I think, with a lot of things that deal with dark stuff etc, they can have a tendency to go a bit OTT. I remember watching this movie about a mum whose son was a psycho, and it was just absolutely, unrelentingly grim+dark, and you couldn't enjoy it, there was no lightness or humour about it. But because this is just a one off, you could a bit more swept up by it, and it pretty affecting.
I actually don't think it was that dark to be honest. I can understand the sentiment but I think because Joyce died of natural causes - and death I think is quite a familiar concept even if we don't necessarily understand it - it was much more visceral and distressing. I suppose because Buffy as a show has also dealt with death before (though admittedly in a vastly different way to this) it didn't feel that thematically out of place as, say, had this been an episode of Winnie the Pooh.
I actually don't think it was that dark to be honest. I can understand the sentiment but I think because Joyce died of natural causes - and death I think is quite a familiar concept even if we don't necessarily understand it - it was much more visceral and distressing. I suppose because Buffy as a show has also dealt with death before (though admittedly in a vastly different way to this) it didn't feel that thematically out of place as, say, had this been an episode of Winnie the Pooh.
Haha, that made me laugh... "Tigger, Tigger!"
Aww, actually, that's a terrible image. Imagine how sad they'd all be. Especially Eeyore. he has a hard time when everybody's alive and well...
But yeah, like I say, I'm not really sure I made myself all that clear in my post. I didn't really mean "dark" dark, like we've had on Angel, just nasty and brutal and, yeah, visceral's a good word. It's an uncomfortable episode, but like I say, brilliant to. One of the best of the season
I really like the camerawork at the beginning; stuff like the shot of the phone's keypad and Buffy's POV of the paramedic, even the lingering shot of the kitchen towel over Buffy's vomit has a strange beauty(?) to it (don't think beauty is the right word, but I can't think of another right now!). I also like hearing the wind chimes as Buffy's wandering around the house; they just add to the atmosphere. The little touch of Buffy pulling Joyce's skirt down just before the paramedics got to her was really sweet too The Body isn't an episode that gets me properly weepy like, say, Becoming Pt2 does, it just leaves me with this sort of heavy feeling. It's not one I tend to re-watch a lot, it's too emotionally draining, but the way it's played out is phenomenal.
Ooh, found this forum a few days ago - nice to see someone's first reactions to Buffy/Angel - Buffy's been part of my life since before I can remember so I've never really had the experience you're having. (This goes to the extent that my mum would record the episodes on video so we could watch them) Angel, however, I watched for the first time about a year ago - though not in the order you're doing it. I do separate binge watches because it's a pain to change discs after every episode.
Everyone remember's Anya's speech, but SMG is just amazing in 'The Body'. The whole opening sequence is a display of great acting from her.
Whenever it's on SyFy, they cut a huge chunk of that part, which is probably the daftest cut they've ever made.
I'd say there's some pretty daft cuts in Once More With Feeling too - they're songs so it's pretty hard to miss too! It's also funny what they don't cut - i.e. bitch is cut but bugger isn't? That's kind of insane! (Then I saw that one of my favourite parts of Tabula Rasa was cut too and gave up)
The Body is an astounding episode, absolutely brilliant television, and an example of why a show like Buffy, against all the odds, lasted seven seasons. Fantasy wasn't the genre it is today on the TV - it was generally a lot more niche, a lot more low budget, and even on the odd occasion that something higher profile was commissioned it often lacked the depth that Buffy ever did. That depth is exploited intrinsically in character-driven episodes, and I'd say that this is the epitome of a character driven episode. The cruel irony is that whilst it's arguably one of the best episodes of the entire show, it's also one that leaves the viewer feeling drained and not wanting to ever see what they saw again.
Some things:
Life Goes On: A major point that the episode was apparently trying to make was the whole concept of 'life goes on'. It doesn't matter if your world has just come crashing down, there are still things that need to be thought about - like parking tickets, and school, and in Buffy's case the slaying. The show echoed that sentiment itself - whilst it took a few creative measures (i.e. the lack of score) to enhance the experience, it was still fundmentally Buffy the Vampire Slayer. It still had the opening credits, it still had vampires in it (in their purest, most menacing form - no Spike or Angel here!) and even a reference to Glory to keep it grounded and in context. Life doesn't just stop because somebody died, and that was a well realised theme throughout the episode.
No Escape from Death: Another point the episode liked to make was that you can't escape death. It's inevitable that you'll have to face it in life. The episode cleverly and cruelly tried to take us on that journey too, which is all too familiar for many. You try to lose yourself in 'what if' fantasies but then the reality comes crashing back, just like with the failed attempt to revive Joyce. The scene in Buffy's house was particularly masterful - you know it's sunny outside, there's the sound of birds and children playing and life going on as usual. In every shot we are denied the right to look out - the camera always focuses on the shellshocked Buffy. Even in her 'what if' fantasy which involves a brief look at an ambulance outside, we're pressed up uncomfortably close to the siren lights and not allowed a glimpse at life around us - it's all consuming death again. By the time you reach telling Dawn, we're watching it happen behind glass... that trapped, boxed in feeling is all very real. You try to break out of your box and all you end up with is a bloody fist like Xander's. It just becomes more and more oppresive until all that's in that box with you is death - and we find ourselves in a room with Dawn, a dead Joyce and a vampire. It's all very real and harrowing, and the episode explores it...well, beautifully.
Relationships with Joyce: Joss Whedon made a point that he didn't particularly like the way the opening post-credits scene was done. He'd included the dessert scene so that the credited names wouldn't appear over the top of the images of Joyce's death itself, which was a great idea. His quarrel with it was that the scene should have had Joyce permanently in the room with everybody else - to make a point of the fact she was important to them all in at least some small way. I like the criticism he makes, though the strength of his characters convey it effectively across the rest of the episode anyway.
Emotions: Rather than making it a big sob-fest like they could have done, The Body remains true to life and makes death about the absence of emotion. By its end you're not so much an emotional wreck as you are simply emotionally drained. We don't see characters in floods of tears, the closest we get is with Dawn, who being the youngest and therefore having a less clear concept of death has a tearful collapse in school.
Anya's 'Why'?: Some people have said Anya's little moment in the dorm room was a little overdone, but again I think that's the point. The less of an understanding of death you have, the more emotional you become when contemplating it. It does seem to be an age thing - you have Giles at one end of the spectrum who after swallowing the shock of the corpse is immediately there for Buffy and remains very composed. You also have Tara who having dealt with death before plays a role of support. Then at the other end of the spectrum you have the youngest and most naive - Dawn sheds the most tears of all, reflecting her emotional response rather than her emotionally drained response. Similarly Anya keeps talking and talking and talking, and is emotional rather than emotionally drained. Her childlike 'why' at the end of her brilliant soliloquy puts her on the same page as Dawn - they're the two that are emotional, because they perceive death differently to everyone else. Without spoilers, I'll just say this is explored further with Dawn a little later as well.
The Best of Friends: So this is basically all my random thoughts on a stunning episode - and stunning without flashy effects, shock twists or anything like that. It's stunning because Whedon has crafted such fantastic characters, and the best actors and actresses to play them were cast. You buy into these friendships without even thinking about it - Xander offers to keep the slaying duties going, and you don't even register that that'd get him killed in a week, nor do you doubt the sincerity of his offer. These are friends that would die for each other having been through so much. The Body puts them through death itself, and perhaps gives them a wake up call to their own mortality - showing that death is a steep price to pay, but only for the living.
I'd say there's some pretty daft cuts in Once More With Feeling too - they're songs so it's pretty hard to miss too! It's also funny what they don't cut - i.e. bitch is cut but bugger isn't? That's kind of insane! (Then I saw that one of my favourite parts of Tabula Rasa was cut too and gave up)
Hello. It's always nice to see new people reacting to me reacting to Buffy and Angel.
And, as an aside, I imagine 'Out for a walk... bitch.' was cut on the SyFy airings?
Also, I didn't quote your post Abomination because I think you analysed it perfectly and there wasn't much else I could add but am I right in thinking this episode has the most subtext and depth? I can't really think of an episode that you could read into more so than this...
SyFy is terrible for hacking stuff to bits. I remember when I caught Graduation Day Pt2 on there and they cut:
Buffy: Hey! You remember this? I took it from Faith. Stuck it in her gut. Just slid in her like she was butter. You want to get it back from me, Dick?"
They also cut the Angel/Mayor face-off at the hospital.
After that, I ditched watching Buffy on SyFy, even if it was just to kill time.
I also wonder if he we'll ever get an explanation for why Angel was released from Acathla's Hell Dimension? It's almost been three seasons now....
Do you want me to tell you? It's not really a spoiler, it's just, um, you'll be waiting for a long time...
(And legitimate question to those of you who have - is The Body still as emotionally taxing the second time round and so forth? I can think of valid reasons why it would and it wouldn't be.)
Yep. Still upsetting.
- Although I did like that flashback to Christmas Dinner, I really hope the episode isn't composed of similar sequences. It almost feels like cheating and avoiding the drama.
It was actually to avoid the opening credits running over such an emotional scene.
- So that's where the title of the episode comes from. I don't know what else I was expecting really. It just feels so blunt and direct.
I think it's also because that's basically all Joyce is now, a body. There was once life in this person, memories, love but all it is now is a shell...
- Additionally, I'm only what, a couple of minutes in, but already this episode feels so god awful and harrowing. It's also somewhat surreal to see Buffy racing around the house and calling 911. It almost feels like she doesn't belong to a certain extent.
I loved it! Reminded me of Helpless when she's screaming as the vampires attack.T he Body is a humbling experience for Buffy because with all her gifts she can't save her mother from something as simple as a brain aneurysm. We've seen people we care about killed before but that is by supernatural forces. This is more upsetting because it's something that could actually happen in real life. Sometimes the biggest enemy Buffy has to face is life itself
He didn't lose his soul because he didn't experience true happiness. Sex with Darla was an act of despair.
I concur with RebelScum.
Sex with Darla was never about Angel finding true happiness. She wanted him to experience it to turn him into Angelus, but he simply doesn't feel that way about her and it was, in the end, despair and probably anger. That's why he didn't turn into Angelus.
I really loved the whole arc with Darla. The separation from his friends; the fact that he actually allows Darla and Dru to kill so many of the lawyers (that was an act of anger as well, but also it was very bad. They might be scum-sucking lawyers, but him just leaving them there and not caring about his actions made me shudder. He's started off on a very dark path then, which only ends when he and Darla has sex and he has a revelation - that he has been led down this path by not only Darla (who has been 'haunting' him during the night) but also by his own selfish actions and his own anger.
The revelation is also really that he needs good people around him in order to keep him 'human', in order to keep him on the right road. And those people are his friends, people who care about him, the ones he abandoned when he decided to go off 'on his own'. Plus he's sent away the one person who can help lead him to redemption - Cordy, who has the visions to enable him and them to help people. Idiot that he is.
Sex with Darla was never about Angel finding true happiness. She wanted him to experience it to turn him into Angelus, but he simply doesn't feel that way about her and it was, in the end, despair and probably anger. That's why he didn't turn into Angelus.
I really loved the whole arc with Darla. The separation from his friends; the fact that he actually allows Darla and Dru to kill so many of the lawyers (that was an act of anger as well, but also it was very bad. They might be scum-sucking lawyers, but him just leaving them there and not caring about his actions made me shudder. He's started off on a very dark path then, which only ends when he and Darla has sex and he has a revelation - that he has been led down this path by not only Darla (who has been 'haunting' him during the night) but also by his own selfish actions and his own anger.
The revelation is also really that he needs good people around him in order to keep him 'human', in order to keep him on the right road. And those people are his friends, people who care about him, the ones he abandoned when he decided to go off 'on his own'. Plus he's sent away the one person who can help lead him to redemption - Cordy, who has the visions to enable him and them to help people. Idiot that he is.
Just as well he sees sense!
imo 'happiness' for Angel changes over the course of time. Once upon a time Buffy would have been all he needed but now with everything he's gained and lost? I don't think even her love would cut it which is why sleeping with Darla - a person he never even loved - coupled with the fact that it was coming from a place of despair would never work.
I loved this storyline because there was always this sort of myth that Angel = good, Angelus = bad but what this season demonstrated is that Angel essentially is a human in a demon's body therefore he can make mistakes too. Having a soul doesn't automatically make him a saint although he has to be held to a higher standard because he needs to keep his power in check.
and this is something that continues to be explored through various flashbacks in future seasons.
Also, I can totally see why he 'lost his shit' with Darla. I think he thought that if he could redeem the woman who made him a monster then somehow he can most certainly redeem himself so when he failed it made him lose hope.
Generally, I don't like Angel as a character. I used to love him up until season 5 where he basically exposed his true nature: a guy who is
I figured that sex with Darla was an act of despair for Angel in my thoughts for Reprise. I was slightly confused however by the opening scenes of the next episode on as it seemed to suggest - in my mind at least - there was more of a method to his madness than I'd been led to believe. I know he mentioned how he was trying to save Darla but I just assumed that was more of a calculated albeit impulsive decision on his part which is why I said at the time I thought it was clever, like he figured he could make Darla lose her soul or something like that thereby giving him a reason to carry on the fight?
And you don't have to tell me about the reason for Angel's return Naa_KwaKai. I was just worried they'd maybe forgotten about it...
Disharmony
- I wonder what character could be in this episode, hmm?
- 'Atonement's a bitch.' That's the tagline for the whole show right there.
- WILLOW! I'm so glad she's going to be in this episode. Yes!
- 'But, just so we understand each other - you and I? - We're not friends.'
- I like how that now Wesley's become the leader of the group Angel has been forced to take his place. This includes of course tripping up wherever he steps all the while trying his best to save face.
- There was some really great wordplay in the conversations between Cordy and Harm but I think my favourite has to be when she was telling Cordelia about how good the hair looked off of her neck.
- The whole mistaking somebody for Gay stitch has been done so many times before (FYI there's a really funny episode of 'Seinfeld' called The Outing that deals with it) but nevertheless I laughed so hard at its inclusion here.
- Additionally, although it was nice to see Willow pop up, I am somewhat disappointed that a scene over the phone is effectively all her presence amounted to. I also laughed once more when she had to explain to Cordelia that she was Gay.
- L O L at Angel trying to gain favour with Cordy. It's nice that this episode is quite light-hearted especially after coming off a brutal one like The Body.
- 'What are you doing!?! This book is twelve centuries old!' 'Okay. So it's not like I messed up a new one.'
- 'It's pig's blood.' 'Ugh, well, that's gonna go straight to my hips.'
- It was also interesting to see Angel tempted somewhat by the presence of human blood (I know that was played as more of a joke but still.) They touched upon that briefly in The Shroud of Rahmon when Angel was forced to drink from Kate and I'm surprised they didn't do more with the concept back when he was in his 'darker' state.
- I like Doug. He's a brilliant vampire.
- 'Come on, Harm.' 'Such a fitting nickname. Oh, bloody hell.'
- I wonder if Harmony will end up being the Buffy regular that joins in Season 5, or maybe she'll stick around until then? I don't particularly find her the most endearing character but she certainly adds a different dynamic to the group. It's also nice that Cordelia has a female friend.
- I'm also curious if Angel managing to light up the 'red duck' so it fits the one seen in Cordelia's vision is a way of telling us that he manages to complete the Angel Investigations/bigger picture and fill in the gap?
- 'Imagine what could have happened if you'd gone nuts and slept with Darla.' 'You know I would never do that...' In spite of how funny this episode is I like the dramatic moments as well even if they are few and far in between. Angel and Cordelia's conversation outside the car was a particular highlight.
- It doesn't surprise me that Harmony betrayed the group although I am quite taken aback that Cordelia decided to let her go. I know Cordy's not exactly a killer but I'm not quite sure where else there is to go with Harmony's character. Minor nitpick but I'm surprised Angel and Cordy both consider LA *their* city just because I don't know anyone who actually talks like that in real life.
- The ending scene was BRILLIANT. The best scene of the episode for me bar none.
- To conclude, that was a pretty good episode and it made me laugh quite a bit. I wasn't enthralled by the plot all that much but as I mentioned a little way above it made quite a nice break after The Body.
Generally, I don't like Angel as a character. I used to love him up until season 5 where he basically exposed his true nature: a guy who is
far too easily corrupted
and therefore unpredictable and hypocritical.
I'd really be weary of judging any of the characters based on season 5. There was far too much focus on Spike in an attempt to please Spike fans, so characterisation did suffer elsewhere. Heck, the whole tone of the show changed. Having said that, the whole point of the season was about the temptation of being corrupted by the things we once stood against, and having to do things we thought we would never do when we were younger and more ideologically naive. No doubt we will discuss it further when we get there. I get what the season was doing, personally I don't think they handled it very, but please don't take it out in the characters...it's not their fault!
The more I watch Buffy the more I want someone like Tara in my life. I just wish in S4 we had a little more of her and they could have done more with or after Family. Would have been interesting if she was something more than human.
I'm really undecided on my favourite character in Buffy and Angel. I like most of them for various reasons but I've narrowed it down to Tara, Anya, Lorne and Fred. The good thing about both shows is how many interesting characters you have that it's impossible to have a firm favourite. One day it could be this character but then you watch an episode and you change your mind. I think I only couldn't like 3 characters overall.
Hello. It's always nice to see new people reacting to me reacting to Buffy and Angel.
And, as an aside, I imagine 'Out for a walk... bitch.' was cut on the SyFy airings?
Also, I didn't quote your post Abomination because I think you analysed it perfectly and there wasn't much else I could add but am I right in thinking this episode has the most subtext and depth? I can't really think of an episode that you could read into more so than this...
I'd really be weary of judging any of the characters based on season 5. There was far too much focus on Spike in an attempt to please Spike fans, so characterisation did suffer elsewhere.
And whats wrong with that prey? ;-)
I don't think any of the story arcs suffered at all, and after all they were having to
Incorparate a new character in to the cast.
Great observations by the way. It's great that both shows can still strike up such interest online.
I'd really be weary of judging any of the characters based on season 5. There was far too much focus on Spike in an attempt to please Spike fans, so characterisation did suffer elsewhere.
And whats wrong with that prey? ;-)
I don't think any of the story arcs suffered at all, and after all they were having to
Incorparate a new character in to the cast.
Great observations by the way. It's great that both shows can still strike up such interest online.
Probably best we wait until we get there rather than overloading the thread with spoiler tags at this point.
The Body is amazing but awful all at the same time. When I posted which bits of Buffy I could pass by, I left this out as the OP hadn't reached or seen it yet. But The Body is the one, and only episode I have to actually force myself to watch if I'm doing a season 5 rewatch, and would never watch it just cos I randomly fancied watching an episode of Buffy. For me it is almost unwatchable, not because its bad in any way but because its so raw and brings back painful memories of loss, I think they did almost too good a job on the realism of it! As someone else has said, how ironic that one of the very best episodes of the entire show, is the one someone is least likely to watch again.
I'd really be weary of judging any of the characters based on season 5. There was far too much focus on Spike in an attempt to please Spike fans, so characterisation did suffer elsewhere. Heck, the whole tone of the show changed. Having said that, the whole point of the season was about the temptation of being corrupted by the things we once stood against, and having to do things we thought we would never do when we were younger and more ideologically naive. No doubt we will discuss it further when we get there. I get what the season was doing, personally I don't think they handled it very, but please don't take it out in the characters...it's not their fault!
No, sorry, the Spike excuse is played out. If anything, Spike got sidelined like Gunn which only made his presence even more useless. I get what the season was about but it's interesting that Gunn and Angel have always been the most easily corrupted and they both did things in this season that were unforgivable i.e.Gunn sacrificing Fred, Angel murdering that guy at the end and ordering Lorne to murder Lindsay conveniently AFTER he lost his Shanshu. Then in the comics Angel continues to do more unforgivable things.
Honestly, if I didn't know better I would say Whedon was deliberately trying to butcher him.
Needles to say, as tempting as it is to counter your points at this time, I'd rather wait and not discuss season 5 further until we get there. If you feel that strongly about it feel free to start another thread.
Maybe it was an intervention from the Powers that Be, much like how I assume they let Angel into Kate's apartment without him being invited in? I forgot to mention that fact this morning when I wrote my review and, whilst I like the idea and nothing against those who believe in divine intervention, in a television show I want a proper explanation for everything.
I quite liked that, thought it was quite a neat idea and sorta shows that maybe not everyone/thing is hopeless after all
He didn't lose his soul because he didn't experience true happiness. Sex with Darla was an act of despair.
Yeah, I got that, the bit I'm not sure about was when Angelus temporarily emerged in season 1, where he met that actress and was drugged to be happy so he'd turn her into a vampire.... I was saying, it never really made sense why it was temporary (surely when your souls gone, it's gone, unless you have a handy bit of magic from Willow or gypsies...), and that, for me, whenever the topic of Angel losing his soul has come up on "Angel," as in that ep and Epiphany, they never actually go with it, and it's always resolved quite quickly, which can be a bit disappointing. Not saying I just want Angel to be evil all the time, obviously, it's just that it is a bit frustrating for the show twice now to bring up the idea that this terrible thing has happened, and then just drop it immediately... I do hope that, if they do something like this again then, that they deal with it properly, and have him properly gone for a bit...
- The ending scene was BRILLIANT. The best scene of the episode for me bar none.
- To conclude, that was a pretty good episode and it made me laugh quite a bit. I wasn't enthralled by the plot all that much but as I mentioned a little way above it made quite a nice break after The Body.
Yeah, not much to add, this was just a really fun ep, and again, I'm really enjoying having everyone back after all that angstyness. Was laughing all the way through, especially at that end scene...
Yeah, I got that, the bit I'm not sure about was when Angelus temporarily emerged in season 1, where he met that actress and was drugged to be happy so he'd turn her into a vampire.... I was saying, it never really made sense why it was temporary (surely when your souls gone, it's gone, unless you have a handy bit of magic from Willow or gypsies...), and that, for me, whenever the topic of Angel losing his soul has come up on "Angel," as in that ep and Epiphany, they never actually go with it, and it's always resolved quite quickly, which can be a bit disappointing. Not saying I just want Angel to be evil all the time, obviously, it's just that it is a bit frustrating for the show twice now to bring up the idea that this terrible thing has happened, and then just drop it immediately... I do hope that, if they do something like this again then, that they deal with it properly, and have him properly gone for a bit...
Yeah the reason behind "Angelus" in Eternity was never entirely convincing. The ending of Reprise was a huge tease that's for sure, served with a big dollop dramatic licence, mirroring the ending of Surprise. You have no idea how tempted I was (and maybe others were too) to mention not getting your hopes up so high about Angelus, but I guess that could have been deemed a spoiler. On my first watch I think I was also a little disappointed initially that we'd been teased, but as the episode went on I was very happy with how it played out, and considering the message behind the episode, I'm glad they didn't chose that moment to bring him back. As for the future, no spoilers, but...yep.
That and half a dozen other cuts. I pity anyone who's watching Buffy for the first time and using this channel to do so as so much has been binned.
Exempting What's My Line Part 2 and Ted which I watched on Netflix before my laptop broke, I still need to go back and watch the uncut versions of Seasons 1 and 2 because I watched those ones on the SyFy channel. I also need to watch the uncut versions of Anne and Dead Man's Party as well but I think I'll wait until after I've seen the Season 7 finale or until I (hopefully) get the complete series box set at some point. I know they definitely cut out Jenny's funeral - or at any rate a scene by her graveside - at the end of Passion because it showed up in the recap for Killed by Death so it should be interesting to go back and see what I've missed. I guess one of the few positives about watching it syndicated though is that you get to view it in pretty HD?
Forever
- I've been wondering ever since I wrote my review for The Body about what's going to happen to Buffy and Dawn. I can see Buffy continuing to live on her own but I have a feeling perhaps that Dawn will go and live with Giles in the advent that Buffy is unable to cope. It also occurred to me - as they picked out a coffin for her - we're going to get a will for Joyce at some point.
- Angel. Yes! But who is Doc? I don't know why but the first thought that came to mind is that he'd be the badly manufactured Buffy-Bot.
- They're really trying to make Buffy's Dad a bastard aren't they?
- On the other hand though, there is something strangely sweet about Spike's respect and admiration for Joyce.
- I'm surprised they didn't concentrate more on the funeral and (lack of a) wake but I suppose it's not entirely necessary really. Last episode was extremely sad and a key part of death is coming to terms with and moving past it. (In retrospect though, I guess it's another way of conveying that Buffy hasn't allowed herself the time to grieve?)
- I was just thinking how awful it would be if Joyce was turned into a vampire and Buffy and Dawn had to fight their own mother. Now it looks like we're going to go down a similar avenue. I also agree with Tara that it'd be bad to bring back Joyce for reasons neither myself nor the episode can really articulate. It would be violating the 'unwritten' rule of life and death or something like that... (nervous laugh.)
- That was quite a nice scene between Angel and Buffy under the tree. Side note but it's so obvious looking back on the ongoing arc in 'Angel' at the moment the story wouldn't peak in him becoming Angelus. Since he's still on pretty good terms with Buffy, of course he was going to come back for the funeral of her mother.
- Dumb thought but I was wondering a few episodes ago why Glory didn't kill Ben for beating up Dregg and her other Jawa rejects. I'm also interested as to why Ben was chosen as the prison for Glory. I expect we'll get an explanation at some point? Also, what does Glory actually want? I know she'd like to open Hell I presume but what for and why? She doesn't necessarily strike me as the sort of person who would relish the end of the world since she leaves quite a pampered lifestyle. That is unless she and The Beast just want to rule the Earth?
- Oh, and the unfortunate connotations of Anya really liking sex and really liking money are only just occurring to me now.
- This is also something I forgot to mention last time around but Anya's unexpected hug of Giles in the hospital was so sweet as well. Even though death can rip people apart, I also think it does quite a good job of bringing them closer together.
- Initially I was really angry about Spike helping out Dawn (just because she should not be attempting to try and bring back her dead mother) but to be honest I don't think he did a bad thing at all. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think this is the first episode where Spike could be actively considered one of the good guys. Of course he's helped out the Scoobies in earlier instalments but this is the first time where it seemed to me like he didn't have some sort of ulterior motive.
- Ignoring your existing foreknowledge for a minute, is anyone else really looking forward to Glory having on a full on meltdown?
- Since there's talk of Joyce coming back a pretty different person than she was before I wonder if Dawn's DNA will make things worse? Like - exempting the sentimental message of Blood Ties for a minute - does she genuinely have the same blood as the rest of her family? Since she is actually Key energy in disguise they could end up bringing back something incredibly strong. Well stronger than that in fact 'cause we all know Summers women are incredibly tough. ;-) To be perfectly honest though, I don't think Joyce will come back at all.
- Even though there's only 5 episodes left I have a feeling that Doc will turn out to be one of the main antagonists of this particular arc. The reason I think this is because he seemed to have a rather obvious interest in Dawn; I wonder if he knows who she actually is, not just the Key but the other thing too? Perhaps he'll be the one who delivers her to Glory at some point?
- In a less good episode I would have groaned at the Ghora but I think this one is pretty good so far and so the Ghora doesn't bother me all that much. It also feels pedantic to complain about it when the main attraction was Spike. With an axe.
- Much as I like their relationship as a couple, I feel like it would be interesting to get some friction between Tara and Willow. I thought that would happen in this episode for sure. I wonder if Tara will find out how she aided Dawn?
- Those were some really strong performances from Sarah Michelle Gellar and Michelle Trachtenberg in that scene at the end. I still rate The Body as their strongest individual episode in terms of acting but their argument about Joyce is now up there too. Minor nitpick though - I can understand why Joyce would disappear when the photo was ripped but what happened to the body in the coffin? Has that disappeared from this world altogether? Oh, and the image of a shadowy Joyce moving along the wall reminded me so much of Alfred Hitchcock's Psycho you have no idea.
- To conclude, that was a pretty interesting episode and it felt like a natural progression of The Body I think. Aside from what I've mentioned already, I like that Dawn didn't rat out Spike in the end. I have a feeling though that any positive character strides he made in this episode will be undermined when the Scoobies find out about the Buffy-Bot unless he asked for the thing to be built because he was lonely? Either way - tsk!
Comments
I actually don't think it was that dark to be honest. I can understand the sentiment but I think because Joyce died of natural causes - and death I think is quite a familiar concept even if we don't necessarily understand it - it was much more visceral and distressing. I suppose because Buffy as a show has also dealt with death before (though admittedly in a vastly different way to this) it didn't feel that thematically out of place as, say, had this been an episode of Winnie the Pooh.
Haha, that made me laugh... "Tigger, Tigger!"
Aww, actually, that's a terrible image. Imagine how sad they'd all be. Especially Eeyore. he has a hard time when everybody's alive and well...
But yeah, like I say, I'm not really sure I made myself all that clear in my post. I didn't really mean "dark" dark, like we've had on Angel, just nasty and brutal and, yeah, visceral's a good word. It's an uncomfortable episode, but like I say, brilliant to. One of the best of the season
Whenever it's on SyFy, they cut a huge chunk of that part, which is probably the daftest cut they've ever made.
Wha-? Isn't it all one long continuous scene so how on earth did they manage that?!
I'd say there's some pretty daft cuts in Once More With Feeling too - they're songs so it's pretty hard to miss too! It's also funny what they don't cut - i.e. bitch is cut but bugger isn't? That's kind of insane! (Then I saw that one of my favourite parts of Tabula Rasa was cut too and gave up)
Some things:
Life Goes On: A major point that the episode was apparently trying to make was the whole concept of 'life goes on'. It doesn't matter if your world has just come crashing down, there are still things that need to be thought about - like parking tickets, and school, and in Buffy's case the slaying. The show echoed that sentiment itself - whilst it took a few creative measures (i.e. the lack of score) to enhance the experience, it was still fundmentally Buffy the Vampire Slayer. It still had the opening credits, it still had vampires in it (in their purest, most menacing form - no Spike or Angel here!) and even a reference to Glory to keep it grounded and in context. Life doesn't just stop because somebody died, and that was a well realised theme throughout the episode.
No Escape from Death: Another point the episode liked to make was that you can't escape death. It's inevitable that you'll have to face it in life. The episode cleverly and cruelly tried to take us on that journey too, which is all too familiar for many. You try to lose yourself in 'what if' fantasies but then the reality comes crashing back, just like with the failed attempt to revive Joyce. The scene in Buffy's house was particularly masterful - you know it's sunny outside, there's the sound of birds and children playing and life going on as usual. In every shot we are denied the right to look out - the camera always focuses on the shellshocked Buffy. Even in her 'what if' fantasy which involves a brief look at an ambulance outside, we're pressed up uncomfortably close to the siren lights and not allowed a glimpse at life around us - it's all consuming death again. By the time you reach telling Dawn, we're watching it happen behind glass... that trapped, boxed in feeling is all very real. You try to break out of your box and all you end up with is a bloody fist like Xander's. It just becomes more and more oppresive until all that's in that box with you is death - and we find ourselves in a room with Dawn, a dead Joyce and a vampire. It's all very real and harrowing, and the episode explores it...well, beautifully.
Relationships with Joyce: Joss Whedon made a point that he didn't particularly like the way the opening post-credits scene was done. He'd included the dessert scene so that the credited names wouldn't appear over the top of the images of Joyce's death itself, which was a great idea. His quarrel with it was that the scene should have had Joyce permanently in the room with everybody else - to make a point of the fact she was important to them all in at least some small way. I like the criticism he makes, though the strength of his characters convey it effectively across the rest of the episode anyway.
Emotions: Rather than making it a big sob-fest like they could have done, The Body remains true to life and makes death about the absence of emotion. By its end you're not so much an emotional wreck as you are simply emotionally drained. We don't see characters in floods of tears, the closest we get is with Dawn, who being the youngest and therefore having a less clear concept of death has a tearful collapse in school.
Anya's 'Why'?: Some people have said Anya's little moment in the dorm room was a little overdone, but again I think that's the point. The less of an understanding of death you have, the more emotional you become when contemplating it. It does seem to be an age thing - you have Giles at one end of the spectrum who after swallowing the shock of the corpse is immediately there for Buffy and remains very composed. You also have Tara who having dealt with death before plays a role of support. Then at the other end of the spectrum you have the youngest and most naive - Dawn sheds the most tears of all, reflecting her emotional response rather than her emotionally drained response. Similarly Anya keeps talking and talking and talking, and is emotional rather than emotionally drained. Her childlike 'why' at the end of her brilliant soliloquy puts her on the same page as Dawn - they're the two that are emotional, because they perceive death differently to everyone else. Without spoilers, I'll just say this is explored further with Dawn a little later as well.
The Best of Friends: So this is basically all my random thoughts on a stunning episode - and stunning without flashy effects, shock twists or anything like that. It's stunning because Whedon has crafted such fantastic characters, and the best actors and actresses to play them were cast. You buy into these friendships without even thinking about it - Xander offers to keep the slaying duties going, and you don't even register that that'd get him killed in a week, nor do you doubt the sincerity of his offer. These are friends that would die for each other having been through so much. The Body puts them through death itself, and perhaps gives them a wake up call to their own mortality - showing that death is a steep price to pay, but only for the living.
Hello. It's always nice to see new people reacting to me reacting to Buffy and Angel.
And, as an aside, I imagine 'Out for a walk... bitch.' was cut on the SyFy airings?
Also, I didn't quote your post Abomination because I think you analysed it perfectly and there wasn't much else I could add but am I right in thinking this episode has the most subtext and depth? I can't really think of an episode that you could read into more so than this...
They also cut the Angel/Mayor face-off at the hospital.
After that, I ditched watching Buffy on SyFy, even if it was just to kill time.
Do you want me to tell you? It's not really a spoiler, it's just, um, you'll be waiting for a long time...
Yep. Still upsetting.
It was actually to avoid the opening credits running over such an emotional scene.
I think it's also because that's basically all Joyce is now, a body. There was once life in this person, memories, love but all it is now is a shell...
I loved it! Reminded me of Helpless when she's screaming as the vampires attack.T he Body is a humbling experience for Buffy because with all her gifts she can't save her mother from something as simple as a brain aneurysm. We've seen people we care about killed before but that is by supernatural forces. This is more upsetting because it's something that could actually happen in real life. Sometimes the biggest enemy Buffy has to face is life itself
I concur with RebelScum.
Sex with Darla was never about Angel finding true happiness. She wanted him to experience it to turn him into Angelus, but he simply doesn't feel that way about her and it was, in the end, despair and probably anger. That's why he didn't turn into Angelus.
I really loved the whole arc with Darla. The separation from his friends; the fact that he actually allows Darla and Dru to kill so many of the lawyers (that was an act of anger as well, but also it was very bad. They might be scum-sucking lawyers, but him just leaving them there and not caring about his actions made me shudder. He's started off on a very dark path then, which only ends when he and Darla has sex and he has a revelation - that he has been led down this path by not only Darla (who has been 'haunting' him during the night) but also by his own selfish actions and his own anger.
The revelation is also really that he needs good people around him in order to keep him 'human', in order to keep him on the right road. And those people are his friends, people who care about him, the ones he abandoned when he decided to go off 'on his own'. Plus he's sent away the one person who can help lead him to redemption - Cordy, who has the visions to enable him and them to help people. Idiot that he is.
Just as well he sees sense!
imo 'happiness' for Angel changes over the course of time. Once upon a time Buffy would have been all he needed but now with everything he's gained and lost? I don't think even her love would cut it which is why sleeping with Darla - a person he never even loved - coupled with the fact that it was coming from a place of despair would never work.
I loved this storyline because there was always this sort of myth that Angel = good, Angelus = bad but what this season demonstrated is that Angel essentially is a human in a demon's body therefore he can make mistakes too. Having a soul doesn't automatically make him a saint although he has to be held to a higher standard because he needs to keep his power in check.
Also, I can totally see why he 'lost his shit' with Darla. I think he thought that if he could redeem the woman who made him a monster then somehow he can most certainly redeem himself so when he failed it made him lose hope.
Generally, I don't like Angel as a character. I used to love him up until season 5 where he basically exposed his true nature: a guy who is
And you don't have to tell me about the reason for Angel's return Naa_KwaKai. I was just worried they'd maybe forgotten about it...
Disharmony
- I wonder what character could be in this episode, hmm?
- 'Atonement's a bitch.' That's the tagline for the whole show right there.
- WILLOW! I'm so glad she's going to be in this episode. Yes!
- 'But, just so we understand each other - you and I? - We're not friends.'
- I like how that now Wesley's become the leader of the group Angel has been forced to take his place. This includes of course tripping up wherever he steps all the while trying his best to save face.
- There was some really great wordplay in the conversations between Cordy and Harm but I think my favourite has to be when she was telling Cordelia about how good the hair looked off of her neck.
- The whole mistaking somebody for Gay stitch has been done so many times before (FYI there's a really funny episode of 'Seinfeld' called The Outing that deals with it) but nevertheless I laughed so hard at its inclusion here.
- Additionally, although it was nice to see Willow pop up, I am somewhat disappointed that a scene over the phone is effectively all her presence amounted to. I also laughed once more when she had to explain to Cordelia that she was Gay.
- L O L at Angel trying to gain favour with Cordy. It's nice that this episode is quite light-hearted especially after coming off a brutal one like The Body.
- 'What are you doing!?! This book is twelve centuries old!' 'Okay. So it's not like I messed up a new one.'
- 'It's pig's blood.' 'Ugh, well, that's gonna go straight to my hips.'
- It was also interesting to see Angel tempted somewhat by the presence of human blood (I know that was played as more of a joke but still.) They touched upon that briefly in The Shroud of Rahmon when Angel was forced to drink from Kate and I'm surprised they didn't do more with the concept back when he was in his 'darker' state.
- I like Doug. He's a brilliant vampire.
- 'Come on, Harm.' 'Such a fitting nickname. Oh, bloody hell.'
- I wonder if Harmony will end up being the Buffy regular that joins in Season 5, or maybe she'll stick around until then? I don't particularly find her the most endearing character but she certainly adds a different dynamic to the group. It's also nice that Cordelia has a female friend.
- I'm also curious if Angel managing to light up the 'red duck' so it fits the one seen in Cordelia's vision is a way of telling us that he manages to complete the Angel Investigations/bigger picture and fill in the gap?
- 'Imagine what could have happened if you'd gone nuts and slept with Darla.' 'You know I would never do that...' In spite of how funny this episode is I like the dramatic moments as well even if they are few and far in between. Angel and Cordelia's conversation outside the car was a particular highlight.
- It doesn't surprise me that Harmony betrayed the group although I am quite taken aback that Cordelia decided to let her go. I know Cordy's not exactly a killer but I'm not quite sure where else there is to go with Harmony's character. Minor nitpick but I'm surprised Angel and Cordy both consider LA *their* city just because I don't know anyone who actually talks like that in real life.
- The ending scene was BRILLIANT. The best scene of the episode for me bar none.
- To conclude, that was a pretty good episode and it made me laugh quite a bit. I wasn't enthralled by the plot all that much but as I mentioned a little way above it made quite a nice break after The Body.
I'm really undecided on my favourite character in Buffy and Angel. I like most of them for various reasons but I've narrowed it down to Tara, Anya, Lorne and Fred. The good thing about both shows is how many interesting characters you have that it's impossible to have a firm favourite. One day it could be this character but then you watch an episode and you change your mind. I think I only couldn't like 3 characters overall.
It was reduced to "Out for a walk "
And whats wrong with that prey? ;-)
I don't think any of the story arcs suffered at all, and after all they were having to
Great observations by the way. It's great that both shows can still strike up such interest online.
Probably best we wait until we get there rather than overloading the thread with spoiler tags at this point.
Needles to say, as tempting as it is to counter your points at this time, I'd rather wait and not discuss season 5 further until we get there. If you feel that strongly about it feel free to start another thread.
That and half a dozen other cuts. I pity anyone who's watching Buffy for the first time and using this channel to do so as so much has been binned.
I quite liked that, thought it was quite a neat idea and sorta shows that maybe not everyone/thing is hopeless after all
Yeah, I got that, the bit I'm not sure about was when Angelus temporarily emerged in season 1, where he met that actress and was drugged to be happy so he'd turn her into a vampire.... I was saying, it never really made sense why it was temporary (surely when your souls gone, it's gone, unless you have a handy bit of magic from Willow or gypsies...), and that, for me, whenever the topic of Angel losing his soul has come up on "Angel," as in that ep and Epiphany, they never actually go with it, and it's always resolved quite quickly, which can be a bit disappointing. Not saying I just want Angel to be evil all the time, obviously, it's just that it is a bit frustrating for the show twice now to bring up the idea that this terrible thing has happened, and then just drop it immediately... I do hope that, if they do something like this again then, that they deal with it properly, and have him properly gone for a bit...
Yeah, not much to add, this was just a really fun ep, and again, I'm really enjoying having everyone back after all that angstyness. Was laughing all the way through, especially at that end scene...
"NEW CLOTHES!"
Yeah the reason behind "Angelus" in Eternity was never entirely convincing. The ending of Reprise was a huge tease that's for sure, served with a big dollop dramatic licence, mirroring the ending of Surprise. You have no idea how tempted I was (and maybe others were too) to mention not getting your hopes up so high about Angelus, but I guess that could have been deemed a spoiler. On my first watch I think I was also a little disappointed initially that we'd been teased, but as the episode went on I was very happy with how it played out, and considering the message behind the episode, I'm glad they didn't chose that moment to bring him back. As for the future, no spoilers, but...yep.
I figured as much, thanks.
Exempting What's My Line Part 2 and Ted which I watched on Netflix before my laptop broke, I still need to go back and watch the uncut versions of Seasons 1 and 2 because I watched those ones on the SyFy channel. I also need to watch the uncut versions of Anne and Dead Man's Party as well but I think I'll wait until after I've seen the Season 7 finale or until I (hopefully) get the complete series box set at some point. I know they definitely cut out Jenny's funeral - or at any rate a scene by her graveside - at the end of Passion because it showed up in the recap for Killed by Death so it should be interesting to go back and see what I've missed. I guess one of the few positives about watching it syndicated though is that you get to view it in pretty HD?
Forever
- I've been wondering ever since I wrote my review for The Body about what's going to happen to Buffy and Dawn. I can see Buffy continuing to live on her own but I have a feeling perhaps that Dawn will go and live with Giles in the advent that Buffy is unable to cope. It also occurred to me - as they picked out a coffin for her - we're going to get a will for Joyce at some point.
- Angel. Yes! But who is Doc? I don't know why but the first thought that came to mind is that he'd be the badly manufactured Buffy-Bot.
- They're really trying to make Buffy's Dad a bastard aren't they?
- On the other hand though, there is something strangely sweet about Spike's respect and admiration for Joyce.
- I'm surprised they didn't concentrate more on the funeral and (lack of a) wake but I suppose it's not entirely necessary really. Last episode was extremely sad and a key part of death is coming to terms with and moving past it. (In retrospect though, I guess it's another way of conveying that Buffy hasn't allowed herself the time to grieve?)
- I was just thinking how awful it would be if Joyce was turned into a vampire and Buffy and Dawn had to fight their own mother. Now it looks like we're going to go down a similar avenue. I also agree with Tara that it'd be bad to bring back Joyce for reasons neither myself nor the episode can really articulate. It would be violating the 'unwritten' rule of life and death or something like that... (nervous laugh.)
- That was quite a nice scene between Angel and Buffy under the tree. Side note but it's so obvious looking back on the ongoing arc in 'Angel' at the moment the story wouldn't peak in him becoming Angelus. Since he's still on pretty good terms with Buffy, of course he was going to come back for the funeral of her mother.
- Dumb thought but I was wondering a few episodes ago why Glory didn't kill Ben for beating up Dregg and her other Jawa rejects. I'm also interested as to why Ben was chosen as the prison for Glory. I expect we'll get an explanation at some point? Also, what does Glory actually want? I know she'd like to open Hell I presume but what for and why? She doesn't necessarily strike me as the sort of person who would relish the end of the world since she leaves quite a pampered lifestyle. That is unless she and The Beast just want to rule the Earth?
- Oh, and the unfortunate connotations of Anya really liking sex and really liking money are only just occurring to me now.
- This is also something I forgot to mention last time around but Anya's unexpected hug of Giles in the hospital was so sweet as well. Even though death can rip people apart, I also think it does quite a good job of bringing them closer together.
- Initially I was really angry about Spike helping out Dawn (just because she should not be attempting to try and bring back her dead mother) but to be honest I don't think he did a bad thing at all. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think this is the first episode where Spike could be actively considered one of the good guys. Of course he's helped out the Scoobies in earlier instalments but this is the first time where it seemed to me like he didn't have some sort of ulterior motive.
- Ignoring your existing foreknowledge for a minute, is anyone else really looking forward to Glory having on a full on meltdown?
- Since there's talk of Joyce coming back a pretty different person than she was before I wonder if Dawn's DNA will make things worse? Like - exempting the sentimental message of Blood Ties for a minute - does she genuinely have the same blood as the rest of her family? Since she is actually Key energy in disguise they could end up bringing back something incredibly strong. Well stronger than that in fact 'cause we all know Summers women are incredibly tough. ;-) To be perfectly honest though, I don't think Joyce will come back at all.
- Even though there's only 5 episodes left I have a feeling that Doc will turn out to be one of the main antagonists of this particular arc. The reason I think this is because he seemed to have a rather obvious interest in Dawn; I wonder if he knows who she actually is, not just the Key but the other thing too? Perhaps he'll be the one who delivers her to Glory at some point?
- In a less good episode I would have groaned at the Ghora but I think this one is pretty good so far and so the Ghora doesn't bother me all that much. It also feels pedantic to complain about it when the main attraction was Spike. With an axe.
- Much as I like their relationship as a couple, I feel like it would be interesting to get some friction between Tara and Willow. I thought that would happen in this episode for sure. I wonder if Tara will find out how she aided Dawn?
- Those were some really strong performances from Sarah Michelle Gellar and Michelle Trachtenberg in that scene at the end. I still rate The Body as their strongest individual episode in terms of acting but their argument about Joyce is now up there too. Minor nitpick though - I can understand why Joyce would disappear when the photo was ripped but what happened to the body in the coffin? Has that disappeared from this world altogether? Oh, and the image of a shadowy Joyce moving along the wall reminded me so much of Alfred Hitchcock's Psycho you have no idea.
- To conclude, that was a pretty interesting episode and it felt like a natural progression of The Body I think. Aside from what I've mentioned already, I like that Dawn didn't rat out Spike in the end. I have a feeling though that any positive character strides he made in this episode will be undermined when the Scoobies find out about the Buffy-Bot unless he asked for the thing to be built because he was lonely? Either way - tsk!