I agree with you, Scooby. I find the current version of Who quite empty, emotionally. Moffat's a great story planner but his delivery is clinical. Perfect for Sherlock (which I love) but its taken the heart out of Who.
I loved that Rose, Martha and Donna came from real homes with families and friends. Amy and Rory seem more storyline than character. Their marital problems smack of tokenism.
I always imagine SM sitting at home watching his own episodes and clapping like crazy at his brilliance, while I sit there thinking' oh yes, very clever I think( if I can understand it!) but where is the emotion?? I like to feel SOMETHING when watching, and I dont get that these days, I could not care less about any of them at the moment.
I caught (most of) the most recent episode and was very taken with it. I haven't watched more than trailers for years, couldn't abide Tennant's Who, and it always seemed to me that people had just decided on the weirdest 'plot'-lines just for the sake of it.
This episode about a concentration camp for daleks looks good to me.
I think what it comes down is NOT the characters or actors. But the show has lost its continuation soap opera aspect. For example, the stories involving Rose, her family and Mickey. There is just no sense of continuation nowadays.
You're only 22 so it was RTD who set the template of what Doctor Who should be for you, and you feel it should be a sort of East Enders in Time and Space. Although Moffat still undoubtedly has soap elements in his vision of Who, it does not conform to that RTD template, so it is no longer to your liking.
For many older an fan, myself included, for whom the template for Who was set in the 60s, 70s or 80s, the type of soap elements introduced by RTD were total anathema, a complete betrayal of what we thought Who should be, so we were glad when Moffat took the helm, because although he put his own very unique spin on Who, in some ways he made it much closer to the Classic Who we grew up with.
Just wanted to clear up before I start that I have been enjoying Doctor Who lately but feel it hasn't drawn me into it since Tennant left.
I think what it comes down is NOT the characters or actors. But the show has lost its continuation soap opera aspect. For example, the stories involving Rose, her family and Mickey. There is just no sense of continuation nowadays.
Most of the time, I never even know where they are, where the tardis has landed or what time they are in. I just feel the show has become too complex, I am 22 years old and its complex for me, god knows what It must be like for kids.
I think its time for Moffat to leave, as soon as he goes, the show should be back on its usual feet then the ratings should see an increase.
Like I said, I am liking the series for what it is at the moment and can probably say the special effects are the best part but there was nothing like waiting until the next weeks episodes in the first 4 series when you couldn't wait where they would go next or what time they would go to.
I just feel Doctor Who is more of chore now. I doubt anyone else will share the same views as myself as the new series are deemed as the best from the people on the forum but just wanted to share my experience, as my whole family used to sit and watch the show together, now I find its just me as my family have become bored. There's obviously a reason why I seem to be the only one now still watching it.
ALSO one my thing, the reason I was also getting annoyed with Series 5 onwards is the fact it was plagued with River bloody Song....I cannot stand this woman! She has personally ruined it for me. Just wanted to get that one out lol
Like all great long-running series, Doctor Who has survived because it has continually evolved and reinvented itself. My favourite Doctor was Jon Pertwee and, for me, the years of the UNIT "family" were never bettered. Not everyone agrees. But one has to remember that was a big departure from what had gone before and was an attempt - successful as it turns out - to stave off cancellation which had been threatened after the somewhat lacklustre (in ratings terms) final Troughton series.
But that could not last forever and so the show evolved again, particularly after Tom Baker took over. I can't argue with that because the show found a new, again successful, dynamic with a more Gothic style, which then again evolved three years later.
I liked the RTD era, but that had to change and so we had Moffat's story arcs. Personally, I liked these less (though I felt S6 was much, much better than S5), but that again seems to be changing. One of the things I found most refreshing about Asylum of the Daleks was that there was hardly - new companion notwithstanding - an arc in sight. Change is healthy for the show. Indeed, it's necessary. But not all changes will be to everyone's tastes. They never could be.
There was a shift in tone when 'the eleventh hour' was broadcast. I was left feeling quite cold and bereft of the series that had been written before. Moffat is much more clinical in his writing. I miss russell t davies ability to make a sci fi scene very ordinary. perhaps this is best summed up when rose and the doctor watch the earth being blown up and then both want chips. this always made me feel connected to his characters. The mother figures, the grandfather etc very subtle but very important when you want to bring the audience in. Moffat doesn't have that in his scripts so much. The family aspect is missing from his storytelling we never saw the relationship that amelia had with family nobody missed her like say a jackie tyler. Russell grounded his characters in reality which was the best way to tell the magical story of who, and I guess nice that the whole audience goes with it. Now the audience is probably more nerdy and geeky as moffat has taken the show back towards its classic series beginnings. very well produced but you lose the family audience that way. There is no sentimentality in moffat scripts really. Yet asylum was wonderful and packed with great sense of emotion and drama and 'a' grade doctor who. so I dunno he can pull heart strings. Its better than any dalek episode russell ever wrote, and indeed many of his episodes with tennant are inferior to asylum. I think though this is where the extra millions have dissapeared from the series because there is a lack of family at times in moffats writing and he is serving the sci fi fanboy audience rather than the mainstream x factor one. The audience will still reach about 8 million though and I player figures are huge.
I absolutely agree, Johnny. I'm not sure taking the show back to classic Who is a good thing. RTD had a much more contemporary approach which I loved (and I'm 42).
Don't get me wrong - I love classic Who. But even back then I was frustrated by the Doctor's coldness. For instance, the way he said goodbye to Sarah without so much as a hug; the way he abandoned Peri, even when he found out she was still alive; the way he failed to comfort Tegan after she had been re-possessed by the Mara in Snakedance (go on, Doctor - put you arm round the girl, she's really upset and needs a hug!).
Matt's Doctor is much more like the classic Doctor's by being emotionally inaccessible - so we need real, grounded companions to bring the warmth and heart that RTD brought to the show.
But Amy and Rory are clinically delivered too. So the end result is some great stories, but not a lot of heart.
i look back on the RTD years of Doctor Who as a period when it was unquestionably my favourite show. and i loved the emotion that ran through it all. the stories were great as well, even the more complex ones were easy enough to wrap your head around.
i look back on the RTD years of Doctor Who as a period when it was unquestionably my favourite show. and i loved the emotion that ran through it all. the stories were great as well, even the more complex ones were easy enough to wrap your head around.
i miss those days.
Me too, what I liked about those years was that I could sit down with my then 5 year old son, and my 70 year old mother, and we woudl al enjoy and understand the story, these days I only watch because its Who, not because I enjoy it, my boy is now 9 and has not watched it properly for 2 years, and my mother has given up with it, it all just seems to much of a niche these days, uber fans get their fix, but the casual viewer seems to be walking away
I absolutely agree, Johnny. I'm not sure taking the show back to classic Who is a good thing. RTD had a much more contemporary approach which I loved (and I'm 42).
Don't get me wrong - I love classic Who. But even back then I was frustrated by the Doctor's coldness. For instance, the way he said goodbye to Sarah without so much as a hug; the way he abandoned Peri, even when he found out she was still alive; the way he failed to comfort Tegan after she had been re-possessed by the Mara in Snakedance (go on, Doctor - put you arm round the girl, she's really upset and needs a hug!).
Matt's Doctor is much more like the classic Doctor's by being emotionally inaccessible - so we need real, grounded companions to bring the warmth and heart that RTD brought to the show.
But Amy and Rory are clinically delivered too. So the end result is some great stories, but not a lot of heart.
that's exactly it. some of the stories in the Moffat era have been great. but they don't have the same level of emotion running through it... it's replaced with even more complex stories.
I can only take the thing about Moffat taking it back to the Who we grew up with so far. The original show didn't have timehead babies concieved in the Tardis who are brainwashed by aliens but marry the doctor and is the child of the companions. The classic show didn't show the companions family, but it did start with the Doctor kidnapping two unwilling people. it showed the development of their feelings to the doctor, and their influence on his character. They always yearned to return home and got their wish. Along the way the doctors granddaughter fell in love and started her own life.
Moffat, whilst doing a good thing in steering it away from present day earth and making it feel more old school, has gone much further than RTD ever did with "soap" elements. RTD mainly had a bit more stuff about companions falling for the Doctor (no thanks) and companions having ongoing relationships with their families (odd at first, but some if it pretty good). He shouldn't have done the thing with the donnadoctor clone thing though. (but at least he was gone in a flash).
It's an interesting thought. I personally loathed all the family members for companions in RTD's era (apart from Wilf ) and I groaned every time one of their mothers came on screen. I don't want to see a man who can travel anywhere in time and space hanging around in 21st Century London all the time. Moffat's soap opera way of doing things is certainly an interesting take on things but it all depends on your personal view. If you like, Amy, River et al, you're going to enjoy exploring the characters in depth. Otherwise, it won't be to your taste. The way i see it, the crux of the show is unchanged but it all depends on your personal preference of style. Although there isn't a huge improvement in my enjoyment levels, I prefer the new Doctor, companions and style of the show under the Moff, whereas there will be people such as the OP who preferred the way RTD did things. The beauty of Doctor Who is that it will constantly reinvent itself and the next showrunner, whenever they turn up, will have their own views on how its done. Until then, we just have to sit back and try our best to enjoy the ride.
Me too, what I liked about those years was that I could sit down with my then 5 year old son, and my 70 year old mother, and we woudl al enjoy and understand the story, these days I only watch because its Who, not because I enjoy it, my boy is now 9 and has not watched it properly for 2 years, and my mother has given up with it, it all just seems to much of a niche these days, uber fans get their fix, but the casual viewer seems to be walking away
I'm the opposite All my family and friends enjoy Who more under Moffat and it's gone from being one of my favourite shows to the show I'm sat on an internet forum desperately for 8 months to return (God that makes me sound sad )
I'm the opposite All my family and friends enjoy Who more under Moffat and it's gone from being one of my favourite shows to the show I'm sat on an internet forum desperately for 8 months to return (God that makes me sound sad )
We who have fallen a little out of love with it only have to be patient though, as sooner or later it will be to our liking, that is the beauty of Who, I do now understand where the Tennant 'haters' were coming from now, I realise what it is like to dislike a Doctor and the stories written around him, so thats one good thing that has come out of this for me
When all is said and done, this may not be my favourite period of Doctor Who but its still head and shoulder's above almost anything else on British telly.
I think there is a good possibility series 7 might be something of a merging of the best of both worlds. Fingers crossed.
BTW, Whovian - I really like Amy and Rory and River. Which is why I didn't like the way they took such good characters and did all that stuff to them! If only we could have had the same characters, but without the timehead baby assassin stuff. Although I did think that Amy and Rory should have had a love story similar to series 5, River shouldn't be their daughter. And maybe Moffat could have done a little more to make Amy's attitude to Rory a little more understandable or sympathetic.
When all is said and done, this may not be my favourite period of Doctor Who but its still head and shoulder's above almost anything else on British telly.
I know. I always think, when I come on here and moan about some aspect of DW that it sounds like I don't like the programme! In fact I love it more than anything else that's on. (Even Sherlock. I just liked Sherlock better for a while because I was miffed after The Doctor in Narnia. )
Nope. If anything Asylum of the Daleks reminded me more of Classic Who in pacing and feeling, let's not forget, for Series 2 and Series 3 of New Who we had to endure love sick puppies for companions.
And maybe Moffat could have done a little more to make Amy's attitude to Rory a little more understandable or sympathetic.
I don't like to play amateur psychoanalyst very often, but I wonder if we are getting a touch of Moffat's first marriage (from his perspective anyway) in Amy's irrational moods and attitudes. She goes a bit 'Lynda Day' at times with Rory. I never saw Joking Apart but I wonder if she's like any character in that.
I know. I always think, when I come on here and moan about some aspect of DW that it sounds like I don't like the programme! In fact I love it more than anything else that's on. (Even Sherlock. I just liked Sherlock better for a while because I was miffed after The Doctor in Narnia. )
Glad you're back aboard the Dawn Treader (sorry, TARDIS) with us, Granny!
I, personally, could never stand the companions' families, with the notable exception of Wilf (and let's face it, his relationship to Donna was written in later because people liked him on his first appearance). I came around to Mickey in the end, too. But they pretty radically changed his character from whiney no-hope boyfriend to some sort of renegade commando! Jackie and Dona's mum irritated me every time they opened their mouths. I couldn't stand any of Martha's family, particularly the mother (does RTD have mother issues, as he does seem to write bitchy, annoying, unsympathetic mothers!)
To be honest, the main reason I think they all get thought of as "soapy," is because they all seem like characters you'd find on Eastenders! I'm generally glad to see the back of all that, as none of the characters were ones I enjoyed watching. I loved the rest of the show - but those family moments weren't ones I liked. The only time I think it worked was with "Father's Day," which was fantastic.
I also don't get why Moffat's era is considered lacking in emotion. There's been tons of emotional stuff in there. A good portion of series 5 was all about the emotional trauma done to Amy by her encounter with the Doctor as a child and the effects of the crack in her wall. I think it comes down to a personal preference in how drama is written.
RTD and Moff have very different dramatic styles. I think Moff is subtler with the emotional stuff and lays most of it as background here and there RTD was more up front with the emotion permeating his dialogue. Moff's style is more to my preference, as I sometimes found RTD a bit over-the-top (Bad Wolf Bay; either of them, as a good example), but that doesn't mean one style is better than the other. It's just a matter of what you are used to/prefer to watch.
There are exceptions in style either way, too. The final "ghost scene" at the end of The Doctor's Wife (when the Doc cries and the TARDIS says she just wants to say hello) could well have fitted into RTD's era, for example.
I think there is a good possibility series 7 might be something of a merging of the best of both worlds. Fingers crossed.
BTW, Whovian - I really like Amy and Rory and River. Which is why I didn't like the way they took such good characters and did all that stuff to them! If only we could have had the same characters, but without the timehead baby assassin stuff. Although I did think that Amy and Rory should have had a love story similar to series 5, River shouldn't be their daughter. And maybe Moffat could have done a little more to make Amy's attitude to Rory a little more understandable or sympathetic.
I think that Amy is Amy and as much as she's a little hard on Rory but that's who she is and it would be slightly off on her characterisation to be that way. Even so, I agree there have been a few moments when I think Amy should have reacted better. One thing I don't like is the way the Moff is constantly trying to pit seeming to pit Rory and the Doctor against each other over Amy, it's annoying. The speech at the beginning of AGMGTW, the bit where she's talking in the neural relay in DotM etc etc.
I just feel the show has become too complex, I am 22 years old and its complex for me, god knows what It must be like for kids.
Oddly enough, I've seen people say on this very forum the reason 21st century Who is better than the classic series is that it's always been more complex and sophisticated in terms of storylines and characterisations. Now you're saying it's become too complex?
I think its time for Moffat to leave, as soon as he goes, the show should be back on its usual feet then the ratings should see an increase.
How can you know it will be better without Moffat if you can't possibly know who would replace him? Unless you seriously think Russell T Davies would come back, which sounds like what you really want. And the chances of that are pretty slim.
I, personally, could never stand the companions' families, with the notable exception of Wilf (and let's face it, his relationship to Donna was written in later because people liked him on his first appearance).
It was actually because the actor who played Donna's Dad died shortly after filming for season 4 had started, so 'Wilf' was brought back as Donna's granddad very last minute.
You can see some scenes between Donna and her dad as extras on the season 4 box set - they were re-shot with her grand dad.
There are exceptions in style either way, too. The final "ghost scene" at the end of The Doctor's Wife (when the Doc cries and the TARDIS says she just wants to say hello) could well have fitted into RTD's era, for example.
I have literally just watched this, and cried at this very scene.
Amazing episode. Well paced, Very Well Written, and actually Very Emotional.
Comments
I always imagine SM sitting at home watching his own episodes and clapping like crazy at his brilliance, while I sit there thinking' oh yes, very clever I think( if I can understand it!) but where is the emotion?? I like to feel SOMETHING when watching, and I dont get that these days, I could not care less about any of them at the moment.
This episode about a concentration camp for daleks looks good to me.
You're only 22 so it was RTD who set the template of what Doctor Who should be for you, and you feel it should be a sort of East Enders in Time and Space. Although Moffat still undoubtedly has soap elements in his vision of Who, it does not conform to that RTD template, so it is no longer to your liking.
For many older an fan, myself included, for whom the template for Who was set in the 60s, 70s or 80s, the type of soap elements introduced by RTD were total anathema, a complete betrayal of what we thought Who should be, so we were glad when Moffat took the helm, because although he put his own very unique spin on Who, in some ways he made it much closer to the Classic Who we grew up with.
Like all great long-running series, Doctor Who has survived because it has continually evolved and reinvented itself. My favourite Doctor was Jon Pertwee and, for me, the years of the UNIT "family" were never bettered. Not everyone agrees. But one has to remember that was a big departure from what had gone before and was an attempt - successful as it turns out - to stave off cancellation which had been threatened after the somewhat lacklustre (in ratings terms) final Troughton series.
But that could not last forever and so the show evolved again, particularly after Tom Baker took over. I can't argue with that because the show found a new, again successful, dynamic with a more Gothic style, which then again evolved three years later.
I liked the RTD era, but that had to change and so we had Moffat's story arcs. Personally, I liked these less (though I felt S6 was much, much better than S5), but that again seems to be changing. One of the things I found most refreshing about Asylum of the Daleks was that there was hardly - new companion notwithstanding - an arc in sight. Change is healthy for the show. Indeed, it's necessary. But not all changes will be to everyone's tastes. They never could be.
Don't get me wrong - I love classic Who. But even back then I was frustrated by the Doctor's coldness. For instance, the way he said goodbye to Sarah without so much as a hug; the way he abandoned Peri, even when he found out she was still alive; the way he failed to comfort Tegan after she had been re-possessed by the Mara in Snakedance (go on, Doctor - put you arm round the girl, she's really upset and needs a hug!).
Matt's Doctor is much more like the classic Doctor's by being emotionally inaccessible - so we need real, grounded companions to bring the warmth and heart that RTD brought to the show.
But Amy and Rory are clinically delivered too. So the end result is some great stories, but not a lot of heart.
i miss those days.
Me too, what I liked about those years was that I could sit down with my then 5 year old son, and my 70 year old mother, and we woudl al enjoy and understand the story, these days I only watch because its Who, not because I enjoy it, my boy is now 9 and has not watched it properly for 2 years, and my mother has given up with it, it all just seems to much of a niche these days, uber fans get their fix, but the casual viewer seems to be walking away
that's exactly it. some of the stories in the Moffat era have been great. but they don't have the same level of emotion running through it... it's replaced with even more complex stories.
Moffat, whilst doing a good thing in steering it away from present day earth and making it feel more old school, has gone much further than RTD ever did with "soap" elements. RTD mainly had a bit more stuff about companions falling for the Doctor (no thanks) and companions having ongoing relationships with their families (odd at first, but some if it pretty good). He shouldn't have done the thing with the donnadoctor clone thing though. (but at least he was gone in a flash).
I'm the opposite
We who have fallen a little out of love with it only have to be patient though, as sooner or later it will be to our liking, that is the beauty of Who, I do now understand where the Tennant 'haters' were coming from now, I realise what it is like to dislike a Doctor and the stories written around him, so thats one good thing that has come out of this for me
BTW, Whovian - I really like Amy and Rory and River. Which is why I didn't like the way they took such good characters and did all that stuff to them! If only we could have had the same characters, but without the timehead baby assassin stuff. Although I did think that Amy and Rory should have had a love story similar to series 5, River shouldn't be their daughter. And maybe Moffat could have done a little more to make Amy's attitude to Rory a little more understandable or sympathetic.
I know. I always think, when I come on here and moan about some aspect of DW that it sounds like I don't like the programme! In fact I love it more than anything else that's on. (Even Sherlock. I just liked Sherlock better for a while because I was miffed after The Doctor in Narnia.
I don't like to play amateur psychoanalyst very often, but I wonder if we are getting a touch of Moffat's first marriage (from his perspective anyway) in Amy's irrational moods and attitudes. She goes a bit 'Lynda Day' at times with Rory. I never saw Joking Apart but I wonder if she's like any character in that.
Glad you're back aboard the Dawn Treader (sorry, TARDIS) with us, Granny!
To be honest, the main reason I think they all get thought of as "soapy," is because they all seem like characters you'd find on Eastenders! I'm generally glad to see the back of all that, as none of the characters were ones I enjoyed watching. I loved the rest of the show - but those family moments weren't ones I liked. The only time I think it worked was with "Father's Day," which was fantastic.
I also don't get why Moffat's era is considered lacking in emotion. There's been tons of emotional stuff in there. A good portion of series 5 was all about the emotional trauma done to Amy by her encounter with the Doctor as a child and the effects of the crack in her wall. I think it comes down to a personal preference in how drama is written.
RTD and Moff have very different dramatic styles. I think Moff is subtler with the emotional stuff and lays most of it as background here and there RTD was more up front with the emotion permeating his dialogue. Moff's style is more to my preference, as I sometimes found RTD a bit over-the-top (Bad Wolf Bay; either of them, as a good example), but that doesn't mean one style is better than the other. It's just a matter of what you are used to/prefer to watch.
There are exceptions in style either way, too. The final "ghost scene" at the end of The Doctor's Wife (when the Doc cries and the TARDIS says she just wants to say hello) could well have fitted into RTD's era, for example.
I think that Amy is Amy and as much as she's a little hard on Rory but that's who she is and it would be slightly off on her characterisation to be that way. Even so, I agree there have been a few moments when I think Amy should have reacted better. One thing I don't like is the way the Moff is constantly trying to pit seeming to pit Rory and the Doctor against each other over Amy, it's annoying. The speech at the beginning of AGMGTW, the bit where she's talking in the neural relay in DotM etc etc.
Oddly enough, I've seen people say on this very forum the reason 21st century Who is better than the classic series is that it's always been more complex and sophisticated in terms of storylines and characterisations. Now you're saying it's become too complex?
How can you know it will be better without Moffat if you can't possibly know who would replace him? Unless you seriously think Russell T Davies would come back, which sounds like what you really want. And the chances of that are pretty slim.
It was actually because the actor who played Donna's Dad died shortly after filming for season 4 had started, so 'Wilf' was brought back as Donna's granddad very last minute.
You can see some scenes between Donna and her dad as extras on the season 4 box set - they were re-shot with her grand dad.
I have literally just watched this, and cried at this very scene.
Amazing episode. Well paced, Very Well Written, and actually Very Emotional.