haha i cant believe there is even any debate :O i am shocked...surely the whole game changing element was that Spike/Dru were back to new strengths....they brought back an ancient demon The Judge for Buffys Bday and Angel indeed finally transformed into Angelus in one fine moment...a moment of pure happiness...it was the idea that someone considered a close friend and Buffys lover would indeed turn into a psychopath overnight that is where the game changed...hense "game changer"...Passion took it to a new level of dread unseen before....Passion wasnt a game changer, but indeed the actualisation that Angelus was NOT Angel and there was nothing to redeem him....also note in the tone of episode before and after Surprise/Innocence...it has such a darker feel/mood to it unlike that kinda "innocent" feel beforehand where any massive threat would seem easy to prevent...in Surprise/Innocence the real stuff "shit got real" moment happened.....anyways....if you think Pasions is i wont correct you...Passions took it to a new darker level that some may consider the ultimate changer....ie - lead character member dies halfway through episode by previous friend/ally turned major big bad!
But there is no question Surprise/Innocence literally broke the mould and transformed a whole new story from the one we thought we knew the first time we saw it
and yeah LM.....Sarah in Innocence showcase what a tour de force actress she is....two of my favourtie scenes are of course the "whats that do?" scene...ICONIC and when she (after her dream sequence and realisation of Angelus/Jenny) paces into SUnnydale High and brutally throttles Miss Calender...priceless! :cool:
I'm not trying to argue that 'Surprise/Innocence' didn't change anything but, personally speaking, Angelus didn't have too much of an impact on me until 'Passion'. That was the point where I thought there was definitely no way back for him. Characters had turned bad before (possession or spells or whatever) but had always been fixed relatively fast without significant consequence; and I just assumed that the same was going to happen with Angel. That it was our chance to see his bad side for a few episodes, but he'd revert back to Angel soon enough. It wasn't until he killed Jenny that I truly believed he'd lost his chance to come back and was a goner. As great as 'Innocence/Surprise' are, they just don't stir up the same :eek: feelings in me the way 'Passion' does.
I understand the arguments about Angel turning in general being the event that totally changes everything (and part of me does agree, considering the way the season went!!) but his turning, on its own, didn't strike me as a problem that couldn't be solved. It was what happened as a result of him turning that made everything impossible to reverse. Then again, 'Passion' wouldn't have even happened had Angel not turned, so I suppose my POV doesn't make too much sense anyway! I know what I mean, I just can't put it into words properly
and yeah LM.....Sarah in Innocence showcase what a tour de force actress she is....two of my favourtie scenes are of course the "whats that do?" scene...ICONIC and when she (after her dream sequence and realisation of Angelus/Jenny) paces into SUnnydale High and brutally throttles Miss Calender...priceless! :cool:
Yes, one of my fav scenes is when she throttles Jenny. Brilliant.
...Angelus didn't have too much of an impact on me until 'Passion'... wasn't until he killed Jenny that I truly believed he'd lost his chance to come back...
I agree. Every sci fi fantasy series has its possessed by aliens / spirits type storylines. How often did some member of Kirk's crew try to take over the Enterprise? Always there was a way to save the person (unless they were a Red Shirt in which case they died) and things would go back to normal all is forgiven.
So when Angel turned I figured they re-instate his soul fairly quickly no harm done. But when he killed and tortured regular characters (not simply Red Shirts) it was quite shocking.
I've just watched the dvd of the second series after many years and I'm actually rather struck with how dark it is.... not in terms of content but in terms of the lighting and sets and so on.
I've always thought I preferred the earlier series because of the school setting, Angel and so on, but I actually seem to prefer the later series now because the production values are so much better.
Series 2 is still pretty compelling though, especially the Angel/Angelus saga, which to me remains the best ever Buffy storyline.
I quite liked Jenny. For me she was really important in Giles' development. Prior to Jenny he was really just portrayed as a stuffy tweed suit. But here he was getting into a relationship, happy, climbing the stairs littered with red roses...
The new Mass Effect 3 DLC and the Tomb Raider reboot have eaten my "non-regular-TV-time" the last week, but I finally got another couple of episodes watched tonight:
Angel 1/09 - "Hero"
Good ep, some nice development for Doyle, and also even Cordy. Although...Shit. I forgot that Doyle was killed off so early!
Buffy 4/10 - "Hush"
Ah, I remembered this being an excellent episode. Also, the music at one point seemed very Elfman-esque, which I'm assuming was deliberate. The Gentlemen were so well done, excellent villains. Nice intro for Tara. The whole loss of verbal communication thing was excellent... plus of course there were some laughs too. I also liked the Buffy/Riley reveal with the silent fight. Oh, and Spike continues to be awesome.
^^Interesting debate above regarding Passion and Surprise/Innocence.:)
I think that both Passion and the Surprise/innocence two-part episodes are turning points.
Both events - Angel losing his soul and becoming Angelus, and Angelus killing Jenny - are 'game changers'. MsWilder11 above makes some great and interesting arguments for the turning points in Passion.:cool:
I was watching Lie to me the other day and It never dawned on me that actually the Angelus storyline was hinted very early on. There is a scene when Angel talks to Drusilla in the park and of course when Drusilla was in her mental state, she could see the future. She says to Angel something along the lines of "if only she knew what was to come", regarding him and buffy's relationship. I can't believe I never caught on to that line before in all times i have re watched Buffy.
i love a game change within a game change that leads to a bigger game change....season 2, 3, 5 are the ones that had the most i think....truly love that :cool:
Also in DS i read about this "Kickstarter" Veronica Mars thing (didnt like the show personally...although i do love Dandy Warhols that did the theme tune on it) but i was thinking Buffy is at the top of the list indefinitely!
Still watching this now, am up to Season 5 Buffy (Season 2 Angel)
And i don't know if it's through watching it rather fast, but the Buffy/Angel "relationship" seemed to be nothing of note especially in season 1/2.
Maybe the passing of a week or two between ep's heighten the anticipation?
I am watching the programs alternately Buffy/Angel, but although i love Angel and it has some great stories and characters, i still find myself just wanting to watch another Buffy instead. (although some of the ladies keep me amused, especially Darla and Lilha...)
Just got to the episode where Ben is revealed as Glory to Dawn after she tells Ben she's the key.
But why does Dawn forget this when she tells Buffy?
Things i've noticed in the re-rewatching of the series'
Didnt really like the initiative (whole story line not episode) first time around but loved it this.
An above poster is right, the lighting on Season 1-3 is pretty bad.
The early seasons were based more around stand alone stories which had elements of the season's arc but the later were seasons this was reversed and the arc seemed to drive most episodes.
also fun seeing people that i was unaware of at the time.
Like Amy Adams as Tara's Cousin.
And Josh Holloway (Sawyer; Lost) as a pretty expendable vamp in Angel.
Also i am sure i saw Stuart from TBBT as an extra in Buffy (season 3 or 4) but cannot find any reference to it...
Still watching this now, am up to Season 5 Buffy (Season 2 Angel)
And i don't know if it's through watching it rather fast, but the Buffy/Angel "relationship" seemed to be nothing of note especially in season 1/2.
Maybe the passing of a week or two between ep's heighten the anticipation?
I am watching the programs alternately Buffy/Angel, but although i love Angel and it has some great stories and characters, i still find myself just wanting to watch another Buffy instead. (although some of the ladies keep me amused, especially Darla and Lilha...)
Just got to the episode where Ben is revealed as Glory to Dawn after she tells Ben she's the key. But why does Dawn forget this when she tells Buffy?
Things i've noticed in the re-rewatching of the series'
Didnt really like the initiative (whole story line not episode) first time around but loved it this.
An above poster is right, the lighting on Season 1-3 is pretty bad.
The early seasons were based more around stand alone stories which had elements of the season's arc but the later were seasons this was reversed and the arc seemed to drive most episodes.
also fun seeing people that i was unaware of at the time.
Like Amy Adams as Tara's Cousin.
And Josh Holloway (Sawyer; Lost) as a pretty expendable vamp in Angel.
Also i am sure i saw Stuart from TBBT as an extra in Buffy (season 3 or 4) but cannot find any reference to it...
Well, as far as Dawn is concerned Ben turns into Glory.
Yet when she goes to mention it to Buffy something stops her...and then she appears to forget.
Maybe it's something i have forgotten which will all be revealed.
There's a spell which makes people forget. There was a very funny sequence later when Spike was trying to explain that Ben was Glory and everyone kept forgetting almost as soon as he said it.
"You mean Ben is connected to Glory?"
Was a phrase that came up quite a lot during that conversation
it's been about 8-9 years since i last watched it so i'll allow myself the odd lapse...
Funnily enough, i had forgotten a lot more about Buffy than Angel.
It seems i can recall every ep of that. (maybe why the Buffy ep's seem to leave me wanting more)
There's a spell which makes people forget. There was a very funny sequence later when Spike was trying to explain that Ben was Glory and everyone kept forgetting almost as soon as he said it.
An idea later "payed homage to" by The Silence in Doctor Who.
I'm watching the final series again on Syfy at the moment, and it's bloody good.
I seem to recall it wasn't my favourite series at the time, far too grim, lots of fallings out and the like, but it's actually quite funny.
Comments
But there is no question Surprise/Innocence literally broke the mould and transformed a whole new story from the one we thought we knew the first time we saw it
I understand the arguments about Angel turning in general being the event that totally changes everything (and part of me does agree, considering the way the season went!!) but his turning, on its own, didn't strike me as a problem that couldn't be solved. It was what happened as a result of him turning that made everything impossible to reverse. Then again, 'Passion' wouldn't have even happened had Angel not turned, so I suppose my POV doesn't make too much sense anyway!
whats that do??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZIYB6zB4cc
Yes, one of my fav scenes is when she throttles Jenny. Brilliant.
I agree. Every sci fi fantasy series has its possessed by aliens / spirits type storylines. How often did some member of Kirk's crew try to take over the Enterprise? Always there was a way to save the person (unless they were a Red Shirt in which case they died) and things would go back to normal all is forgiven.
So when Angel turned I figured they re-instate his soul fairly quickly no harm done. But when he killed and tortured regular characters (not simply Red Shirts) it was quite shocking.
She danced with Prince and then starred in Buffy. That's two of my most favourite things ever ticked off right there.
Shame she is now a full-on god-botherer.
I've always thought I preferred the earlier series because of the school setting, Angel and so on, but I actually seem to prefer the later series now because the production values are so much better.
Series 2 is still pretty compelling though, especially the Angel/Angelus saga, which to me remains the best ever Buffy storyline.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=355AMVyCyIg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oy_3ZD-WIzs
Angel 1/09 - "Hero"
Good ep, some nice development for Doyle, and also even Cordy. Although...Shit. I forgot that Doyle was killed off so early!
Buffy 4/10 - "Hush"
Ah, I remembered this being an excellent episode. Also, the music at one point seemed very Elfman-esque, which I'm assuming was deliberate. The Gentlemen were so well done, excellent villains. Nice intro for Tara. The whole loss of verbal communication thing was excellent... plus of course there were some laughs too. I also liked the Buffy/Riley reveal with the silent fight. Oh, and Spike continues to be awesome.
i try and do it
have you seen the BAMF girls link i posted a couple days back yet??? its hilarious!
Watching the 9 eps again...they are on You Tube
I think that both Passion and the Surprise/innocence two-part episodes are turning points.
Both events - Angel losing his soul and becoming Angelus, and Angelus killing Jenny - are 'game changers'. MsWilder11 above makes some great and interesting arguments for the turning points in Passion.:cool:
Also in DS i read about this "Kickstarter" Veronica Mars thing (didnt like the show personally...although i do love Dandy Warhols that did the theme tune on it) but i was thinking Buffy is at the top of the list indefinitely!
And i don't know if it's through watching it rather fast, but the Buffy/Angel "relationship" seemed to be nothing of note especially in season 1/2.
Maybe the passing of a week or two between ep's heighten the anticipation?
I am watching the programs alternately Buffy/Angel, but although i love Angel and it has some great stories and characters, i still find myself just wanting to watch another Buffy instead.
Just got to the episode where Ben is revealed as Glory to Dawn after she tells Ben she's the key.
But why does Dawn forget this when she tells Buffy?
Things i've noticed in the re-rewatching of the series'
Didnt really like the initiative (whole story line not episode) first time around but loved it this.
An above poster is right, the lighting on Season 1-3 is pretty bad.
The early seasons were based more around stand alone stories which had elements of the season's arc but the later were seasons this was reversed and the arc seemed to drive most episodes.
also fun seeing people that i was unaware of at the time.
Like Amy Adams as Tara's Cousin.
And Josh Holloway (Sawyer; Lost) as a pretty expendable vamp in Angel.
Also i am sure i saw Stuart from TBBT as an extra in Buffy (season 3 or 4) but cannot find any reference to it...
But the saddest thing of all is...
knowing it's going to end (again)
You mean Ben is connected to Giory ?
Well, as far as Dawn is concerned Ben turns into Glory.
Yet when she goes to mention it to Buffy something stops her...and then she appears to forget.
Maybe it's something i have forgotten which will all be revealed.
There's a spell which makes people forget. There was a very funny sequence later when Spike was trying to explain that Ben was Glory and everyone kept forgetting almost as soon as he said it.
"You mean Ben is connected to Glory?"
Was a phrase that came up quite a lot during that conversation
Funnily enough, i had forgotten a lot more about Buffy than Angel.
It seems i can recall every ep of that. (maybe why the Buffy ep's seem to leave me wanting more)
I'm watching the final series again on Syfy at the moment, and it's bloody good.
I seem to recall it wasn't my favourite series at the time, far too grim, lots of fallings out and the like, but it's actually quite funny.