Walking out of a shop with £200 worth of unpaid goods is stealing irrespective of whether it was a 'mistake' or not. It might do her good to be charged and stop her from doing it again. If you do something wrong you do need to suffer the consequences; even if you are a silly little airhead who can't seem to fart without having a crisis.
It really isn't stealing if it's a mistake. You are utterly wrong. Stealing is something you do deliberately.
& saying people are 'frequently not charged' is not true - it happens very rarely and it has to be pretty easy to prove i.e. someone who is with a child or children, or a patient or who is very stressed about something.
I know personally of three people who took items from a shop without paying and were stopped but weren't charged. I can't imagine it's that rare.
How in any case would having a child with you be any kind of evidence that you weren't stealing? Do you think shoplifters never take their kids as a disguise?
It really isn't stealing if it's a mistake. You are utterly wrong. Stealing is something you do deliberately.
I know personally of three people who took items from a shop without paying and were stopped but weren't charged. I can't imagine it's that rare.
How in any case would having a child with you be any kind of evidence that you weren't stealing? Do you think shoplifters never take their kids as a disguise?
What?
OK: Let me repeat:
Taking things from a shop WITHOUT PAYING is stealing. Whether the stealing is intentional or a 'mistake', IT. IS. STEALING.
verb (past stole /stəʊl/; past participle stolen /ˈstəʊlən/)
1 [with object] take (another person’s property) without permission or legal right and without intending to return it:
Taking things from a shop WITHOUT PAYING is stealing. Whether the stealing is intentional or a 'mistake', IT. IS. STEALING.
Don't bother with DaveTheScot. Seriously. Just don't bother. It's a waste of time. He thinks Natalie Cassidy is a hot looking woman. He'll excuse the antics of everything he finds attractive. Don't try to rationalise things to him. I'm sure if Sarah Harding murdered someone in cold blood he'd argue it must have been a kitchen mishap.
Don't bother with DaveTheScot. Seriously. Just don't bother. It's a waste of time. He thinks Natalie Cassidy is a hot looking woman. He'll excuse the antics of everything he finds attractive. Don't try to rationalise things to him. I'm sure if Sarah Harding murdered someone in cold blood he'd argue it must have been a kitchen mishap.
Right. Lets take what you've said one by one.
You don't find Natalie Cassidy attractive, I do. Fine. I have no problem with your opinion, but don't act as if it's fact. Attraction is personal, and one person is not right and another wrong.
Second, I do not and never have excused the actions of those I find attractive. That is an outright lie. I have certainly defended them sometimes against criticism I believe unwarranted, as here, but you'll find I criticise them elsewhere. I find Cheryl Cole attractive, but have criticised her for her assault on the toilet attendant; I have never defended that and never would. I find Lindsay Lohan attractive, but have never defended her lifestyle (I have expressed sympathy for her, but that's another matter). You are being dishonest.
Third, I don't even find Sarah Harding attractive, particularly, so why mention her at all?
Fourth, your post is a personal attack on another poster and utterly irrelevant to the discussion. As you'll see, me and Prumeister were not disputing so much whether Helen Flanagan was actually intentionally taking the items without paying - neither of us know, though it seems to have been carried openly, which suggests a mistake to me - but whether it was stealing even if it was unintentional.
As you will see, CreamPuff has provided a dictionary definition which proves me correct. Your intervention, designed at suggesting my point of view - my factually correct point of view - was some kind of trolling that couldn't be treated seriously, shows you up as what you are.
verb (past stole /stəʊl/; past participle stolen /ˈstəʊlən/)
1 [with object] take (another person’s property) without permission or legal right and without intending to return it:
Another definition here:
to take, get, or win insidiously, surreptitiously, subtly, or by chance:
What of it? Anyone can find *something* on the interweb which supports their point of view (however incompletely) if they try hard enough.
I'll stick with English law when we're talking about alleged crimes in England thanks, not some dubious American dictionary.
Fine by me:)
& yes, here is the section you advised me to find:
3.-(1) Subject to subsection (3) below, a person who, know
ing that payment on the spot for any goods supplied or service
done is required or expected from him, dishonestly makes off
without having paid as required or expected and with intent to
avoid payment of the amount due shall be guilty of an offence.(2) For purposes of this section "payment on the spot "
includes payment at the time of collecting goods on which work
has been done or in respect of which service has been provided.
(3) Subsection (1) above shall not apply where the supply of
the goods or the doing of the service is contrary to law, or
where the service done is such that payment is not legally
enforceable.
(4) Any person may arrest without warrant anyone who is,
This is all very well but it is talking about stealing as an offence within the law and not technically as the definition of the word per se. You seem like a pedantic sort of fellow so thought it was best to clear this up.
Stealing, as the literal definition of the word, means to take whether insiduously or by accident. Of course, we do not know if Flanagan will be charged with anything but the fact remains that she walked out of a shop without paying which is actually stealing.
This is all very well but it is talking about stealing as an offence within the law and not technically as the definition of the word per se. You seem like a pedantic sort of fellow so thought it was best to clear this up.
Stealing, as the literal definition of the word, means to take whether insiduously or by accident. Of course, we do not know if Flanagan will be charged with anything but the fact remains that she walked out of a shop without paying which is actually stealing.
You managed to find one online citation which (sort of) supports your opinion, and then only by omission. There are plenty more which do in fact specify the critical aspect of intent.
transitive verb
1.to take or appropriate without right or leave and with intent to keep or make use of wrongfully <stole a car>
As for me being pedantic... well, it's you who are now trying to draw a semantic distinction between the actual crime of theft and a wider definition of "stealing." Yes, the verb "to steal" can be used in many other senses, such as "Boots stole a march on the competition with their new product line" or from your own link that you (partially) quoted: "to take, get, or win insidiously, surreptitiously, subtly, or by chance: He stole my girlfriend." Within the context of this thread though, it's pretty obvious that we're discussing whether or not this person committed an offence by taking goods from the shop without paying from them.
I'm glad you now have a better understanding of the law, anyway. My time hasn't been entirely wasted.
You managed to find one online citation which (sort of) supports your opinion, and then only by omission. There are plenty more which do in fact specify the critical aspect of intent.
As for me being pedantic... well, it's you who are now trying to draw a semantic distinction between the actual crime of theft and a wider definition of "stealing." Yes, the verb "to steal" can be used in many other senses, such as "Boots stole a march on the competition with their new product line" or from your own link that you (partially) quoted: "to take, get, or win insidiously, surreptitiously, subtly, or by chance: He stole my girlfriend." Within the context of this thread though, it's pretty obvious that we're discussing whether or not this person committed an offence by taking goods from the shop without paying from them.
I'm glad you now have a better understanding of the law, anyway. My time hasn't been entirely wasted.
Mine neither. Next time I want a supercilious diatribe when discussing a minor Z Lister's misdemeanours, I shall know where to come:)
Don't bother with DaveTheScot. Seriously. Just don't bother. It's a waste of time. He thinks Natalie Cassidy is a hot looking woman. He'll excuse the antics of everything he finds attractive. Don't try to rationalise things to him. I'm sure if Sarah Harding murdered someone in cold blood he'd argue it must have been a kitchen mishap.
It's rather unfair to single Dave out. There are a few "white knights" in this forum but you're acting like Dave's the only one.
It IS an annoying trait for a forum member to have, though.
Think I'm losing the will to live after reading all that.:(
What on earth is so hard to understand about walking out of a shop with out paying is theft?
It seems so simple to me.
It's bizarre how people seem to really have it in for Helen with this one particular incident. I'm no fan of her but come on, you guys. You're being ridiculous.
I could understand accidentally walking out with a small item (it would still be theft, even though it was accidental), but how does one walk out a store with £200 worth of goods and not realise?!
I could understand accidentally walking out with a small item (it would still be theft, even though it was accidental), but how does one walk out a store with £200 worth of goods and not realise?!
I agree but it does seem like Helen really IS that dippy. It's not hard to believe with her, honestly.
Does anyone seriously believe that Flanagan cares what her critics are saying about her. While she's depositing her dosh down the bank her critics are down the `Wonga` shop seeing how much they can borrow this week :rolleyes::rolleyes:
It's bizarre how people seem to really have it in for Helen with this one particular incident. I'm no fan of her but come on, you guys. You're being ridiculous.
Walking out with £200 worth of goods from a shop and just saying 'oh bless how ditzy' is obscene IMHO. It's about the time the silly vacuous bint grew the f**k up and landed in the real world.
Comments
It really isn't stealing if it's a mistake. You are utterly wrong. Stealing is something you do deliberately.
I know personally of three people who took items from a shop without paying and were stopped but weren't charged. I can't imagine it's that rare.
How in any case would having a child with you be any kind of evidence that you weren't stealing? Do you think shoplifters never take their kids as a disguise?
What?
OK: Let me repeat:
Taking things from a shop WITHOUT PAYING is stealing. Whether the stealing is intentional or a 'mistake', IT. IS. STEALING.
http://i.huffpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/299730/slide_299730_2502167_free.jpg?1369739291940
Course it is.
I was guilty of stealing..................no matter how unintentionally.:o
1 [with object] take (another person’s property) without permission or legal right and without intending to return it:
just ask dale winton
Don't bother with DaveTheScot. Seriously. Just don't bother. It's a waste of time. He thinks Natalie Cassidy is a hot looking woman. He'll excuse the antics of everything he finds attractive. Don't try to rationalise things to him. I'm sure if Sarah Harding murdered someone in cold blood he'd argue it must have been a kitchen mishap.
Right. Lets take what you've said one by one.
You don't find Natalie Cassidy attractive, I do. Fine. I have no problem with your opinion, but don't act as if it's fact. Attraction is personal, and one person is not right and another wrong.
Second, I do not and never have excused the actions of those I find attractive. That is an outright lie. I have certainly defended them sometimes against criticism I believe unwarranted, as here, but you'll find I criticise them elsewhere. I find Cheryl Cole attractive, but have criticised her for her assault on the toilet attendant; I have never defended that and never would. I find Lindsay Lohan attractive, but have never defended her lifestyle (I have expressed sympathy for her, but that's another matter). You are being dishonest.
Third, I don't even find Sarah Harding attractive, particularly, so why mention her at all?
Fourth, your post is a personal attack on another poster and utterly irrelevant to the discussion. As you'll see, me and Prumeister were not disputing so much whether Helen Flanagan was actually intentionally taking the items without paying - neither of us know, though it seems to have been carried openly, which suggests a mistake to me - but whether it was stealing even if it was unintentional.
As you will see, CreamPuff has provided a dictionary definition which proves me correct. Your intervention, designed at suggesting my point of view - my factually correct point of view - was some kind of trolling that couldn't be treated seriously, shows you up as what you are.
Another definition here:
to take, get, or win insidiously, surreptitiously, subtly, or by chance:
Google for the Theft Act 1978, paying particular attention to Section 3 paragraph 1. Then check out the legal meanings of "mens rea" and "dishonesty."
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/stealing?s=t
I'll stick with English law when we're talking about alleged crimes in England thanks, not some dubious American dictionary.
Fine by me:)
& yes, here is the section you advised me to find:
3.-(1) Subject to subsection (3) below, a person who, know
ing that payment on the spot for any goods supplied or service
done is required or expected from him, dishonestly makes off
without having paid as required or expected and with intent to
avoid payment of the amount due shall be guilty of an offence.(2) For purposes of this section "payment on the spot "
includes payment at the time of collecting goods on which work
has been done or in respect of which service has been provided.
(3) Subsection (1) above shall not apply where the supply of
the goods or the doing of the service is contrary to law, or
where the service done is such that payment is not legally
enforceable.
(4) Any person may arrest without warrant anyone who is,
This is all very well but it is talking about stealing as an offence within the law and not technically as the definition of the word per se. You seem like a pedantic sort of fellow so thought it was best to clear this up.
Stealing, as the literal definition of the word, means to take whether insiduously or by accident. Of course, we do not know if Flanagan will be charged with anything but the fact remains that she walked out of a shop without paying which is actually stealing.
Oxford Dictionaries
Merriam Webster
As for me being pedantic... well, it's you who are now trying to draw a semantic distinction between the actual crime of theft and a wider definition of "stealing." Yes, the verb "to steal" can be used in many other senses, such as "Boots stole a march on the competition with their new product line" or from your own link that you (partially) quoted: "to take, get, or win insidiously, surreptitiously, subtly, or by chance: He stole my girlfriend." Within the context of this thread though, it's pretty obvious that we're discussing whether or not this person committed an offence by taking goods from the shop without paying from them.
I'm glad you now have a better understanding of the law, anyway. My time hasn't been entirely wasted.
Mine neither. Next time I want a supercilious diatribe when discussing a minor Z Lister's misdemeanours, I shall know where to come:)
It's rather unfair to single Dave out. There are a few "white knights" in this forum but you're acting like Dave's the only one.
It IS an annoying trait for a forum member to have, though.
What on earth is so hard to understand about walking out of a shop with out paying is theft?
It seems so simple to me.
It's bizarre how people seem to really have it in for Helen with this one particular incident. I'm no fan of her but come on, you guys. You're being ridiculous.
I agree but it does seem like Helen really IS that dippy. It's not hard to believe with her, honestly.
Walking out with £200 worth of goods from a shop and just saying 'oh bless how ditzy' is obscene IMHO. It's about the time the silly vacuous bint grew the f**k up and landed in the real world.