If you want the best out of your vinyl, a Nitty Gritty comes in handy. As for cartridges, go for elongated elliptical, such as an Ortofon MC30 Supreme or Rohmann, or whatever the equivalent is these days.
Twenty years ago, what we used to call ‘off-board phono stages’ were an expensive and comparatively rare product. Anoraks would probably argue that it was the Linn Linnk that begat the breed in the mid-eighties, but it wasn’t until the Michell ISO at the end of that decade that the genre really took off. Now though, they’re everywhere – in all shapes and sizes, and prices range from less than a tankful of petrol to more than many will ever pay for a car. But what to make of this all?
Some 15 years ago I met this old boy, a vinyl fanatic and he had this system where the output sound was delayed by a few milliseconds as his set-up corrected scratches, pops and crackles before they got to the speakers. It was an amazing thing to see and hear.
It was quite a simple device, and there were a number of DIY designs in the electronics magazines at the time.
However, 'corrected' isn't really the right term, it 'removed' the clicks.
I used to have a stand-up Sharp music centre, size of a ghetto blaster with a radio, tape deck, integral speakers and best of all double sided record player with two needles that played both sides of vinyl without having to turn it over!! Ran on batteries as well so so you could walk around outdooors playing LPs! Everything on it stopped working eventually and the needles came in these funny cartridges that you couldn`t get anymore so it sadly had to go.
I remember a guy i used to work with having one. Quite a novelty.
A friend of mine had his own Dansette record player like this. Came with the hi-tech 'spec' of on/off volume and a tone control.....but did have autochanger facility where you could stack up your records for the next to flop down which would then invariably slide around on the record beneath!
Not a great success...:D...but these players now fetch pretty good money, particularly if original and not restored.
If you have some serious cash to spend, original Jukebox machines go for crazy money, particularly old Wurlitzer or Rock Ola where you are talking thousands!
If you read turntable reviews (or reviews of other components)
I don't, because I know how and why those things are written. Sorry to sound so harsh, but it's 90% meaningless drivel. I know for a fact that there are reviews written by people who have never even seen the products, never mind listened to them.
Maybe it's because a record is a very simple way of storing music, and a turntable is a very simple way of retrieving it, so if it's done well it can sound very good and if it's done badly it can sound quite bad.
There's some truth in that, but doing it well isn't simple. Doing it to the level of a CD is impossible.
I don't think people plump for digital formats because they prefer lower quality. They just prefer higher convenience, like with microwaved food. They just want to shove the thing into a machine, close the door and push a button. The fact that the results are worse is secondary.
No, I think it's the fact they're so convenient that leads certain people to assume that they're worse.
Meanwhile my Sansa Clip Zip beats my Linn LP12 Sondek. Better sound. Better convenience. Don't even mention the price. It can't play vinyl though, and I have a lot of music that's only available on records.
It was quite a simple device, and there were a number of DIY designs in the electronics magazines at the time.
However, 'corrected' isn't really the right term, it 'removed' the clicks.
The really old stuff (much longer ago that 15 years) was quite nasty - "scratch blankers" and the like. But there's been CEDAR for 25+ years, and there are now a plethora of lower cost options that are nearly as good. You could run the SW on a decent PC in real time 15 years ago - you just needed some host software that allows a live input and a VST plug-in chain and you're away. It's easily as good as what you hear on many CDs of old music that use old records as their source - the results can be better than what you hear on the cheapest re-issue CDs, if you pick decent (not cheap) software to do it yourself, have records in good condition, and a decent turntable/cartridge/etc.
BIB is the main reason. The physical feel of holding something you've paid for which you cannot get from any download......ever.
Also just look at the amazing artwork on some albums. Once again, you won't get that from a download.
I remain unconvinced as to the superior sound of CD. Or Vinyl. But yes; why anyone would want a download as opposed to a physical copy of the work baffles me.
Record Store Day is soooooo 2012 though, isn't it? Cassette Store Day is what all the hip young things are into now: http://cassettestoreday.com/stores
You can't beat the sheer pleasure of whirling one round on a pencil when your tape-deck decides to mangle it.
It's funny reading all the opinions about Vinyl. I think part of the appeal is actually buying and physically handling the sleeve/record - a very tactile operation compared to playing a CD.
From a music point of view it emphases the classic format of how an album should be played and why the tracks are placed in that order. With Vinyl there is something be said for simply displaying them with pride.
I wonder if clear accessibility to Vinyl is keeping the market from expanding. It's easier now to search out and buy records from Amazon and Ebay principally, but that's probably the only two online sources for the average collector (not counting discogs)
The next big obstacle for the vinyl market is the lack of affordable good quality record players. Cheap record players are easy to come by but there are incredible items out there newly manufactured but far too pricey.
It's funny reading all the opinions about Vinyl. I think part of the appeal is actually buying and physically handling the sleeve/record - a very tactile operation compared to playing a CD.
From a music point of view it emphases the classic format of how an album should be played and why the tracks are placed in that order. With Vinyl there is something be said for simply displaying them with pride.
I wonder if clear accessibility to Vinyl is keeping the market from expanding. It's easier now to search out and buy records from Amazon and Ebay principally, but that's probably the only two online sources for the average collector (not counting discogs)
The next big obstacle for the vinyl market is the lack of affordable good quality record players. Cheap record players are easy to come by but there are incredible items out there newly manufactured but far too pricey.
They are there.....if you know what you are looking for and know the basics of a quality deck. Many on eBay though the price they command today is often far more than their original rrp, but still a good buy. I linked to one yesterday, a Pioneer PL12D which back in it's time retailed new at £12. The used one on eBay knocked out at £92. But that's a very good quality deck and sold in the thousands back in the early 70's. Occasionally you will find something like this on Car Boot sales too and i actually picked up a PL12D from one a few years ago for a fiver. Fully working and in pretty good nick. I didn't need it as i already have a deck so that went on ebay.
They are there.....if you know what you are looking for and know the basics of a quality deck. Many on eBay though the price they command today is often far more than their original rrp, but still a good buy. I linked to one yesterday, a Pioneer PL12D which back in it's time retailed new at £12. The used one on eBay knocked out at £92. But that's a very good quality deck and sold in the thousands back in the early 70's. Occasionally you will find something like this on Car Boot sales too and i actually picked up a PL12D from one a few years ago for a fiver. Fully working and in pretty good nick. I didn't need it as i already have a deck so that went on ebay.
New manufactured i wouldn't even bother with.
Blimey your post prompted me to check and the bidding on a Rega Planar 3 same as mine with same arm is at £258 with five days to go. That has to be more than I payed for it new about 25 years ago.
They are there.....if you know what you are looking for and know the basics of a quality deck. Many on eBay though the price they command today is often far more than their original rrp, but still a good buy. I linked to one yesterday, a Pioneer PL12D which back in it's time retailed new at £12. The used one on eBay knocked out at £92. But that's a very good quality deck and sold in the thousands back in the early 70's. Occasionally you will find something like this on Car Boot sales too and i actually picked up a PL12D from one a few years ago for a fiver. Fully working and in pretty good nick. I didn't need it as i already have a deck so that went on ebay.
New manufactured i wouldn't even bother with.
This is where the market in my view, is missing a trick. For a new buyer of vinyl are sadly unaware of what constitutes of good value for money vs quality or even just telling apart junk from a working piece of equipment.
I found it hard to tell apart the technical side of record players. Everything from pre-amps, mono inputs. It almost put me off buying a mid range turntable.
All it takes is someone to provide a comprehensive run down of what to look for when buying a record player.
This is where the market in my view, is missing a trick. For a new buyer of vinyl are sadly unaware of what constitutes of good value for money vs quality or even just telling apart junk from a working piece of equipment.
I found it hard to tell apart the technical side of record players. Everything from pre-amps, mono inputs. It almost put me off buying a mid range turntable.
All it takes is someone to provide a comprehensive run down of what to look for when buying a record player.
Back in the 60's and 70's when vinyl was the 'format' the hi-fi market was a booming industry, despite there being far less money around than today. However much of it was built on a degree of snobbishness with folk buying over-hyped and over-priced equipment. It never made the sound better, though naturally they convinced themselves it really did, but the brand names or models had the desired effect of impressing friends!
That deck i mentioned in a previous posting, the Pioneer PL12D literally 'broke the mould' and confounded the 'experts' and critics who simply couldn't find anything bad about it.......apart from it's low price! It knocked decks costing four or five times the amount into a cocked hat and sold by the shed load to the masses. A major 'upset' for the hi-fi 'snoots'!
The main difference between then and now is people have a lot more 'disposable income'. When i bought my first hi-fi equipment i had to make do with headphones until i'd saved enough money for a pair of speakers! Of course if you knew what you were doing you could build your own speakers at a fraction of the price.
Buying LP's for me is a challenge. The ones in HMV are to expensive. I know you can get them in proper record stores, but I'm usuallly trekking through charity shops for 50p ones.
^^ Its good to see HMV stocking LPs again, but yeah, they are very expensive. A few years ago I found a record shop tucked away in my home town and ever since a friend and I have been going there. When we started going it was just us and mainly older men and women but there were very few people there. The guy running the shop was worried that he would have to close. He hasn't shut up shop and most recently it has become packed with people of all ages in there. My friend and I are now on first name terms with the owner we have been going in there so long
---
I think the "comeback" of vinyl/records is due to quite a few modern bands (e.g Green Day, Biffy Clyro, The Vaccines to name but three) having started to release (or re-release) their music on vinyl and younger people are seeing this and thus seeing what vinyl is all about.
I’ve always loved vinyl and records. My old man inherited his dad’s record player when he dropped off the perch, but he never used it, so growing up I did and started buying vinyl. Now I have quite a bit. IMO listening to a vinyl record sounds better than the CD or download. I have 'Blackened Sky' by Biffy Clyro on CD and on record, its amazing how much better it sounds on vinyl.
Some of the posts on this thread have made me feel positively ancient!
This was similar to the first record player in my family home. Powered by clockwork it had a huge cranking handle at the side, only played 78rpm records (no vinyl then!), and the stylus was the size of a nail held in by a big screw!
I never even owned a record player until i left home and got married!
Just one of the reasons so many people back then got married 'young' by todays standards!
From anyone with a pair of ears or the slightest understanding of the technology involved in both processes
What an utter load of crap that website is, whoever wrote it doesn't have the slightest clue
Vinyl - poor frequency response (with high frequencies getting weaker with every play), high noise levels, high distortion, poor channel separation, poor dynamic range.
A recording is supposed to be an accurate representation of the original sound, CD is FAR, FAR closer to that than vinyl.
In theory, of course, you are 100% correct.
However because of the often reported Loudness war, with the use of techniques such as dynamic range compression and equalization, the sound on the final CD is often far from the highest quality available. ;-)
However because of the often reported Loudness war, with the use of techniques such as dynamic range compression and equalization, the sound on the final CD is often far from the highest quality available. ;-)
When I encounter this on my CDs, I rip them with EAC, take the lot into Wavelab and drop the levels down by 3 to 5db, burn a disc and presto! Much more acceptable. Less overload all the way through the system, no headaches on headphones.
On the vinyl subject, there are a lot of 24 bit 96khz Flac recordings floating around out there, apparently flaunted as demonstration of Vinyl's superiority. Now, I have a lot of Vinyl and I take a lot of care when making digital copies for posterity, so I've sometimes downloaded copies of stuff I have, to compare and maybe save myself the work of archiving my own disc. However, it seems many of those proudly uploading their efforts have no idea how bad their recordings sound. If they've been putting up with what I hear (compared to my own copies) and regarding it as superior to anything.......!
There has been a document increase in Vinyl/Record sales. As a collector I can see the appeal but I still don't understand why it's having such a massive resurgence?
Can anyone shed any light on this?
More aesthetically pleasing. The digital age is becoming too clean and clinical. We all like/need a bit of rough.
Comments
http://www.ehow.com/info_7839876_advantage-tips-phonograph-needle-stylus.html
If you wanted a phono amp, the one below (Michell ISO) was the daddy at the time, but see below.
http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/vinyl-lp/29-phonostages/168-phono-stages-group-test.html?showall=1
It was quite a simple device, and there were a number of DIY designs in the electronics magazines at the time.
However, 'corrected' isn't really the right term, it 'removed' the clicks.
It was this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzU4GpUy0L8
Like seeing an old friend again after 20 years!
I remember a guy i used to work with having one. Quite a novelty.
A friend of mine had his own Dansette record player like this. Came with the hi-tech 'spec' of on/off volume and a tone control.....but did have autochanger facility where you could stack up your records for the next to flop down which would then invariably slide around on the record beneath!
Not a great success...:D...but these players now fetch pretty good money, particularly if original and not restored.
If you have some serious cash to spend, original Jukebox machines go for crazy money, particularly old Wurlitzer or Rock Ola where you are talking thousands!
There's some truth in that, but doing it well isn't simple. Doing it to the level of a CD is impossible.
No, I think it's the fact they're so convenient that leads certain people to assume that they're worse.
Meanwhile my Sansa Clip Zip beats my Linn LP12 Sondek. Better sound. Better convenience. Don't even mention the price. It can't play vinyl though, and I have a lot of music that's only available on records.
The really old stuff (much longer ago that 15 years) was quite nasty - "scratch blankers" and the like. But there's been CEDAR for 25+ years, and there are now a plethora of lower cost options that are nearly as good. You could run the SW on a decent PC in real time 15 years ago - you just needed some host software that allows a live input and a VST plug-in chain and you're away. It's easily as good as what you hear on many CDs of old music that use old records as their source - the results can be better than what you hear on the cheapest re-issue CDs, if you pick decent (not cheap) software to do it yourself, have records in good condition, and a decent turntable/cartridge/etc.
Cheers,
David.
EDIT: here are some links to how good vinyl can sound...
http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/363977-Audacity-32bit-96k-to-16b-44k?p=2317557&viewfull=1#post2317557
...but of course, CD can sound even better
I remain unconvinced as to the superior sound of CD. Or Vinyl. But yes; why anyone would want a download as opposed to a physical copy of the work baffles me.
Record Store Day is soooooo 2012 though, isn't it? Cassette Store Day is what all the hip young things are into now: http://cassettestoreday.com/stores
You can't beat the sheer pleasure of whirling one round on a pencil when your tape-deck decides to mangle it.
From a music point of view it emphases the classic format of how an album should be played and why the tracks are placed in that order. With Vinyl there is something be said for simply displaying them with pride.
I wonder if clear accessibility to Vinyl is keeping the market from expanding. It's easier now to search out and buy records from Amazon and Ebay principally, but that's probably the only two online sources for the average collector (not counting discogs)
The next big obstacle for the vinyl market is the lack of affordable good quality record players. Cheap record players are easy to come by but there are incredible items out there newly manufactured but far too pricey.
New manufactured i wouldn't even bother with.
Blimey your post prompted me to check and the bidding on a Rega Planar 3 same as mine with same arm is at £258 with five days to go. That has to be more than I payed for it new about 25 years ago.
This is where the market in my view, is missing a trick. For a new buyer of vinyl are sadly unaware of what constitutes of good value for money vs quality or even just telling apart junk from a working piece of equipment.
I found it hard to tell apart the technical side of record players. Everything from pre-amps, mono inputs. It almost put me off buying a mid range turntable.
All it takes is someone to provide a comprehensive run down of what to look for when buying a record player.
That deck i mentioned in a previous posting, the Pioneer PL12D literally 'broke the mould' and confounded the 'experts' and critics who simply couldn't find anything bad about it.......apart from it's low price! It knocked decks costing four or five times the amount into a cocked hat and sold by the shed load to the masses. A major 'upset' for the hi-fi 'snoots'!
The main difference between then and now is people have a lot more 'disposable income'. When i bought my first hi-fi equipment i had to make do with headphones until i'd saved enough money for a pair of speakers! Of course if you knew what you were doing you could build your own speakers at a fraction of the price.
^^ Its good to see HMV stocking LPs again, but yeah, they are very expensive. A few years ago I found a record shop tucked away in my home town and ever since a friend and I have been going there. When we started going it was just us and mainly older men and women but there were very few people there. The guy running the shop was worried that he would have to close. He hasn't shut up shop and most recently it has become packed with people of all ages in there. My friend and I are now on first name terms with the owner we have been going in there so long
---
I think the "comeback" of vinyl/records is due to quite a few modern bands (e.g Green Day, Biffy Clyro, The Vaccines to name but three) having started to release (or re-release) their music on vinyl and younger people are seeing this and thus seeing what vinyl is all about.
I’ve always loved vinyl and records. My old man inherited his dad’s record player when he dropped off the perch, but he never used it, so growing up I did and started buying vinyl. Now I have quite a bit. IMO listening to a vinyl record sounds better than the CD or download. I have 'Blackened Sky' by Biffy Clyro on CD and on record, its amazing how much better it sounds on vinyl.
This was similar to the first record player in my family home. Powered by clockwork it had a huge cranking handle at the side, only played 78rpm records (no vinyl then!), and the stylus was the size of a nail held in by a big screw!
I never even owned a record player until i left home and got married!
Just one of the reasons so many people back then got married 'young' by todays standards!
In theory, of course, you are 100% correct.
However because of the often reported Loudness war, with the use of techniques such as dynamic range compression and equalization, the sound on the final CD is often far from the highest quality available. ;-)
When I encounter this on my CDs, I rip them with EAC, take the lot into Wavelab and drop the levels down by 3 to 5db, burn a disc and presto! Much more acceptable. Less overload all the way through the system, no headaches on headphones.
On the vinyl subject, there are a lot of 24 bit 96khz Flac recordings floating around out there, apparently flaunted as demonstration of Vinyl's superiority. Now, I have a lot of Vinyl and I take a lot of care when making digital copies for posterity, so I've sometimes downloaded copies of stuff I have, to compare and maybe save myself the work of archiving my own disc. However, it seems many of those proudly uploading their efforts have no idea how bad their recordings sound. If they've been putting up with what I hear (compared to my own copies) and regarding it as superior to anything.......!
More aesthetically pleasing. The digital age is becoming too clean and clinical. We all like/need a bit of rough.