The OP didnt write the post and hasnt credited a source. Be better if people offered up their own opinions. If they did write it they have undergone a radical change of posting style of at the very least id suggest sections are borrowed.
Also I would sugget that Man Utd fans have been discussing our "issues" quite happily and respectfully on various threads on here for quite some time now. Have you yourself not spoken to a number of us on these very matters? Based on that are you saying we are all pretending everything is fine???
We cant win. We talk about the problems we have and we are "spoilt and ungrateful" and reminded that "we have no devine right to win", yet if someone posts batsh*t crazy nonsense we are being disrespectful for noticing.
i was talking about this thread, whether OP stole it or not its an interesting piece, not sure why it got the backlash?
ive never labelled anyone spoilt or talked about devine rights so dont lump me in with others please.
i have thought for many years that teams come to OT and roll over and die without giving it a good go, thats not disrespectful, its a compliment to the aura that OP mentioned.
i had a hunch that would stop once fergie left and so far looks like i am right. will you get it back? maybe,but never to the extent fergie had it imo.
i dunno why we cant just discuss these things straight off the bat.
Let me explain, last season (and the 20 seasons before that) opponents, especially those at the bottom of the league, were beaten before they kicked a ball. They knew the Manchester United team of Alex Ferguson would beat them - so why play? Their team had an "Aura", and I will call this the "Aura Effect".
It all collapsed from this moment on. There's this myth that every 'smaller' team were beaten before they'd even kicked a ball. It's nonsense. Certainly more so in recent seasons. Teams were daring to come to OT for the last couple of seasons and do exactly what they have so far this season.
It's got nothing to do with Alex Ferguson, David Moyes or United as a club losing any type of aura. The standard has improved, despite some people trying to claim it's gone downhill. Quite a few of the so called 'smaller' sides actually play some great football and have proper systems set in place for good attacking football and good pressing of the ball.
There's no big secret behind what has happened so far. None of this 'aura' stuff. As a team Manchester United haven't played anywhere near the standard that they can. It's about as simple as that really.
Yes, it's more or less what happened to Liverpool in the 90s because Souness wasn't part of the bootroom.
You can even have little 'auras'. I think Everton had it in the 80s with Kendall. I remember a game at Maine Road in 87, Paul Power got the winner ironically, Man City fans just didn't believe they could win and that could well have extended to the players.
Yet that 86-87 season was so weird for Everton, mainstays like Peter Reid out for long periods, people like Bobby Mimms, Neil Pointon, Paul Wilkinson, Kevin Langley making 10-15 appearances, and you'd never equate any of those names with a title winning side... yet the title was won because the players clearly believed in Howard, that he could always find a way to win, and opponents almost 'expected' the team to be strong, whoever was in it.
87 onwards, we had most of the 85 side supplemented by big name signings like Nevin, Whiteside and Cottee, but maybe because Colin Harvey didn't have the credibility - which I think is Moyes' problem at Man U - he couldn't keep us at that level. The players all speak highly of him, but maybe secretly, they didn't believe in him as much. Graeme Sharp, for instance, thinks Harvey is a wonderful fellah, and didn't seem to think much of Kendall as a person, but he got the most success under Kendall.
It made me think that at the top level, maybe a lot does depend on a manager's personality and how he is perceived by both his own players and opponents. Ironically, maybe Moyes is too nice, even though he's portrayed as a tough guy... he surely can't be as intimidating as Ferguson.
It all collapsed from this moment on. There's this myth that every 'smaller' team were beaten before they'd even kicked a ball. It's nonsense. Certainly more so in recent seasons. Teams were daring to come to OT for the last couple of seasons and do exactly what they have so far this season.
It's got nothing to do with Alex Ferguson, David Moyes or United as a club losing any type of aura. The standard has improved, despite some people trying to claim it's gone downhill. Quite a few of the so called 'smaller' sides actually play some great football and have proper systems set in place for good attacking football and good pressing of the ball.
There's no big secret behind what has happened so far. None of this 'aura' stuff. As a team Manchester United haven't played anywhere near the standard that they can. It's about as simple as that really.
you told me at start of season to stop getting "excited" when i said utd would struggle and predicted 3rd place.
you said it would be business as usual, even now you refuse to see any problems in the MU thread.
i don't post the above to say i told you so,just to show you that nothing is as simple as you think it is.
there is a debate to be had here,whilst i wouldn't say utds successful era was all down to other teams not trying(that would be ridiculous) there is no doubt teams feared going to OT more than emirates or stamford bridge and thus lost the game mentally before they got there. once again this is a compliment to mufc.
i dunno why we cant just discuss these things straight off the bat.
Done nothing but discuss it with people on here since last May. As i say, if you dont toe the party line that the club is finished and we will be lucky to stay up there has to be some bloody issue made of it.
you told me at start of season to stop getting "excited" when i said utd would struggle and predicted 3rd place.
you said it would be business as usual, even now you refuse to see any problems in the MU thread.
i don't post the above to say i told you so,just to show you that nothing is as simple as you think it is.
there is a debate to be had here,whilst i wouldn't say utds successful era was all down to other teams not trying(that would be ridiculous) there is no doubt teams feared going to OT more than emirates or stamford bridge and thus lost the game mentally before they got there. once again this is a compliment to mufc.
Yes, you went into every thread possible and repeated about 100 times how United would struggle, you really don't need to remind me again.
I've made my feelings clear enough times, not sure they need repeating in every single thread though. You don't say "I told you so..." because there's nothing to say it about. We're eight or whatever games in, come and see me at the end of the season and tell me you told me so. For the record, go check my posts in the United thread...I've already said it's down to a combination of players not performing and Moyes getting it wrong in a couple of games. Forgive me for not having a mental breakdown eight games into the season under a new manager.
Done nothing but discuss it with people on here since last May. As i say, if you dont toe the party line that the club is finished and we will be lucky to stay up there has to be some bloody issue made of it.
clubs not finished,no way near that and you can of course disagree with the never get it back stuff.
but the point about teams coming to play at OT is a good one,and even then i am not asking you to agree,just debate
rather than "good grief" or who did you steal that from? etc
noone is attacking MUFC, just highlight reasons why its going through harder times than its used to.
I've maintained this for a while. Visiting European clubs got me alerted a few seasons ago and a few Premier League teams over recent seasons have gone to Old Trafford with a far more positive attitude than was typical before. It's taken Fergie's exit from the manager's seat to tempt more clubs to chance their arm.
Despite what others think. it's exactly what happened at Anfield in the early 1990s - suddenly teams showed up and weren't beaten before they'd kicked off. This, in turn, eroded the assurance and swagger Liverpool's players had and unnerved them. Away from home it was even worse - noone sat back and waited to see how Liverpool would play - they just started piling in. The change in management and a few new faces added to the insecurity and that was that.
Not sure it'll pan out that way for United ultimately but the warning signs are there.
Yes, you went into every thread possible and repeated about 100 times how United would struggle, you really don't need to remind me again.
I've made my feelings clear enough times, not sure they need repeating in every single thread though. You don't say "I told you so..." because there's nothing to say it about. We're eight or whatever games in, come and see me at the end of the season and tell me you told me so. For the record, go check my posts in the United thread...I've already said it's down to a combination of players not performing and Moyes getting it wrong in a couple of games. Forgive me for not having a mental breakdown eight games into the season under a new manager.
not asking for a break down am i? just saying treat those who disagree with you some respect. and i am talking about the OP in this case not me, i am sure you will respect me by the end of the season.
i just felt the OP was a good one and was dissapointed thread went haywire from the off, i wont mention it again now.
sloth-i 100% agree, we are just talking about warning signs,not calling time on a clubs success!
I've maintained this for a while. Visiting European clubs got me alerted a few seasons ago and a few Premier League teams over recent seasons have gone to Old Trafford with a far more positive attitude than was typical before. It's taken Fergie's exit from the manager's seat to tempt more clubs to chance their arm.
Despite what others think. it's exactly what happened at Anfield in the early 1990s - suddenly teams showed up and weren't beaten before they'd kicked off. This, in turn, eroded the assurance and swagger Liverpool's players had and unnerved them. Away from home it was even worse - noone sat back and waited to see how Liverpool would play - they just started piling in. The change in management and a few new faces added to the insecurity and that was that.
Not sure it'll pan out that way for United ultimately but the warning signs are there.
Thats the point for me though - people are talking as if its only happened since Fergie packed his bags. We've been beaten by all kinds of lower teams the past few seasons - its not a new phenomenon down to Moyes.
clubs not finished,no way near that and you can of course disagree with the never get it back stuff.
but the point about teams coming to play at OT is a good one,and even then i am not asking you to agree,just debate
rather than "good grief" or who did you steal that from? etc
noone is attacking MUFC, just highlight reasons why its going through harder times than its used to.
"Harder times"? Seriously? Its October.
There always has to be some issue that doesnt involve a team being set out poorly and not playing well just because its Man Utd. It makes NO sense at all. To suggest that we beat teams with an "aura" IS disrespectful. There may be one or two games a season where you get that traditional last minute goal or a team parks the bus but take a look at the league tables for the last 7 years. We won because we were the better team, time after time after time. It wasnt voodoo, bribing refs, Fergie time or anything else. Not the number of times we did it.
Just like now, we havent started badly because a team of proven winners have all downed tools and forgotten how to play or because the voodoo trick has worn off. Suddenly every past success is dismissed and the last 8 games has become the "reality" that we are now supposed to accept.
I have seriously never seen such apject nonsense spoken on a subject as i have from supposedly intelligent people on this subject. Moyes is either blameless or a rank amateur. No middle ground no reasoned thougth. We'd like to say its come as a surprise that reactions have been as they are but lets be honest it isnt at all. "Debate" comes very difficult on this one as ive discovered.
Thats the point for me though - people are talking as if its only happened since Fergie packed his bags. We've been beaten by all kinds of lower teams the past few seasons - its not a new phenomenon down to Moyes.
how often in the prem? it wasnt that prevelant in the league, maybe in a few cup competitions
look at game utd clinched title last year, werent villa still in relegation mix? they didnt attack for toffee, lost 4-0, utd played well but thats because they were allowed too from min 1 imo
spurs last year attacked and went 3 up by half time, then second half we saw fergies utd at their best, moyes utd havnt shown 10% of that sort of performance yet, thus why teams are getting some success at old trafford now aswell. which all helps shatter the aura that we keep coming back too.
its not a fact,just a theory. and if you wanna brand it nonsense cantona i am dissapointed by that.
not asking for a break down am i? just saying treat those who disagree with you some respect. and i am talking about the OP in this case not me, i am sure you will respect me by the end of the season.
i just felt the OP was a good one and was dissapointed thread went haywire from the off, i wont mention it again now.
sloth-i 100% agree, we are just talking about warning signs,not calling time on a clubs success!
I've just responded to the original post with a proper response, one you clearly don't like so are dismissing it.
Might as well move on as you're playing the old classic 'respect' card. I'm never going to bend over backwards to tell somebody "Oh, I completely disagree with that opinion but oh my god I so respect it!". I can discuss things all day long on here, nothing is ever personal because reality check, it's a forum and just a fu*king discussion about football. I steer clear of the childish stuff that consistently happens on here. Everybody is entitled to their opinion and it'd be a pretty awful place if we all had the same one, me disagreeing with said opinion doesn't mean I'm being disrespectful.
"United also have another bombshell waiting to disrupt their season, the Fergie biography that will be released today at 2pm. Whatever it contains, it will place the team (and certain star players) under ever more scrutiny.
Its just been confirmed that the club had cleared the prior to it going to full press and only asked that a fact about Ronaldo was changed. I think it'll ruffle a few feathers but nothing too major.
I've maintained this for a while. Visiting European clubs got me alerted a few seasons ago and a few Premier League teams over recent seasons have gone to Old Trafford with a far more positive attitude than was typical before. It's taken Fergie's exit from the manager's seat to tempt more clubs to chance their arm.
Despite what others think. it's exactly what happened at Anfield in the early 1990s - suddenly teams showed up and weren't beaten before they'd kicked off. This, in turn, eroded the assurance and swagger Liverpool's players had and unnerved them. Away from home it was even worse - noone sat back and waited to see how Liverpool would play - they just started piling in. The change in management and a few new faces added to the insecurity and that was that.
Not sure it'll pan out that way for United ultimately but the warning signs are there.
I believe that it happened to Chelsea when Jose left. he developed a personality that was so big, other clubs and managers were beaten before the first whistle. We have never regained this.
how often in the prem? it wasnt that prevelant in the league, maybe in a few cup competitions
look at game utd clinched title last year, werent villa still in relegation mix? they didnt attack for toffee, lost 4-0, utd played well but thats because they were allowed too from min 1 imo
spurs last year attacked and went 3 up by half time, then second half we saw fergies utd at their best, moyes utd havnt shown 10% of that sort of performance yet, thus why teams are getting some success at old trafford now aswell. which all helps shatter the aura that we keep coming back too.
its not a fact,just a theory. and if you wanna brand it nonsense cantona i am dissapointed by that.
Newcastle, Blackburn, Norwich, Wigan, West Brom putting 5 past us on the last game SAF was in charge.
I believe that it happened to Chelsea when Jose left. he developed a personality that was so big, other clubs and managers were beaten before the first whistle. We have never regained this.
So why did we bother to play the games? They should have said "look we have lost this game so can we go home"? It would have saved both clubs and fans some money
The only managers who failed at Chelsea was due to bad board decisons in appointing managers who was either not good enough (Grant,RDM) not suitable for the job (Phil,Rafa) or other reasons (AVB). Managers like Guss and Carlo did a very good job.
There are no auras or any other ghosts or smells of prevous managers or any other such rubbish. Its giving the right person the job and the tools needed to do their job. Is Moyes the right person? We will see that at the end of the season. If he finishes top 3 then yes he is, If they end up 4th then its 50/50 but if they finish lower then he is not. It dont matter if he has a aura or a halo or a ghost called Sir MAtt Busby giving him advice.
I believe that it happened to Chelsea when Jose left. he developed a personality that was so big, other clubs and managers were beaten before the first whistle. We have never regained this.
I think the trick with Jose was that he often could identify a player to bring in when they were at the peak of their careers. I think that's why when he moved on, the performance levels dropped.
I think that was part of the problem Rafa experienced when he took over at Milan.
I think the trick with Jose was that he often could identify a player to bring in when they were at the peak of their careers. I think that's why when he moved on, the performance levels dropped.
I think that was part of the problem Rafa experienced when he took over at Milan.
rafa took over at inter, and he wanted change that wasnt backed.
but he didnt cover himself in glory either, bit of a 60(board)/40(him) blame wise was that one.
also on another note i think alot of people see "aura" as excuses for easy wins,which is not the case or the point people are trying to make imo.
Let us just go back to the 19th June when the fixtures for the season were announced, these are off the ManU supporters thread on that day.......
zexstream
Forum Member
Moyes to be really tested!
Simon1984
Forum Member
We have a pretty tricky opening set of fixtures, Proper test for Moyes from the start.
zieler
Forum Member
That is not a nice start to the season. I'm sure the press will be sharpening their knives in anticipation.
codeblue
Forum Member
What a run for United and Moyes, all are very losable indeed!
homer2012
Forum Member
Tough 6 games opening but these are what we should expect. Come on Moyes make us proud
Flukie
Forum Member
At least hard games early on will be got out the way!
....and so on, and so on!
I am not in any way a ManU fan, but for pities sake don't think they have lost it yet - as a Liverpool fan I still don't trust them not to come bounding up the league. Two clubs (was the other AV?) had a tough start to the season, other teams will have their 'tough weeks' to contend with yet.
Comments
i was talking about this thread, whether OP stole it or not its an interesting piece, not sure why it got the backlash?
ive never labelled anyone spoilt or talked about devine rights so dont lump me in with others please.
i have thought for many years that teams come to OT and roll over and die without giving it a good go, thats not disrespectful, its a compliment to the aura that OP mentioned.
i had a hunch that would stop once fergie left and so far looks like i am right. will you get it back? maybe,but never to the extent fergie had it imo.
i dunno why we cant just discuss these things straight off the bat.
It all collapsed from this moment on. There's this myth that every 'smaller' team were beaten before they'd even kicked a ball. It's nonsense. Certainly more so in recent seasons. Teams were daring to come to OT for the last couple of seasons and do exactly what they have so far this season.
It's got nothing to do with Alex Ferguson, David Moyes or United as a club losing any type of aura. The standard has improved, despite some people trying to claim it's gone downhill. Quite a few of the so called 'smaller' sides actually play some great football and have proper systems set in place for good attacking football and good pressing of the ball.
There's no big secret behind what has happened so far. None of this 'aura' stuff. As a team Manchester United haven't played anywhere near the standard that they can. It's about as simple as that really.
You can even have little 'auras'. I think Everton had it in the 80s with Kendall. I remember a game at Maine Road in 87, Paul Power got the winner ironically, Man City fans just didn't believe they could win and that could well have extended to the players.
Yet that 86-87 season was so weird for Everton, mainstays like Peter Reid out for long periods, people like Bobby Mimms, Neil Pointon, Paul Wilkinson, Kevin Langley making 10-15 appearances, and you'd never equate any of those names with a title winning side... yet the title was won because the players clearly believed in Howard, that he could always find a way to win, and opponents almost 'expected' the team to be strong, whoever was in it.
87 onwards, we had most of the 85 side supplemented by big name signings like Nevin, Whiteside and Cottee, but maybe because Colin Harvey didn't have the credibility - which I think is Moyes' problem at Man U - he couldn't keep us at that level. The players all speak highly of him, but maybe secretly, they didn't believe in him as much. Graeme Sharp, for instance, thinks Harvey is a wonderful fellah, and didn't seem to think much of Kendall as a person, but he got the most success under Kendall.
It made me think that at the top level, maybe a lot does depend on a manager's personality and how he is perceived by both his own players and opponents. Ironically, maybe Moyes is too nice, even though he's portrayed as a tough guy... he surely can't be as intimidating as Ferguson.
you told me at start of season to stop getting "excited" when i said utd would struggle and predicted 3rd place.
you said it would be business as usual, even now you refuse to see any problems in the MU thread.
i don't post the above to say i told you so,just to show you that nothing is as simple as you think it is.
there is a debate to be had here,whilst i wouldn't say utds successful era was all down to other teams not trying(that would be ridiculous) there is no doubt teams feared going to OT more than emirates or stamford bridge and thus lost the game mentally before they got there. once again this is a compliment to mufc.
Done nothing but discuss it with people on here since last May. As i say, if you dont toe the party line that the club is finished and we will be lucky to stay up there has to be some bloody issue made of it.
Yes, you went into every thread possible and repeated about 100 times how United would struggle, you really don't need to remind me again.
I've made my feelings clear enough times, not sure they need repeating in every single thread though. You don't say "I told you so..." because there's nothing to say it about. We're eight or whatever games in, come and see me at the end of the season and tell me you told me so. For the record, go check my posts in the United thread...I've already said it's down to a combination of players not performing and Moyes getting it wrong in a couple of games. Forgive me for not having a mental breakdown eight games into the season under a new manager.
clubs not finished,no way near that and you can of course disagree with the never get it back stuff.
but the point about teams coming to play at OT is a good one,and even then i am not asking you to agree,just debate
rather than "good grief" or who did you steal that from? etc
noone is attacking MUFC, just highlight reasons why its going through harder times than its used to.
Despite what others think. it's exactly what happened at Anfield in the early 1990s - suddenly teams showed up and weren't beaten before they'd kicked off. This, in turn, eroded the assurance and swagger Liverpool's players had and unnerved them. Away from home it was even worse - noone sat back and waited to see how Liverpool would play - they just started piling in. The change in management and a few new faces added to the insecurity and that was that.
Not sure it'll pan out that way for United ultimately but the warning signs are there.
not asking for a break down am i? just saying treat those who disagree with you some respect. and i am talking about the OP in this case not me, i am sure you will respect me by the end of the season.
i just felt the OP was a good one and was dissapointed thread went haywire from the off, i wont mention it again now.
sloth-i 100% agree, we are just talking about warning signs,not calling time on a clubs success!
Thats the point for me though - people are talking as if its only happened since Fergie packed his bags. We've been beaten by all kinds of lower teams the past few seasons - its not a new phenomenon down to Moyes.
"Harder times"? Seriously? Its October.
There always has to be some issue that doesnt involve a team being set out poorly and not playing well just because its Man Utd. It makes NO sense at all. To suggest that we beat teams with an "aura" IS disrespectful. There may be one or two games a season where you get that traditional last minute goal or a team parks the bus but take a look at the league tables for the last 7 years. We won because we were the better team, time after time after time. It wasnt voodoo, bribing refs, Fergie time or anything else. Not the number of times we did it.
Just like now, we havent started badly because a team of proven winners have all downed tools and forgotten how to play or because the voodoo trick has worn off. Suddenly every past success is dismissed and the last 8 games has become the "reality" that we are now supposed to accept.
I have seriously never seen such apject nonsense spoken on a subject as i have from supposedly intelligent people on this subject. Moyes is either blameless or a rank amateur. No middle ground no reasoned thougth. We'd like to say its come as a surprise that reactions have been as they are but lets be honest it isnt at all. "Debate" comes very difficult on this one as ive discovered.
how often in the prem? it wasnt that prevelant in the league, maybe in a few cup competitions
look at game utd clinched title last year, werent villa still in relegation mix? they didnt attack for toffee, lost 4-0, utd played well but thats because they were allowed too from min 1 imo
spurs last year attacked and went 3 up by half time, then second half we saw fergies utd at their best, moyes utd havnt shown 10% of that sort of performance yet, thus why teams are getting some success at old trafford now aswell. which all helps shatter the aura that we keep coming back too.
its not a fact,just a theory. and if you wanna brand it nonsense cantona i am dissapointed by that.
I've just responded to the original post with a proper response, one you clearly don't like so are dismissing it.
Might as well move on as you're playing the old classic 'respect' card. I'm never going to bend over backwards to tell somebody "Oh, I completely disagree with that opinion but oh my god I so respect it!". I can discuss things all day long on here, nothing is ever personal because reality check, it's a forum and just a fu*king discussion about football. I steer clear of the childish stuff that consistently happens on here. Everybody is entitled to their opinion and it'd be a pretty awful place if we all had the same one, me disagreeing with said opinion doesn't mean I'm being disrespectful.
Its just been confirmed that the club had cleared the prior to it going to full press and only asked that a fact about Ronaldo was changed. I think it'll ruffle a few feathers but nothing too major.
I believe that it happened to Chelsea when Jose left. he developed a personality that was so big, other clubs and managers were beaten before the first whistle. We have never regained this.
Newcastle, Blackburn, Norwich, Wigan, West Brom putting 5 past us on the last game SAF was in charge.
True.
Plus Southampton last season played us off the park at OT, moreso than at any point on Saturday.
So why did we bother to play the games? They should have said "look we have lost this game so can we go home"? It would have saved both clubs and fans some money
The only managers who failed at Chelsea was due to bad board decisons in appointing managers who was either not good enough (Grant,RDM) not suitable for the job (Phil,Rafa) or other reasons (AVB). Managers like Guss and Carlo did a very good job.
There are no auras or any other ghosts or smells of prevous managers or any other such rubbish. Its giving the right person the job and the tools needed to do their job. Is Moyes the right person? We will see that at the end of the season. If he finishes top 3 then yes he is, If they end up 4th then its 50/50 but if they finish lower then he is not. It dont matter if he has a aura or a halo or a ghost called Sir MAtt Busby giving him advice.
I think the trick with Jose was that he often could identify a player to bring in when they were at the peak of their careers. I think that's why when he moved on, the performance levels dropped.
I think that was part of the problem Rafa experienced when he took over at Milan.
Like a Grimsby docks ready brek glow......
rafa took over at inter, and he wanted change that wasnt backed.
but he didnt cover himself in glory either, bit of a 60(board)/40(him) blame wise was that one.
also on another note i think alot of people see "aura" as excuses for easy wins,which is not the case or the point people are trying to make imo.
zexstream
Forum Member
Moyes to be really tested!
Simon1984
Forum Member
We have a pretty tricky opening set of fixtures, Proper test for Moyes from the start.
zieler
Forum Member
That is not a nice start to the season. I'm sure the press will be sharpening their knives in anticipation.
codeblue
Forum Member
What a run for United and Moyes, all are very losable indeed!
homer2012
Forum Member
Tough 6 games opening but these are what we should expect. Come on Moyes make us proud
Flukie
Forum Member
At least hard games early on will be got out the way!
....and so on, and so on!
I am not in any way a ManU fan, but for pities sake don't think they have lost it yet - as a Liverpool fan I still don't trust them not to come bounding up the league. Two clubs (was the other AV?) had a tough start to the season, other teams will have their 'tough weeks' to contend with yet.
its not writing off to wonder if they have lost the fear factor they usually command.