Angry_Rabbit
In the second scene of episode one, Becky explains that the devil always appear in Utopia Volume 1 as a human-animal hybrid, usually a rabbit.That might just be the author referring to Mr Rabbit, but there could be more to it than that...
6) "There are no sides"; that one is troubling me. Rea and Fox to be revealed as the real heroes? I do hope so
7) Re-watching the first episode, Arby clearly doesn't like Lee smoking-and judging by the sweets he's popping, I reckon they're his **** substitute after recently giving up. Gotta love the detail to these scenes!
8) There's a clip in a pre-release trailer of Dugdale getting on a fishing boat. Shades of The Wicker Man! Judging by a clip of next week in the new trailer, he's off to check out the infection. Now, isn't it odd that an infection has started in the most isolated place in the UK? You'd have to expect it to at least be on the mainland, purely by the odds. How very convenient...
9) The banter between Wilson and Grant when they meet is pure gold. I think they are probably intellectual equals. Has anyone else thought that rather than the older forum members mocking Grant for only being a kid, that he's actually the most mature of the lot of them? That's partly reflected by their surprise and the fact that they're been conversing with him as a peer on the the forum-and totally swallowed his "I work in the city and shag supermodels" line! He's "just a kid", but he's done pretty darn well evading The Network on his own up to now. For a tough kid from the rough side of town who can be a bit of a "****", he's clearly got a sensitive and artistic side to him. The scene where he drapes the blanket over his hammered, sleeping mum is really sweet. He has "ambitions", like all motivated working class lads who want to live in a better world would.
His "has she got a girlfriend?" comment is pretty much what Wilson and Ian probably thought when they first met Becky, too! Even Bejan seems to have the hots for her, and he never meets her...
All told, the above at least should be evidence to those that think it's dull, style over content, or just grizzly violence that they just haven't been paying attention! Sure it's not to everyone's tastes,fair enough. But to fans of complicated otherworldly drama like me, it's up there with Twin Peaks and The Prisoner.
I love the casting, and takes a good acting performance to pull off so many wrong-footings of the audience. There is huge depths to all of the major characters, and it's portrayed in a very short amount of screen-time each seeing as there are so many of them. It's there-you just have to look for it.
Stylistically it strikes me as somewhere between Clockwork Orange, Chris Morris' "Jam", 28 Days Later just before the plague ("28 Days Earlier"? ), V For Vendetta, Dennis Potter, David Lynch and Tarantino in his early, funny-violent days (if you didn't think "Reservoir Dogs!" during Ep 1, you can't have seen it!).
Apologies for the long post. I had to get it off my chest.
I don't think she's with the Network. Her phone report was (from memory), "It's me. The manuscript exists. The boy knows where it is." All three things would already be known to the Network guy, because they had the manuscript in their possession and saw Grant steal it.
Two of the characters were arrested on false charges and one even had DNA evidence against him but had a solid alibi. This would raise a massive red flag over the evidence gathering and would justify a separate police investigation by itself - yet no-one cares about it afterwards.
This, along with the bad guys not being bothered about covering their trail, I see more as heightened reality than a plot hole. This is a world where they can get away with things like that.
The civil servant had no reason to allow himself to be blackmailed like that. I think we all know that real politicians have done things on a par with than get a mistress pregnant and basically have just got on with their lives after the stories came out.
I disagree. He'd almost certainly have lost his wife and his house and his job. She wasn't just a prostitute, but a Russian one with political connections. Compare with how Profumo had to resign because his girlfriend was also been the girlfriend of a Russian spy. This is worse. And Dugdale doesn't have anything like the clout of a senior politician.
And indeed for Dugdale, being exposed as having got a Russian prostitute preggers days after spending millions of pounds of government money on what seemed to be a useless Russian Flu vaccine, it would not look good at all. Possibly treasonable behaviour. He digs himself in deep pretty quick!
Also, does anyone else think that Ian might be dodgy? He seemed like he was genuinely on the run like the others and shocked at what was happening, but he also said that he lived with his mum - Wilson was worried about his dad but Ian never mentioned his mum or the possibility that the killers would go round his house did he?
Yup, maybe. Plus he was brand new to the forum-not sure why Bejan invited him to the meet, for that very reason. On the other hand, his imprisonment seemed pretty genuine, and he does have a family. But then, you're meant to suspect everyone in this show. If you didn't, you might miss something
RE the eyes, so far there's Becky, the health minister guy and the tramp that I've noticed. Maybe it's a sign that they have Deal's (Becky mentioned everyone who had it worked at the lab, so it could be heredity in her case).
So far I'm going with the Russians creating a virus and exposing it to sell drugs, and that the Utopia author predicted it or knew about a cure, hence the need to get the second part of the book. I really hope there's going to be a lot of twists, since it seems quite obvious.
I love the attention to detail, and humour, very Morris/Brooker-eqsue.
Another line I've only just "got" is Wilson after the gang go back to his after the pub: "Oh! Slivovitz! Brilliant, it's Polish, it'll make us go blind..."
I think that you must be on something to come out with a phrase like that, or more likely something to do with the company that produced it!
Why, because my opinion doesn't match yours? If I can see the depth to the characters and you can't, either I'm watching more intently than you or I've...imagined it?
I wish I was working for the company that made it, it'd beat working for my local County Council!
4) In another Classical theme, the Ancient Greek meaning of Utopia is literally "no-place", or "nowhere". To me the word represents the notion of unrealisable and impractical visions: in history, the idealistic attempt to tame mankind in an ordered regime. No "democratic" political system comes close to achieving it's stated aims in practical reality, after all. If we wanted to be truly "democratic" we'd be using the internet for daily referenda by now..
Thomas More first coined the word Utopia in 1516.
To achieve this, he combined two simple Greek words 'ou' for not and 'topos' for place, and then gave us his own English version of it.
The classical Greeks had no concept of Utopia, nor was it ever referred to in their literature, although scholars have since applied the term Utopia to describe certain aspects of ancient Greek culture.
But the word was coined to describe More's vision of the perfect place, and as it was a place that could never be realised, it was therefore 'no place'. Utopia was everything that England wasn't and could never be in the 16th century.
Why, because my opinion doesn't match yours? If I can see the depth to the characters and you can't, either I'm watching more intently than you or I've...imagined it?
I wouldn't worry about it Gatehouse, epic post there I'm gonna have to watch the first two eps again now
If a tv programme can promote discussion like this thread, then its doing something right. This has encouraged me and the missus to watch the opening 2 episodes again
The classical Greeks had no concept of Utopia, nor was it ever referred to in their literature, although scholars have since applied the term Utopia to describe certain aspects of ancient Greek culture.
QUOTE]
Yeah, I know they didn't coin the phrase per se. And my fuller definition of the term is more of a personal interpretation than the common perception, tbh! It's generally considered a "good" thing, a Utopia, but of course, doesn't actually exist anywhere.
I wouldn't worry about it Gatehouse, epic post there I'm gonna have to watch the first two eps again now
I think I've overdone it a bit with the third viewing, but I've been watching different characters-and from different ones perspective-each time. It's fun
Comments
Don't worry. It's no masterpiece, the huge plothole in the first episode (gas leak supposedly killed all the people in the comic book shop even though they beat out someone's brains with a tire iron) already made sure of that.
Before Jessica killed The Tramp he told her to contact a woman called Milner who works for MI5, so I reckon Becky could be working for MI5 or she could be Milner herself.
As for the look of the show, I like it a lot too. In fact I'd say it's probably the main attraction for me. The plot itself is fairly standard CT fare, and I doubt on its own would be enough to keep me interested.
Even if they'd gassed everyone, covering it up with a supppsed gas leak wouldn't have stood up to much scrutiny - the pipe had been yanked off the wall and the people had apparently died where they stood, even though they were only a few metres from the door. Forensic tests might show that different gas was used (if indeed it was) and that it had been applied directly to their faces. So I don't think their actions were a serious attempt to provide an explanation for the scene, just explain some details but ultimately just add confusion.
Also, does anyone else think that Ian might be dodgy? He seemed like he was genuinely on the run like the others and shocked at what was happening, but he also said that he lived with his mum - Wilson was worried about his dad but Ian never mentioned his mum or the possibility that the killers would go round his house did he?
http://www.itsliverpool.com/news/its-in-the-can-for-liverpool/
Hope they don't spoil it all with a weak ending.
They could then check the guy's lungs for gas though. There obviously wasn't any in it.
No, I recognise him as Faisal from Four Lions......in which he is equally brilliant but looks about twenty years older.
Going by the calibre of the cast, I'm expecting the overall plot to be pretty good.
1) The crazy green eyes that some of the major characters have (check out The Tramp and Jessica in the loos! Arby too in the right light.) could be a symptom of Deals-or it could be either another genetic modification, or they might not be entirely human. There's a hint at Bladerunner here! This is possibly backed up by The Tramps final words; "I'm one of them. Like you". That didn't make sense the first time, so I've replayed it three times, and I'm sure that's what he says. One of what? And is that why she killed him really?
2) The "Droogs" manner of walking, talking, and everything they do, tbh...again, they're not quite human-but they do have feelings, as Lee's **** craving showed. Judging by what Arby asks his master in the preview to the next episode, he has his own suspicions that he's not entirely normal..even for "a specialist". He also gets very excited with an almost childlike expression around kids-as if he's just a kid himself really, or someone that never had a childhood around other children. Poor Arby.
I'd let Jessica off the "not quite human" side in terms of her behaviour at least in that nobody who has been on the run from The Network since the age of 4 is going to be very well adjusted.
3) Project Janus: Janus is the Roman god of change and transition. Although not evil, you could consider him indifferent to suffering. He has two faces. That's going to be important too judging by what's in the manuscript!
4) In another Classical theme, the Ancient Greek meaning of Utopia is literally "no-place", or "nowhere". To me the word represents the notion of unrealisable and impractical visions: in history, the idealistic attempt to tame mankind in an ordered regime. No "democratic" political system comes close to achieving it's stated aims in practical reality, after all. If we wanted to be truly "democratic" we'd be using the internet for daily referenda by now..
So, with food shortages causing rioting down under, is the culling and mutating of humanity with the disease just another attempt at maintaining control and order?
5) Jessica Rabbit. Alice in Wonderland. Mr Rabbit. Rabbit outside the comic book store-Have I missed any?
Obvious that's tapping into a lot of cultural reference points, but is it partly because they're cooking up a human Myxomatosis? Myxomatosis was originally introduced into Australia in a bid to control the rabbit population. Just have a read of the diseases Wiki entry for a nice Utopia parallel, particularly the bit about the vaccine...and this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Year_of_the_Angry_Rabbit
In the second scene of episode one, Becky explains that the devil always appear in Utopia Volume 1 as a human-animal hybrid, usually a rabbit.That might just be the author referring to Mr Rabbit, but there could be more to it than that...
6) "There are no sides"; that one is troubling me. Rea and Fox to be revealed as the real heroes? I do hope so
7) Re-watching the first episode, Arby clearly doesn't like Lee smoking-and judging by the sweets he's popping, I reckon they're his **** substitute after recently giving up. Gotta love the detail to these scenes!
8) There's a clip in a pre-release trailer of Dugdale getting on a fishing boat. Shades of The Wicker Man! Judging by a clip of next week in the new trailer, he's off to check out the infection. Now, isn't it odd that an infection has started in the most isolated place in the UK? You'd have to expect it to at least be on the mainland, purely by the odds. How very convenient...
9) The banter between Wilson and Grant when they meet is pure gold. I think they are probably intellectual equals. Has anyone else thought that rather than the older forum members mocking Grant for only being a kid, that he's actually the most mature of the lot of them? That's partly reflected by their surprise and the fact that they're been conversing with him as a peer on the the forum-and totally swallowed his "I work in the city and shag supermodels" line! He's "just a kid", but he's done pretty darn well evading The Network on his own up to now. For a tough kid from the rough side of town who can be a bit of a "****", he's clearly got a sensitive and artistic side to him. The scene where he drapes the blanket over his hammered, sleeping mum is really sweet. He has "ambitions", like all motivated working class lads who want to live in a better world would.
His "has she got a girlfriend?" comment is pretty much what Wilson and Ian probably thought when they first met Becky, too! Even Bejan seems to have the hots for her, and he never meets her...
All told, the above at least should be evidence to those that think it's dull, style over content, or just grizzly violence that they just haven't been paying attention! Sure it's not to everyone's tastes,fair enough. But to fans of complicated otherworldly drama like me, it's up there with Twin Peaks and The Prisoner.
I love the casting, and takes a good acting performance to pull off so many wrong-footings of the audience. There is huge depths to all of the major characters, and it's portrayed in a very short amount of screen-time each seeing as there are so many of them. It's there-you just have to look for it.
Stylistically it strikes me as somewhere between Clockwork Orange, Chris Morris' "Jam", 28 Days Later just before the plague ("28 Days Earlier"?
Apologies for the long post. I had to get it off my chest.
Was I the only one who thought they were looking for Jessica Hynes?
I don't think she's with the Network. Her phone report was (from memory), "It's me. The manuscript exists. The boy knows where it is." All three things would already be known to the Network guy, because they had the manuscript in their possession and saw Grant steal it.
This, along with the bad guys not being bothered about covering their trail, I see more as heightened reality than a plot hole. This is a world where they can get away with things like that.
I disagree. He'd almost certainly have lost his wife and his house and his job. She wasn't just a prostitute, but a Russian one with political connections. Compare with how Profumo had to resign because his girlfriend was also been the girlfriend of a Russian spy. This is worse. And Dugdale doesn't have anything like the clout of a senior politician.
Yup, maybe. Plus he was brand new to the forum-not sure why Bejan invited him to the meet, for that very reason. On the other hand, his imprisonment seemed pretty genuine, and he does have a family. But then, you're meant to suspect everyone in this show. If you didn't, you might miss something
Love the style, enjoying all the characters and intrigued by the story. Hope it continues like this.
I think that you must be on something to come out with a phrase like that, or more likely something to do with the company that produced it!
So far I'm going with the Russians creating a virus and exposing it to sell drugs, and that the Utopia author predicted it or knew about a cure, hence the need to get the second part of the book. I really hope there's going to be a lot of twists, since it seems quite obvious.
I love the attention to detail, and humour, very Morris/Brooker-eqsue.
Why, because my opinion doesn't match yours? If I can see the depth to the characters and you can't, either I'm watching more intently than you or I've...imagined it?
I wish I was working for the company that made it, it'd beat working for my local County Council!
Thomas More first coined the word Utopia in 1516.
To achieve this, he combined two simple Greek words 'ou' for not and 'topos' for place, and then gave us his own English version of it.
The classical Greeks had no concept of Utopia, nor was it ever referred to in their literature, although scholars have since applied the term Utopia to describe certain aspects of ancient Greek culture.
But the word was coined to describe More's vision of the perfect place, and as it was a place that could never be realised, it was therefore 'no place'. Utopia was everything that England wasn't and could never be in the 16th century.
I wouldn't worry about it Gatehouse, epic post there
I think I've overdone it a bit with the third viewing, but I've been watching different characters-and from different ones perspective-each time. It's fun