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Clock is ticking for Greece after failure of Eurogroup meeting.
OvertheUnder
Posts: 4,764 Forum Member
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From guardian livefeed.
I guess it's up to Greece to play ball. If they decide not to ask for another meeting with the Eurogroup then I guess the clock starts ticking for the 28th and default.
Is Friday the new deadline?
There could be a new eurogroup meeting on Friday, but only if Greece asks for a bailout extension, Dijsselbloem replies.
And he reveals that he’s spoken to European Council president Donald Tusk, who has no intention of calling a summit.
I guess it's up to Greece to play ball. If they decide not to ask for another meeting with the Eurogroup then I guess the clock starts ticking for the 28th and default.
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Good to see Greece not being bullied.
Live feed.
There is nothing the EU could offer that isn't one of those. They always kick the can down the road.
EDIT: This is utter madness from Varoufakis, Utter madness.
Hugely intelligent man, natural statesman - answered the questions very well and took control of the room. His ideas are fresh and modern and his courage and guile impressive.
I wish we had a politician of his caliber over here..
Why? What the Eurozone is scared of is that they'll do an Iceland. Have a couple of bad years then start growing again. Then other countries in trouble will demand the same and Angela's Euro dream will come crashing down. Not before time either.
Usually national politicians accept. One of the reasons why I don't trust Cameron's (or anybody elses) renegotiation of powers plan. In this case it seems the Greeks are not going to play along. We're fast reaching the point where the eu is going to be forced into making a decision. They won't like that. Especially if it leads to Spain and Italy following the Greek route.
Of course they don't. Their Euro dream is dying. But at some point the Euro is going to fail. You don't have to be an economist to see that.
I think they are trying to create historical narrative showing that when this is all over, Syriza stood by it's promises in the face of the Eurozone and took the decision right to the wire regardless if they miscalculate. By provoking the Eurogroup and the IMF they are trying to force the natural course of events - The removal of their debt obligations to the Eurozone and the Troika, whether it be via political blackmail or by simply crashing the ship (i.e Greece) into the rocks and hoping for a new utopia post Eurozone.
My name is Geo, I am new here and I must admit I joined just to add my two cents as a simple citizen of a really tormented country (Greece). You probably all know the background of Greek politics with the same ol' families running the house for many decades, ruining this country. This new government is not just a childish protest on the people's part. Its a cry of agony from years of depression, disappointment and mockery. I honestly do not know if Tsipras and Varoufakis will make it, or even, if they do actually make a change here but the thing is we, the people, have nothing more to lose.
I ve seen in forums and sites that we are lazy and like to take other peoples money let me tell you this. I, a Greek, and I assure you this applies for the rest of the Greek people, have not seen a dime from that money and as for the lazy part, here's how things are for me
I work 48 hours a week (which is the average for all Greeks)
I get paid with the average amount for Greeks... 600 Euros per month (gross).
I am taxed at 26% of my income, in advance and I pay it to the last cent (as most simple people do here).
I pay rent which in average ranges from 350 Euros a month and rises, depending on the case.
I have a child and it is considered a "taxable asset"
If, hypothetically, I retire tomorrow the average pension I will receive is 400 euros per month.
Add to the above that the cost of life has not decreased proportionally to the wages, nor has the cost of medical expenses, which due to the current status, you need to pay for many services in healthcare.
How do we make ends meet? Well, nobody cares. They just see a GDP gap and banks lack of cash and inflation and numbers. Well we are not numbers and electing this new, inexperienced government with God knows what results is our way of telling so.
I really apologize for this long post, but it is really painful to read posts about the Greek people when the idea and information conveyed, do not always reflect reality. The people's reality, My reality.
Thank you for your patience in reading this.
Best regards,
Geo.
Democracy with some short term pain or tyranny under permanent never ending austerity.
Let's hope democracy wins - and the bankers lose!
PS thank you for the last post geosar. The Greek people are not lazy or wasteful or tax dodgers and I am sick of the snide comments too. UK personal debt per head is several times higher!
The banks won't lose. They never do. Somebody else will end up footing the bill. Probably us because we're good little europeans and we do as we're told. Or at least our politicians do.
Welcome!
I am afraid the anti-Greek vibe is quite common in the UK. Cameron, our PM, stated publicly he would protect the UK from any influx of Greeks to the UK should you lose the Euro. It was later pointed out to him that if Greece was to drop out the Euro, Greek citizens would still be allowed to travel to the UK without visas, so he kept quiet after that. He also stated Greece should be called the Former Ottoman Possession of Greece in response to Greece calling the Republic of Macedonia, FYROM. However he was not yet PM when he threw that insult at Greece.
Either way, here in the UK we admire Italians, like Spain and France and admire German efficiency. Greeks are not very respected sadly.
Personally I love Greece and have traveled there many times. I believe your new leaders are the most intelligent Greek ministers I have seen in my life - so although I am not leftist, I am deeply proud of the Greek people who elected such a cabinet. Here the UK, we mostly elect career politicians from wealthy families who all went to the same schools - I believe like your former political class at PASOK and Nea Demotakria.
Do the Greek people mind if Greece leaves the Euro? I know the polls say that Greeks want to stay, but what do Greeks on the street think about going back to the Drachma?
Also are many Greeks unable to pay their rents and are they being evicted?
a) If Greece is bankrupt why haven't their debts been forgiven or at least been reduced?
b) Why is the EU trying to force Greece to take out MORE and MORE huge loans for debts they cannot pay?
c) Since when did borrowing more money help anyone get out of debt?
d) Why should ordinary Greek people accept austerity when they received just 8% of the loans from the ECB and Banks/financial institutions received 92%?
e) Why are they called BAIL-OUTS when they are LOANS?
If I got a loan from WONGA I'd hardly call it a bloody bail out!
Hello and thank you very much,
I am aware that Greek people are not very popular right now... But it should be the politicians the ones hated not us, the common people. You are right about the past choices of the Greek people in terms of politics. Two major families exchanged terms for decades leading us steadily here. That's why when we saw something new we went for it. Hopefully for the best.
With regard to the infamous "Grexit" well, I believe and I think many people believe that (I am on the same boat with them) that the exit is not the answer. We shouldn't have entered Eurozone in the first place but now that we joined we must play along. If Greece returned to drachmas the whole system would collapse. It would be a highly undervalued currency that would not improve the situation for anyone. I think the answer is within the Eurozone but let me state this, which is something that the new government said to us, the people, right from the start. We are not trying to avoid repayment of our debt. We want to give the money back. But not by borrowing more money, which is what the "program" requires. It is not viable to borrow money to pay ones debts, and the newcomers have seen that. If not getting more money leads people to even harsher times for a short or long period so be it. We must stop borrowing or there will be no end. If this leads to a deeper recession, at least it will not increase the already huge debt. We need to heal, taking baby steps, making progress that is not counted in GDP numbers but in real-productive-everyday life.
Indeed people lose their homes here. Everyday is a survival battle for many people. There are people that can't afford healthcare and basic needs.
You know, we have been quiet and obedient for too long to the instructions of the people in charge, but when you keep taking from someone there comes a point when he/she has nothing more to be taken. That's a recipe for desperate acts and decisive action.
We want to stay in the Eurozone, and repay our debts under more human terms through a viable program. If this cannot be done and Eurozone opts to evict us, so be it. We have given as much as we could (the people I mean, because the leadership and those who run the show always have their way...).
Best regards,
Geo
Super post Geo and super description of life in Greece.
I have one last question. I read that there are between 900.000 and 1.1 million illegal immigrants residing in Greece. I read they are mostly muslim and have no legal status and thus pay no tax. Are there any plans to deport them or make them official citizens? From what I can see, these recent illegals are 10% of the total population of Greece and it seems they are not helping Greece much... I understand Greece has exceptionally difficult borders to protect.
If Greece was a bank, its debts would have been forgiven the day it went bankrupt. Problem is, Greece is a country - banks can make money from countries in debt, so the Germans decided to use Greece like the machines use humans in the Matrix... as batteries
To help banks make more and more money. As long as Greece is flavour of the month, Italy and Portugal are shielded
Since never.
Because Greeks according to the EU are not worth as much as other Europeans.
Easier to sell to the general public that Greece is being 'saved' or ''bailed out'' ...out of EU kindness, rather the reality that it is being sucked dry by being forced to take out more loans...
Thank you for reading my post. You've confirmed what I though.
Well, my dear new friend this is a really hot topic. I'll try to provide you with all voices, at least those I have heard, including mine.
Greek people have always been hospitable and friendly and we, ourselves, opened our doors (borders) to them many years ago. These people contributed to growth and production, they are not just the "bad persons, stealing from taxes and sucking blood out of this country", most of them are tormented souls who fled their country because they were in need. It doesn't matter whether they are muslim, christian, or spaghetti monster followers, they are humans trying to survive. If given the chance most of them would get papers and work legally here. Personally, I am not on the "deport them" side, but there must be a viable plan for their integration and distribution so that they can live and prosper, as they deserve, as all people deserve.
The crisis, austerity, unemployment and all things that happened during the last years have made many people turn against them. (that's why there was a rise in the rates of Chrisi Avgi). But when thoroughly discussed with most Greeks (there are of course exceptions, as in all cases and in all countries), people know that deportation and punishment of these people may mitigate the problem but will not solve it.
I am not saying that all these people are all nice, good chaps looking for a way to survive, all trees have some rotten fruit. But, generalization is dangerous. Not all of them should be deported. There are people here that came to our country 2 decades ago and love this land as much as Greeks do. Their color, religion, or language is not important, they are humans and should be treated as such. In brief, what I believe and I think I am not alone, is that it is not right to uproot entire families, just for the sake of it. Organization, uniform distribution across the country and thorough planning may prove more productive. There must be some sort of evaluation of the status of these people before integrating them in our country, but this must be performed in good-faith, respecting human rights and not in an arbitrary manner.
Very interesting. Thanks for this.
We as a nation welcomed people from all the corners of the globe. They are all British now and it is amazing how they have integrated. I definitely think you should make all immigrants taxable citizens like we have.
The only groups that perhaps see themselves as British ''second'' according to polls are many of our muslim citizens. For quite a few of them, Allah, Islamic education and Islamic food etc is a key factor to them living here. However this is the same story all over Europe, not just in the UK. I think when Greece starts building new mosques and muslim schools on the scale we have in the UK, you will perhaps see how many see themselves as Greek first... and how many of them see themselves as muslims first, Greek second. But this is all way in the future for Greece...
No need to apologise.
It's refreshing to hear from somebody who experiences life in Greece on a day-to-day basis, rather than the mindless regurgitation that typically infests the Politics forum.
It seems that Greece is on a slippery slope
Looks like the naughty child will have to do what it's told and forget the election result
I wouldn't bet in that. Greece is in no mood to capitulate to Germany. They're up sugar street either way so what have they got to lose?