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225 Long Wave - Scotland

Hot HitsHot Hits Posts: 596
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I wonder if Scotland did go independent whether they would try to use 225KHz Long Wave. ??? Ofcom didn't want to but I bet they would try to use it. Not sure what power it is authorised for but am sure it would be heard over much of the UK.

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    MikeBrMikeBr Posts: 7,907
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    Hot Hits wrote: »
    I wonder if Scotland did go independent whether they would try to use 225KHz Long Wave. ??? Ofcom didn't want to but I bet they would try to use it. Not sure what power it is authorised for but am sure it would be heard over much of the UK.

    It was allocated on the last day of the 1978 frequency conference, Westerglen 50kw is what has been quoted as what the BBC intended to use it for. BBC decided to put Westerglen on 198 instead as it didn't cause many problems with Droitwich on same channel. Problem is Poland has an allocation on there 2000kw, due to the antenna collapsing now listed as 1000kw but don't know if they run that, audible here and I would have thought stronger than here in parts of Scotland.

    BBC passed the allocation to the Radio Authority who advertised it, several groups expressed interest but the Radio Authority then decided that it was too interference limited, IIRC they were talking of moving the allocation elsewhere with fill in transmitters on MW/LW.

    Isle of Man I think tried to get hold of it before they settled on 279.

    Found an article on when it was advertised for INR4:
    http://www.marketingweek.co.uk/old-technology-interferes-with-governments-vision-for-future/2013190.article

    They hadn't agreed clearance, have an idea they were going to do 50kw from Droitwich plus fillers?
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    lundavralundavra Posts: 31,790
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    Hot Hits wrote: »
    I wonder if Scotland did go independent whether they would try to use 225KHz Long Wave. ??? Ofcom didn't want to but I bet they would try to use it. Not sure what power it is authorised for but am sure it would be heard over much of the UK.

    I doubt it, there might be Long Wave transmitters at Westerglen and Burghead but they will the same problem as Droitwich i.e. high running costs and elderly equipment. Any new broadcasting organisations is going to have enough problems and a tight budget so would expect them to want to save those costs.

    The areas of Scotland with the high population have good coverage on VHF FM and DAB, the Highlands and Islands are poorly served by Long Wave .
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    VectorsumVectorsum Posts: 876
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    From page 318 of 'Scotland's Future':
    The SBS will start broadcasting when the current BBC charter comes to an end on 31 December 2016. On TV, the SBS will begin with a new TV channel and take on the responsibility for BBC Alba. On radio, the SBS will begin with a new radio station in addition to taking on responsibility for Radio Scotland and Radio nan Gàidheal....
    225 kHz would seem to be a possible delivery choice for this but a couple of pages earlier it states:
    This Government’s immediate priority for broadcasting on independence will be to develop a broadcasting policy for Scotland based on three principles:
    ● there should be an increase in production opportunities for Scottish producers, and an increase in productions that reflect life in Scotland and of Scots
    ●Scottish viewers and listeners should continue to have access to all their current channels
    ●there should be no additional cost to viewers and listeners as a consequence of independence
    which presumably would include Radio 4 being on 198 kHz from Westerglen and therefore the TX is tied up for that service? So if 225 kHz did go ahead, they'd need an alternative mast.
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    BMRBMR Posts: 4,351
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    I think LW would be a very poor choice. Most new radios no longer have this waveband- sure some still do, but they are falling in number.

    If they are hell bent on LW, given that we are talking 2016 for independance and it's likely to be 2018 before SBS gets going---well 198 might be free by then anyway!!
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    lundavralundavra Posts: 31,790
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    Vectorsum wrote: »
    From page 318 of 'Scotland's Future':225 kHz would seem to be a possible delivery choice for this but a couple of pages earlier it states:which presumably would include Radio 4 being on 198 kHz from Westerglen and therefore the TX is tied up for that service? So if 225 kHz did go ahead, they'd need an alternative mast.

    Probably nothing to do with Long Wave. There are the four national VHF FM networks which I presume we will unfortunately lose as well as the various ones on DAB unless they do some deal to pay for some of them. The new radio could just be a second Radio Scotland channel using one of these networks
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    MusicmasterproxMusicmasterprox Posts: 959
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    If Scotland did become Independant and that SBS Radio went on the air, would they use the 107 FM output that was previously occupied by Talk 107 (covering the central belt)?

    How would they go about getting a non-commercial license from ofcom/Scotcom?
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    dpbdpb Posts: 12,031
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    If Scotland did become Independant and that SBS Radio went on the air, would they use the 107 FM output that was previously occupied by Talk 107 (covering the central belt)?

    How would they go about getting a non-commercial license from ofcom/Scotcom?

    The Scottish Parliament would no doubt have a Broadcasting Act which would create any Scottish public service broadcaster and pave the way for an additional network.

    107 is an obvious free frequency to serve Edinburgh and its surrounds - depending on what community radio is allocated in the area.

    How they will find a frequency on FM in the Glasgow area will be interesting.
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    PemblechookPemblechook Posts: 2,702
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    When Droitwich shut down twice (never did find out why) for several hours the Scottish TXs were pretty weak in N Wales.
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    BMRBMR Posts: 4,351
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    When Droitwich shut down twice (never did find out why) for several hours the Scottish TXs were pretty weak in N Wales.

    To be fair they are only supposed to serve Scotland!
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    InkblotInkblot Posts: 26,889
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    I realise this is a fairly silly question, but if Scotland were to become independent, would it no longer be entitled to any frequencies allocated to the UK in the past?
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    Hybrid telliesHybrid tellies Posts: 1,580
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    By 2018 most of the broadcasting effort will be on DAB anyway so I presume SBS would use a separate SCN DAB network alongside the existing ones. I am sure AM won't get a look in as these networks are just being left to die and to some extent the same is happening with FM. I suppose they could take over BBC Radio Scotlands AM and FM network if they wanted to.
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    PemblechookPemblechook Posts: 2,702
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    I know they are only supposed to serve Scotland. I thought someone said they would be well received in England.
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    BorsantBorsant Posts: 1,148
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    Here comes the Long Wave Giants Causeway :)
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    VectorsumVectorsum Posts: 876
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    Borsant wrote: »
    Here comes the Long Wave Giants Causeway :)
    ...which is in Northern Ireland, not Scotland. Conversely (and confusingly) Fingal's Cave which most folk think is in Ireland is actually on Staffa, in the Inner Hebrides of Scotland.
    By 2018 most of the broadcasting effort will be on DAB anyway so I presume SBS would use a separate SCN DAB network alongside the existing ones. I am sure AM won't get a look in as these networks are just being left to die and to some extent the same is happening with FM. I suppose they could take over BBC Radio Scotlands AM and FM network if they wanted to.
    Almost certainly they would go DAB/+. For the telly service, they might even skip a terrestrial segment and go straight to satellite. Up where I live in the isles, everyone has had Sky or Freesat for years, and terrestrial DSO came and went without anyone noticing.

    All that being said, I'm guessing that the OP's real interest in asking relates to the prestige and extra aura of nationhood conferred by having a voice that can be heard abroad. This is the real function that 198 LW serves in the UK context, its essential service long since having passed to the FM network (unless you're a cricket fan).
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    anthony davidanthony david Posts: 14,528
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    The experience of Atlantic 252 is that long wave is is a non starter as most radios don't have long wave.
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    HertzHertz Posts: 3,221
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    The experience of Atlantic 252 is that long wave is is a non starter as most radios don't have long wave.

    It wasn't the fact that Atlantic 252 was on long wave that killed the station.

    In it's heyday it was very popular and had more listeners than Virgin Radio at the time, if I remember correctly

    What led to the demise of Atlantic 252 was changing the format to dance and R & B.
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    BMRBMR Posts: 4,351
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    Hmm I don't know. I think what killed it was Radio one sacking the older DJs and targetting younger listeners.

    Even so AIUI Atlantic was turning a small profit right to the end so maybe switch off was premature.
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    omnidirectionalomnidirectional Posts: 18,838
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    Hertz wrote: »
    It wasn't the fact that Atlantic 252 was on long wave that killed the station.

    In it's heyday it was very popular and had more listeners than Virgin Radio at the time, if I remember correctly

    What led to the demise of Atlantic 252 was changing the format to dance and R & B.

    I think the rock/alternative era of the late 90s was the beginning of the end, with RAJAR figures at a record low in Q4 1999. It then relaunched and gained some listeners back under the mainstream dance/R&B format.
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    Mark CMark C Posts: 20,955
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    Hertz wrote: »
    It wasn't the fact that Atlantic 252 was on long wave that killed the station.

    In it's heyday it was very popular and had more listeners than Virgin Radio at the time, if I remember correctly

    What led to the demise of Atlantic 252 was changing the format to dance and R & B.

    That's my memory too. I recall a holiday in NW Scotland, it was
    the only station available with any consistent quality on the car radio, better than R4 198 kHz, so that's what we listened to for a fortnight.
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    capital Gcapital G Posts: 5
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    Atlantic 252 should have got a slot on DAB, it was an amazing radio station that did extremely well considering it's 'poor' LW reception (still better than 1215's reception though).
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    BrightonelectriBrightonelectri Posts: 181
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    The BBC spends considerable sums on BBC ALBA TV and
    Radio Highland FM, which broadcast in Scots Gallic.
    In the UK as a whole there are ten times more Polish speakers than Scots Gallic speakers!
    I doubt if an independent Scotland could afford to continue these channels are their present level.
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    lundavralundavra Posts: 31,790
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    The BBC spends considerable sums on BBC ALBA TV and
    Radio Highland FM, which broadcast in Scots Gallic.
    In the UK as a whole there are ten times more Polish speakers than Scots Gallic speakers!
    I doubt if an independent Scotland could afford to continue these channels are their present level.

    It's BBC Radio nan Gaidheal, BBC Radio Highland was the name of the Radio Scotland opt-out from Inverness. Not sure if the name is still used by the BBC though used colloquially for the Inverness opt-out. It was an English language service with a few Gaelic programmes prior to the start of Radio nan Gaidheal.

    I can believe the figure for Polish speakers. I have lived in the Highlands for many years but have never heard anyone speaking Gaelic in the street here but I will hear several people speaking East European languages everytime I am in town.
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    HertzHertz Posts: 3,221
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    capital G wrote: »
    Atlantic 252 should have got a slot on DAB, it was an amazing radio station that did extremely well considering it's 'poor' LW reception (still better than 1215's reception though).

    As a classic rock station.

    I don't know whose idea it was to change the format to dance/R & B, but I stopped listening after that.

    The original concept of the station was to target older listeners.
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    hanssolohanssolo Posts: 22,745
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    I think the rock/alternative era of the late 90s was the beginning of the end, with RAJAR figures at a record low in Q4 1999. It then relaunched and gained some listeners back under the mainstream dance/R&B format.
    According to the wiki 252 had 4m listeners, dropped to 1m with listeners moving to ILR, R1 or R2, then picked up with dance, Digitalone had started in 1999 and it's licence stated a stereo dance format station, it's not clear if D1 and RTE/RTL had any talks, but RTE/RTE pulled the music format for sport on LW, then closed 252.

    D1 got the stereo DAB dance slot moved to easy listening with Primetime (now effectively replaced by Smooth?).
    In 2007 RTL tried classic rock again on DRM SW and internet to the UK as R Luxemburg, but it never took off, then a young person format on NGW D2 DAB, but NGW lost it's bid.
    The RTL group has given up on DRM and DAB, concentrating on FM in Germany and France, but tested DAB+ in Belgium.

    Doubt if LW will be used in future as it is expensive and prone to household interference, but notice D1 can split frequencies for different programmes in Scotland if it wants.
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    Craig KellyCraig Kelly Posts: 2,662
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    dpb wrote: »
    107 is an obvious free frequency to serve Edinburgh and its surrounds - depending on what community radio is allocated in the area..

    107.0 MHz FM has been allocated to Kirkcaldy, Fife community station K107 which started test transmissions on 107 FM a few weeks ago.
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