DS9 was always the least loved when it aired. Many TNG fans resented it and B5 fans scoffed at it. Despote being so widely dismissed at the time, it did eventually receive its rightful recognition though. (I have to say I was both a resenter and scoffer at the time).
^^ I was to begin with, and it's not difficult to see why JMS was so resentful, but personally, yeah, I came to adore DS9. Almost as much as I did, and still do, B5.
They're two fantastic shows, and it's a great shame that there's an amount of bad blood between the fans.
Both B5 and DS9 are amazing and i will never understand the silly rivalry that existed between the fans. Both had great alien characters like G'kar, Londo and Odo, Quark or Kira not to mention great villains like the dominion and the shadows.
^^ I was to begin with, and it's not difficult to see why JMS was so resentful, but personally, yeah, I came to adore DS9. Almost as much as I did, and still do, B5.
They're two fantastic shows, and it's a great shame that there's an amount of bad blood between the fans.
On the whole I don't think there is bad blood anymore. There'll always be that oddball keyboard warrior, stuck in the 90s, still living at home with their parents, thinking "their" show matters above all else, but I think most of us have grown up and we can appreciate both shows.
DS9 was at it's best when it was bold in scope. The show's boiling pot of different races, religions, Starfleet regualtions, and how all these came in to conflict with each other, enabled the show to be far more incongruous with the Trek that had gone before. It also enabled, or more to the point, gave Sisko permission to be far less whiter than white compared to the average Starfleet Captain.
From the 4th season onwards, the show's unmissable, although the seventh season tailed off in quality story telling, primarily because of the departure of Terry Farrell at the end of season 6. Just when the whole final season should've been building up to what was really quite a dull but predictable climax, we got some pretty limp Ezri Dax and Worf episodes, along with the inexcusable Take Me Out to the Holosuite.
For me, In the Pale Moonlight is still the standout episode of Trek from across all the various series. It turned Starfleet's moral righteousness on its head.
TNG - Loved from the get go. Sure, takes a while to get going, but as stated above, if you're into the characters then there's rich pickings from the start. I know a lot of people thought the final season was a step down in quality, but I don't buy that. After the start of the third season it's incredibly consistent, and consistently strong.
DS9 - I loathed for the first season. A couple of standout episodes, but this WASN'T TNG, which at the time, was a problem for me and a strike against the show. The second season improved, particularly the latter half of the season. The finale sealed my reversal of opinion and the show went on to be every bit as consistent and brilliant as TNG had before it. The cast, was simply fantastic, across the board, and they broke a number of Trek taboos - utilising religion as narrative vehicle, having a Captain (or Commander) with responsibilities, featuring a galactic war, and showing the Federation in a less-than-perfect light. DS9 was IMO, still the last time that Star Trek dared to be bold.
VOY - Loved the premise. I was a huge fan of the Maquis/Cardassian story arc in TNG and DS9 and the prospect of a mixed crew in the far reaches of the galaxy figuring out how to get home while working through their differences, sounded like a solid basis. Sadly, it was all swept under the carpet by the time the third episode had aired. Way to go.....Then Jeri Taylor proceeded to work her 'magic' and the show was doomed. In retrospect I actually find that the series works a lot better if you completely disregard the central premise of the show, the voyage home. If you concentrate on the standalones then Voyager tells a lot better standard of story. The arc shows, and the Borg episodes are strikes against it IMO rather than any particular highlights.
ENT - Again, loved the idea. The first couple of seasons, I found a chore. Brief highlights which were few and far between. They changed things up for the third year, and things improved. Not enough, but it was still better than the first two seasons. Year four, was much better again and showed the series at its height and signalled what might have been. In hindsight, the series is just a massive missed opportunity. Like Voyager before it, it was blighted with some woeful miscasting and tired storytelling. I can watch the third series repeatedly, and the fourth, but the first two are a struggle and I usually cherry-pick the handful of episodes that are actually good.
Thanks for all of that
You come across as so knowledgeable when it comes to a few sci-fi shows we have discussed in the past, so it's nice to hear what you have to say, especially from a viewer who watched most of the shows when originally aired.
TNG came at a time when there was no space sci fi on air whatsoever. And there hadn't been any in years. There was no internet (as we know it today) and VHS hadn't taken off yet. For better or worse many people became very attached to TNG, not because it was that great, but because if was the first taste of new space sci-fi we'd had in ages. Thankfully the fans patience paid off and we were eventually rewarded with a decent show from season 3 onwards. I think many recognise that since TNG, stronger sci fi has come and gone, but it's great is that despite that recognition, the affection remains.
DS9 was always the least loved when it aired. Many TNG fans resented it and B5 fans scoffed at it. Despote being so widely dismissed at the time, it did eventually receive its rightful recognition though. (I have to say I was both a resenter and scoffer at the time).
I kinda got the impression TNG really gave the sci-fi genre a kick up the backside at that time, as there wasn't many or perhaps no other successful Sci-fi shows on the air for viewers to see, apart from the later seasons of doctor who.
Both B5 and DS9 are amazing and i will never understand the silly rivalry that existed between the fans. Both had great alien characters like G'kar, Londo and Odo, Quark or Kira not to mention great villains like the dominion and the shadows.
I can see why there was some tension. Both shows on the outside are incredibly alike. Especially as both shows's main theme is to do with war. But on the inside, i do feel both show's are different in the characters and the standalone stories they told.
JMS did build a bridge to ease the tension by having Majel Roddenberry as a guest star for Babylon 5, for which she was fabulous in i may add. I don't know whether that made difference between both fanbases but it proved no bad blood between Majel and JMS.
I kinda got the impression TNG really gave the sci-fi genre a kick up the backside at that time, as there wasn't many or perhaps no other successful Sci-fi shows on the air for viewers to see, apart from the later seasons of doctor who.
It certainly triggered the explosion of sci-fi and fantasy that followed, but that's only retrospective observation. At the time (I'm talking early seasons) we were just glad to have sci-fi on TV, it wasn't really seen as a kick up the back side because none of us had an any idea how popular and successful the genre would go on to become.
[JMS did build a bridge to ease the tension by having Majel Roddenberry as a guest star for Babylon 5, for which she was fabulous in i may add. I don't know whether that made difference between both fanbases but it proved no bad blood between Majel and JMS.
I had to look after Majel Barret at a convention once, and I got to hang around her a fair bit. It was a fan-run convention, not one of the big corporate events, so it was a more relaxed affair. As I was a bouncer at the time (at weekends), I was put in charge of looking after her during the event.
Thanks for all of that
You come across as so knowledgeable when it comes to a few sci-fi shows we have discussed in the past, so it's nice to hear what you have to say, especially from a viewer who watched most of the shows when originally aired.
I admit, when it comes to certain shows, I'm an unashamed geek!
I kinda got the impression TNG really gave the sci-fi genre a kick up the backside at that time, as there wasn't many or perhaps no other successful Sci-fi shows on the air for viewers to see, apart from the later seasons of doctor who.
Yep, TNG pretty much kicked off a renaissance in Sci-Fi in the late 80s, along with Quantum Leap which started a few years after TNG. Between them they lay the foundations for a glut of shows that turned up in the 90s.
I can see why there was some tension. Both shows on the outside are incredibly alike. Especially as both shows's main theme is to do with war. But on the inside, i do feel both show's are different in the characters and the standalone stories they told.
Bless him, I love him, but JMS probably stirred up a lot of the animosity B5 fans had towards DS9. He was, shall we say, on the vocal side in regards to what happened when he pitched B5 to Paramount. He also didn't really get over DS9 being way more popular. His view was pretty much that B5 had to work a lot harder to get the respect it deserved, whereas DS9, to a degree, got it simply because of the 'Star Trek' moniker. Not saying I agree with that necessarily, but that's my interpretation based on his comments down the years.
JMS did build a bridge to ease the tension by having Majel Roddenberry as a guest star for Babylon 5, for which she was fabulous in i may add. I don't know whether that made difference between both fanbases but it proved no bad blood between Majel and JMS.
Not forgetting Walter Koenig, as my namesake, in the series.
As RebelScum pointed out, thankfully, everyone's a lot more mellow about the subject these days, water long since passed under the bridge.
It certainly triggered the explosion of sci-fi and fantasy that followed, but that's only retrospective observation. At the time (I'm talking early seasons) we were just glad to have sci-fi on TV, it wasn't really seen as a kick up the back side because none of us had an any idea how popular and successful the genre would go on to become.
I had to look after Majel Barret at a convention once, and I got to hang around her a fair bit. It was a fan-run convention, not one of the big corporate events, so it was a more relaxed affair. As I was a bouncer at the time (at weekends), I was put in charge of looking after her during the event.
She was very down to earth, and she liked a drink. When signing autographs she was very positive and caring towards the fans, it came across as genuine. On stage she spent her time talking about Gene Roddenberry's legacy. She talked about him with passion and emotion. I think that took a lot out of her. I imagine it must have been difficult for her to reconcile the love they shared with the fact he treated her so badly, having affairs all over the place. I think the drink helped with that. But as I said, she was very down to earth, very natural to be around and liked to keep the mood upbeat.
Can't remeber his name but Mr.Homm was also at the same event, he was very humble, and yes, very quiet.
^^ I was to begin with, and it's not difficult to see why JMS was so resentful, but personally, yeah, I came to adore DS9. Almost as much as I did, and still do, B5.
They're two fantastic shows, and it's a great shame that there's an amount of bad blood between the fans.
I remember reading an interview with Alexander Siddig and he was asked about the DS9/B5 rivalry. He pretty much responded by blaming the journalist for stirring it and reckoned it didn't actually exist outside of the media trying to create it. He admitted to personally watching B5 and thinking it was great and believed that those working on B5 probably watched DS9, too.
I think he was right for the most part. There were hardcore fans who wouldn't accept anything but their personal favourite, but I think they were a minority. The actual "rivalry," though, was just the sci-fi media latching on to something to write about.
A separate note, but does anyone else remember how hated TNG was when it first started? It seems to have become a part of history that was forgotten, but just as DS9 was hated for not being like TNG, TNG was hated for being Trek without Kirk, Spock and McCoy.
The way I remember it, there was a lot of hate for TNG from many and the big turnaround occurred when Star Trek 5 bombed terribly at the same time TNG hit its stride in season 3. Things just seemed to work in TNG's favour at that point. ST5 led a lot of fans to look to TNG in the hope that it could offer better than 5 gave and TNG responded with one of its best runs of episodes culminating in "The Best of Both Worlds."
That always seemed to be a turning point, where TNG suddenly became recognised as not a poor knock-off of TOS and, in the minds of many, actually usurped the original in terms of quality.
I always remember the irony when people started using TNG as the rod to beat other sci-fi shows with!
She was very down to earth, and she liked a drink. When signing autographs she was very positive and caring towards the fans, it came across as genuine. On stage she spent her time talking about Gene Roddenberry's legacy. She talked about him with passion and emotion. I think that took a lot out of her. I imagine it must have been difficult for her to reconcile the love they shared with the fact he treated her so badly, having affairs all over the place. I think the drink helped with that. But as I said, she was very down to earth, very natural to be around and liked to keep the mood upbeat.
Can't remeber his name but Mr.Homm was also at the same event, he was very humble, and yes, very quiet.
Ahh that's nice. How interesting. I can't imagine the pressure she felt to carry on her Husband's legacy, without wanting to ruin future projects and upset fans.
I remember reading an interview with Alexander Siddig and he was asked about the DS9/B5 rivalry. He pretty much responded by blaming the journalist for stirring it and reckoned it didn't actually exist outside of the media trying to create it. He admitted to personally watching B5 and thinking it was great and believed that those working on B5 probably watched DS9, too.
I think he was right for the most part. There were hardcore fans who wouldn't accept anything but their personal favourite, but I think they were a minority. The actual "rivalry," though, was just the sci-fi media latching on to something to write about.
A separate note, but does anyone else remember how hated TNG was when it first started? It seems to have become a part of history that was forgotten, but just as DS9 was hated for not being like TNG, TNG was hated for being Trek without Kirk, Spock and McCoy.
The way I remember it, there was a lot of hate for TNG from many and the big turnaround occurred when Star Trek 5 bombed terribly at the same time TNG hit its stride in season 3. Things just seemed to work in TNG's favour at that point. ST5 led a lot of fans to look to TNG in the hope that it could offer better than 5 gave and TNG responded with one of its best runs of episodes culminating in "The Best of Both Worlds."
That always seemed to be a turning point, where TNG suddenly became recognised as not a poor knock-off of TOS and, in the minds of many, actually usurped the original in terms of quality.
I always remember the irony when people started using TNG as the rod to beat other sci-fi shows with!
You would be surprised the amount of things that are hated from the start and then when minds are changed, many will try to cover up that there was hate in the first place.
Comments
On the whole I don't think there is bad blood anymore. There'll always be that oddball keyboard warrior, stuck in the 90s, still living at home with their parents, thinking "their" show matters above all else, but I think most of us have grown up and we can appreciate both shows.
From the 4th season onwards, the show's unmissable, although the seventh season tailed off in quality story telling, primarily because of the departure of Terry Farrell at the end of season 6. Just when the whole final season should've been building up to what was really quite a dull but predictable climax, we got some pretty limp Ezri Dax and Worf episodes, along with the inexcusable Take Me Out to the Holosuite.
For me, In the Pale Moonlight is still the standout episode of Trek from across all the various series. It turned Starfleet's moral righteousness on its head.
Thanks for all of that
You come across as so knowledgeable when it comes to a few sci-fi shows we have discussed in the past, so it's nice to hear what you have to say, especially from a viewer who watched most of the shows when originally aired.
I kinda got the impression TNG really gave the sci-fi genre a kick up the backside at that time, as there wasn't many or perhaps no other successful Sci-fi shows on the air for viewers to see, apart from the later seasons of doctor who.
I can see why there was some tension. Both shows on the outside are incredibly alike. Especially as both shows's main theme is to do with war. But on the inside, i do feel both show's are different in the characters and the standalone stories they told.
JMS did build a bridge to ease the tension by having Majel Roddenberry as a guest star for Babylon 5, for which she was fabulous in i may add. I don't know whether that made difference between both fanbases but it proved no bad blood between Majel and JMS.
It certainly triggered the explosion of sci-fi and fantasy that followed, but that's only retrospective observation. At the time (I'm talking early seasons) we were just glad to have sci-fi on TV, it wasn't really seen as a kick up the back side because none of us had an any idea how popular and successful the genre would go on to become.
I had to look after Majel Barret at a convention once, and I got to hang around her a fair bit. It was a fan-run convention, not one of the big corporate events, so it was a more relaxed affair. As I was a bouncer at the time (at weekends), I was put in charge of looking after her during the event.
I admit, when it comes to certain shows, I'm an unashamed geek!
Yep, TNG pretty much kicked off a renaissance in Sci-Fi in the late 80s, along with Quantum Leap which started a few years after TNG. Between them they lay the foundations for a glut of shows that turned up in the 90s.
Bless him, I love him, but JMS probably stirred up a lot of the animosity B5 fans had towards DS9. He was, shall we say, on the vocal side in regards to what happened when he pitched B5 to Paramount. He also didn't really get over DS9 being way more popular. His view was pretty much that B5 had to work a lot harder to get the respect it deserved, whereas DS9, to a degree, got it simply because of the 'Star Trek' moniker. Not saying I agree with that necessarily, but that's my interpretation based on his comments down the years.
Not forgetting Walter Koenig, as my namesake, in the series.
As RebelScum pointed out, thankfully, everyone's a lot more mellow about the subject these days, water long since passed under the bridge.
Wow. What was she like?
She was very down to earth, and she liked a drink. When signing autographs she was very positive and caring towards the fans, it came across as genuine. On stage she spent her time talking about Gene Roddenberry's legacy. She talked about him with passion and emotion. I think that took a lot out of her. I imagine it must have been difficult for her to reconcile the love they shared with the fact he treated her so badly, having affairs all over the place. I think the drink helped with that. But as I said, she was very down to earth, very natural to be around and liked to keep the mood upbeat.
Can't remeber his name but Mr.Homm was also at the same event, he was very humble, and yes, very quiet.
I remember reading an interview with Alexander Siddig and he was asked about the DS9/B5 rivalry. He pretty much responded by blaming the journalist for stirring it and reckoned it didn't actually exist outside of the media trying to create it. He admitted to personally watching B5 and thinking it was great and believed that those working on B5 probably watched DS9, too.
I think he was right for the most part. There were hardcore fans who wouldn't accept anything but their personal favourite, but I think they were a minority. The actual "rivalry," though, was just the sci-fi media latching on to something to write about.
A separate note, but does anyone else remember how hated TNG was when it first started? It seems to have become a part of history that was forgotten, but just as DS9 was hated for not being like TNG, TNG was hated for being Trek without Kirk, Spock and McCoy.
The way I remember it, there was a lot of hate for TNG from many and the big turnaround occurred when Star Trek 5 bombed terribly at the same time TNG hit its stride in season 3. Things just seemed to work in TNG's favour at that point. ST5 led a lot of fans to look to TNG in the hope that it could offer better than 5 gave and TNG responded with one of its best runs of episodes culminating in "The Best of Both Worlds."
That always seemed to be a turning point, where TNG suddenly became recognised as not a poor knock-off of TOS and, in the minds of many, actually usurped the original in terms of quality.
I always remember the irony when people started using TNG as the rod to beat other sci-fi shows with!
Ahh that's nice. How interesting. I can't imagine the pressure she felt to carry on her Husband's legacy, without wanting to ruin future projects and upset fans.
You would be surprised the amount of things that are hated from the start and then when minds are changed, many will try to cover up that there was hate in the first place.