Do you remember when Madonna was cool?

1235

Comments

  • dearmrmandearmrman Posts: 21,434
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    personally I think that any credible artist should never be considered cool

    Apart from her fans is Madonna still credible or is it more the case these days that people are more excited by the producers she teams up with?

    Even with the fans who seem to wet themselves in who she is teaming up with, to me these days it seems less & less about Madonna and more & more about who the producers are.
  • uniqueunique Posts: 12,360
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    Rae_Amury wrote: »
    Lol
    No, not all people who call themselves "artists" have them.



    So Evita was the only different project she did according to you and everything else she did sounds the same? If that's what you are saying then you probably need to have your ears checked.

    i think perhaps you need to get your eyes checked, as if you read what i said, you'll see i never said that



    She is credited on almost every song on her albums (excluding soundtracks). Maybe have also your eyes checked.
    for playing the instruments? i think once you take my advice of an eye check you'll be able to see that's not the case at all



    She run out of ideas? As if she is the first artist it happened to.
    i never said she ran out of ideas so why pose that question to me?



    You only went on to praise how Grace's sound "befits her age" and then went on to preach how Madonna's doesn't. I'm asking why should it matter...?
    once you get your eyes tested and a pair of glasses you can read back that post and see i didn't do that either



    You brought it up, now explain it.
    wrong again. have a read back once you got your glasses. you've said a number of things that i simply haven't said



    So everytime you hear a new piece of music, you run to wikipedia to check if the artists age befits the song? Oh dear.
    no. you asked a question, i gave you an answer. that's not what i do. what matters to me is if i like the music or not and whether the people i play music to will like it or not. what someone looks like or their age is irrelevant



    Apples and oranges.



    And also what is cool to you is not cool to me ;)
    at least you've figured something out
  • mushymanrobmushymanrob Posts: 17,992
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    madiain28 wrote: »
    So mushymanrob maybe we should discount your POV of any of your posts as we won't know what you have based any of your posts on. Sounds to me like your POV of Madonna is based on biased poor journalism or reading others unfactual posts.

    that makes perfect sense doesnt it..... ONE point made MIGHT not be accurate which has nothing to do with madonna, but mariah carey, therefore everything i think and have thought about madonna can be discounted, INCLUDING the TWENTY FIVE odd years i praised her for!


    bonkers.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 3,751
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    Admit it, Madonna is deeply uncool nowadays. I remember a time when you could put on one of her albums and not feel embarrassed about listening to it. Madonna has always been a gay icon, but her music over the last decade has become increasingly more camp and generic. It's the sort of music gay men love to dance to in clubs or while they work out at the gym. Maybe that explains why the only people who are buying her music nowadays are her core fan base, i.e. gay men. I would quite happily listen to Ray of Light in my car at a high volume, but I would never do the same with any of her albums from Confessions onwards. And did she really need to team up with Avicii? She's such a bandwagon jumper.

    Fingers crossed the promotion for her upcoming album will be focused and well-planned. Hard Candy and MDNA were handled poorly.

    Cool? Who, apart from 14 year olds, cares about what's 'cool'?

    I respect Madonna for refusing to conform to absurd stereotypes about gender (in the early part of her career) and age (in the latter part). She looks great in the new Interview photos, which were clearly intended as an act of defiance aimed at all the people complaining she's "too old" to show any flesh now. Personally I wish more women felt so confident of their bodies at 56.

    As for her music - yes, I would agree that with her last couple of albums she has been trying too hard to stay current, and it hasn't worked. That in no way detracts from her past achievements; I can't think of a single artist who hasn't been through weak periods where they seem to have lost their way. Hopefully she will find her form on her next release - shes been written off more than once before, and then returned triumphantly. Although some like to claim her success is due to clever marketing or talented collaborators, it's clear she hasn't lasted 30 years solely on the fruits of others' labour.

    Obviously people are still interested enough to comment on what she does (positively or negatively) so she's not irrelevant yet.
  • vauxhall1964vauxhall1964 Posts: 10,333
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    GetSmart wrote: »

    I can't think of a single artist who hasn't been through weak periods .

    But she's now entering the tenth year of this weak period
  • SereniitySereniity Posts: 588
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    But she's now entering the tenth year of this weak period

    According to who? Hard Candy spawned a massive worldwide hit single and MDNA broke records in the charts and her last two tours also set new records for touring artists. Everyone said Gaga would steal the tour record from Madonna but she hasn't even come close.

    Some of you make it sound like Madonna having zero success when the facts say otherwise.

    You can be sure her next album and the tour that goes with it will break even more records too. So for someone in a bad period she is doing pretty well I would say.
  • vauxhall1964vauxhall1964 Posts: 10,333
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    Sereniity wrote: »
    So for someone in a bad period she is doing pretty well I would say.

    She hasn't had a hit for years, her recent albums have not been well received by critics, pop fans in general and even by many fans and she's become a laughing stock due to exposing herself in public. If that's your definition of doing well I'd hate to think what you consider a career in decline looks like. Her career has been on the skids for quite a long time now no matter what her fans protest.
  • mushymanrobmushymanrob Posts: 17,992
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    She hasn't had a hit for years, her recent albums have not been well received by critics, pop fans in general and even by many fans and she's become a laughing stock due to exposing herself in public. If that's your definition of doing well I'd hate to think what you consider a career in decline looks like. Her career has been on the skids for quite a long time now no matter what her fans protest.

    i agree with you, but youre wasting your time trying to make devoted fans see it from a general music lovers pov. they clearly dont accept the reasons we dont agree with them.
  • SereniitySereniity Posts: 588
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    She hasn't had a hit for years, her recent albums have not been well received by critics, pop fans in general and even by many fans and she's become a laughing stock due to exposing herself in public. If that's your definition of doing well I'd hate to think what you consider a career in decline looks like. Her career has been on the skids for quite a long time now no matter what her fans protest.
    i agree with you, but youre wasting your time trying to make devoted fans see it from a general music lovers pov. they clearly dont accept the reasons we dont agree with them.

    Again this is so not true. 4 Minutes was a massive hit. MDNA didn't have a hit single but the album itself set a record for iTunes and top the charts in over 50 countries. How exactly is that a career on the skids?

    As for critics. Both Hard Candy and MDNA were met with positive reviews according to the industry log metacritic. Hard Candy and MDNA are described as having ''generally favorable reviews''.

    A little research to back up on opinion can go a long way. We have people in here saying wrong stuff about Mariah now saying total lies about Critic responses to Madonna's last few albums.
  • SereniitySereniity Posts: 588
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    Also just for the record. Give Me All Your Lovin' was set to be a top five billboard hit in America but its iTunes sales got discounted because of the album giveaway deal.
  • Cloudy2Cloudy2 Posts: 6,859
    Forum Member
    Sereniity wrote: »
    Also just for the record. Give Me All Your Lovin' was set to be a top five billboard hit in America but its iTunes sales got discounted because of the album giveaway deal.


    The same thing happened here, although top 5 might have been pushing it slightly but it would have been top 10 without the iTunes preorder.

    I have resisted this thread because as many have said there is no point in debating with hardcore fans but there is also no point debating with haters.

    She hasn't had a hit single in years because in the last 5 years she has only released 1 album MDNA and 3 singles none of which were her finest hour, if another album had been released I would have expected the lead single to chart well for a couple of weeks. MDNA was also in the top 20 best selling albums of 2012, although it was her lowest selling album ever. So not a complete lack of success.

    We will see what happens with the new material in the next 3 months, although I am concerned to read that the album is 18 tracks, this is too long and should be cut to no more than 13.

    Long charting singles are probably not going to happen because of lack of radio airplay but enough sales to push the lead single top 10 is achievable. Promotion is key this time, she actually has to do it.

    To others who suggest Madonna only lasted because she jumped on bandwagon producers is silly. There were no 'hot producers' on her first album. She used Nile Rodgers for Like A Virgin but that would have been Sire/Warner records that arranged that. From True Blue to Like A Prayer she worked with Stephen Bray and Patrick Leonard neither were 'hot producers'. For Erotica it was Shep Pettibone a remixer not a 'hot producer'. On Bedtime Stories she did jump on the Dallas Austin/Nelly Hooper bandwagon and it produced her worst album. Ray Of Light I don't think anyone can say seriously suggest that William Orbit was 'hot' until that album, William had also been remixing Madonna singles for years. Music and American Life were Mirwais produced albums again he was in no way a 'hot producer'. Confessions was Stuart Price like Orbit a long time remixer of Madonna singles but not a 'hot producer'. Hard Candy was different, Warner's told her to work with Neptunes and Timberland because Confessions did not sell well in the US and Warner's wanted a more US sounding album. Madonna did not necessarily choose those producers, I would agree they were 'hot' at the time. MDNA she worked with lots of producers some might have been considered 'hot' but William Orbit and Martin Solveig not so much. As for the new album we don't know yet who has worked and how much, we know Avicii has some production duties and that might be considered bandwagon jumping but Madonna has know him for years. To summarise for most if her music career Madonna has not jumped on bandwagons but on occasions she has.

    On the OPs subject of coolness, I would say Madonna has had periods of coolness. I think she achieved coolness through most of her 80's output, that faded with 1992's sex book and Erotica album, she regained coolness in 1998 with Ray Of Light and it lasted for around 4 years. Since then she has not been 'in' expect for the hardcore fan base. I don't think coolness will return anytime soon.
  • madiain28madiain28 Posts: 1,027
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    The being cool bit is entirely subjective to people's own perception and point of view. To some people Madonna never was cool to others she always will be. What's more interesting is how people both negatively and positively try to enforce or evidence their own view point. Most probably 90% of the information written is fabricated or just completely made up. As with most media stories written about anyone in the media it's open to be manipulated by the authors own perception and also by the person then reading it.
    The facts remain that Madonna is the most successful female recording artist.
    Yes her popularity is no where near what is was in the eighties but it would be impossible for any artist to remain at the peak of popularity for a thirty year period. If you look back from 1983 we have had hundreds of artists who were seen as the next big thing completely vanish as well as many others who have continued to have a career and earn a reasonable living without being in the media. What made Madonna's career interesting was the level she has remained throughout the past 30 years and consistently been in the media.
    Yes some albums have been better than others, some have propelled her to the forefront of the music industry others have remained popular with fans but unpopular with the mass buying public. Her tours have become huge money makers proving to be bigger and more popular and in demand as her career has progressed which has itself been critazised due to the pricing of tickets.
    But overall how I perceive Madonna to be cool and remain most cool is as a business woman. Madonna has really only been perceived in the media in a positive light around the Ray of Light era which was more around her becoming a mother and marrying Guy Ritchie. From the outset of her career most of the media was always negative and that's were as a business woman she was very clever and remains very clever. In the past week as it was announced she is the richest music artist the Interview photo shoot hit the media with the topless pic. Within minutes Madoonna was trending across the Internet, front page headlines worldwide across every country, song being leaked (clever marketing or theft) prime time talk shows across the world all getting their points of view broadcast. Forum boards, Twitter, etc all talking about Madonna be it positive or negative. In the world media no publicity is bad publicity especially when you are the product. As the release of her album and likely tour get closer this is likely to increase. Like previous releases and tours Madonna usually spends very little to nothing on promotion as the press do it on mass scale. One thing Madonna is cool at is manipulating media to her advantage.
    For a 56 year old woman that's apparently not relevant according to many she's pretty much dominated the media for a thirty year period along with charts, music videos, tours and merchandising.
  • Terry HesticlesTerry Hesticles Posts: 267
    Forum Member
    Until Lady Gaga comes up with something as musically brilliant as Promise To Try or Till Death Do Us Part she shouldn't even enter a comparison and isn't fit to lick Madonna's patent leather thigh-high boot.
  • uniqueunique Posts: 12,360
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    Cloudy2 wrote: »
    To others who suggest Madonna only lasted because she jumped on bandwagon producers is silly. There were no 'hot producers' on her first album. She used Nile Rodgers for Like A Virgin but that would have been Sire/Warner records that arranged that. From True Blue to Like A Prayer she worked with Stephen Bray and Patrick Leonard neither were 'hot producers'. For Erotica it was Shep Pettibone a remixer not a 'hot producer'. On Bedtime Stories she did jump on the Dallas Austin/Nelly Hooper bandwagon and it produced her worst album. Ray Of Light I don't think anyone can say seriously suggest that William Orbit was 'hot' until that album, William had also been remixing Madonna singles for years. Music and American Life were Mirwais produced albums again he was in no way a 'hot producer'. Confessions was Stuart Price like Orbit a long time remixer of Madonna singles but not a 'hot producer'. Hard Candy was different, Warner's told her to work with Neptunes and Timberland because Confessions did not sell well in the US and Warner's wanted a more US sounding album. Madonna did not necessarily choose those producers, I would agree they were 'hot' at the time. MDNA she worked with lots of producers some might have been considered 'hot' but William Orbit and Martin Solveig not so much. As for the new album we don't know yet who has worked and how much, we know Avicii has some production duties and that might be considered bandwagon jumping but Madonna has know him for years. To summarise for most if her music career Madonna has not jumped on bandwagons but on occasions she has.

    this whole part can be summed up like this...

    "madonna didn't work with a list of hot producers, she worked with..." and then listed a load of hot producers

    a hot producer doesn't necesarily mean someone with massive commercial success. it sounds like you know very little about the people to which you've named. pettibone was one of the most succesful producers and remixers from the disco era onwards. willliam orbit was part of s-express before doing some influential and popular solo projects (fascinating rhythm and strange cargo for example) . nelly hooper was involved with massive attack and soul 2 soul. mirwais gained a big underground following as part of the french house scene which gained attention from others like madonna. timbaland was about at the peak of his success when madonna got him onboard. it's basically a continous stream of jumping from one producer to another who has either commercial or underground success

    and a few people have pointed to the people involved in the other aspects of her career success from stylists to video producers and others involved in the image side of things, to which again she's jumped from one bunch of people to another
  • Cloudy2Cloudy2 Posts: 6,859
    Forum Member
    unique wrote: »
    this whole part can be summed up like this...

    "madonna didn't work with a list of hot producers, she worked with..." and then listed a load of hot producers

    a hot producer doesn't necesarily mean someone with massive commercial success.

    it sounds like you know very little about the people to which you've named.

    pettibone was one of the most succesful producers and remixers from the disco era onwards.

    willliam orbit was part of s-express before doing some influential and popular solo projects (fascinating rhythm and strange cargo for example) .

    nelly hooper was involved with massive attack and soul 2 soul.

    mirwais gained a big underground following as part of the french house scene which gained attention from others like madonna.

    timbaland was about at the peak of his success when madonna got him onboard.

    it's basically a continous stream of jumping from one producer to another who has either commercial or underground success

    And a few people have pointed to the people involved in the other aspects of her career success from stylists to video producers and others involved in the image side of things, to which again she's jumped from one bunch of people to another


    My definition of a 'hot producer' is someone who has commercial success and a proven track record in making hit albums. It's not some unknown/underground producer. Most music acts do not make albums for art, Madonna certainly doesn't, they make albums for commercial success.

    "I know very little about the people I named". Thank you for your input, subtle as ever.

    "pettibone was one of the most successful producers". Wrong he was a very successful 'hot' remixer, he was not commercially successful at producing hit albums when Erotica was made. He went on to produce albums for Cathy Dennis and Taylor Dayne (the big time).

    Orbit's work with S-Express was remixing, as for Strange Cargo, 3 albums, none of which charted or sold anywhere. Orbit was not commercially successful until Ray Of Light, that album made him a 'hot producer'. It should also be noted that Orbit worked with Prince in the 90's, surely Prince was not jumping on bandwagons?, I do not think Prince was, just as Madonna was not.

    I clearly stated that Nellee Hooper was jumping on a bandwagon, so why bring that up????

    Mirwais was not 'hot' when he worked with Madonna, all his attempts at singles and albums had flopped, none were successful. I also don't think Mirwais became 'hot' after his Madonna work unlike Orbit and Price.

    As with Nellee Hooper I stated Timbaland/Timberlake and Neptunes was bandwagon jumping???? I also stated that it was Warner's that wanted that production team as Confessions had not sold as well in the US and Warner's wanted a US sounding album. Warner's did the jumping on a bandwagon not Madonna.

    "it's basically a continuous stream of jumping from one producer to another who has either commercial or underground success"

    It's the moving from producer to producer (few of which were hot) that kept Madonna current and selling in the 80's, 90's and 00's. Perhaps the lesson learned for new acts is if you want long term commercial success then change your sound/producers, just like Madonna does.

    Of all of Madonna's albums I think she jumped on bandwagons three times and they were not always Madonna's decision.
  • mushymanrobmushymanrob Posts: 17,992
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    Cloudy2 wrote: »
    I have resisted this thread because as many have said there is no point in debating with hardcore fans but there is also no point debating with haters.

    .

    you clearly havnt read the thread then.... because if you did, youd see that those of us who are critical of 'recent times' madonna also have a liking/respect for her previous works...therefore there are NO 'haters' on this thread.

    we are saddend that this once great pop artist has in our eyes 'lost it' by reverting to trying to be young. its seen as desperate and her recent material hasnt got the critical acclaim her earlier work has.

    now the sooner you devoted fans understand that this is our considered view, a view that we have 30 years of experiencing madonna to judge by, and accept it whether you agree or not, the sooner we can all move on.
  • uniqueunique Posts: 12,360
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    Cloudy2 wrote: »
    My definition of a 'hot producer' is someone who has commercial success and a proven track record in making hit albums. It's not some unknown/underground producer. Most music acts do not make albums for art, Madonna certainly doesn't, they make albums for commercial success.

    if you need to create your own definition then you are only fooling yourself. ultimately you are wrong
  • SereniitySereniity Posts: 588
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    you clearly havnt read the thread then.... because if you did, youd see that those of us who are critical of 'recent times' madonna also have a liking/respect for her previous works...therefore there are NO 'haters' on this thread.

    we are saddend that this once great pop artist has in our eyes 'lost it' by reverting to trying to be young. its seen as desperate and her recent material hasnt got the critical acclaim her earlier work has.

    now the sooner you devoted fans understand that this is our considered view, a view that we have 30 years of experiencing madonna to judge by, and accept it whether you agree or not, the sooner we can all move on.

    Erm, Masterpiece won a Golden Globe and would have bagged an Oscar nomination had Madonna not oversighted the Oscar rules by mistake.

    And again, her MDNA Tour was met with critical acclaim from the music press. Unless you heard and read different?
  • mushymanrobmushymanrob Posts: 17,992
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    Sereniity wrote: »
    Erm, Masterpiece won a Golden Globe and would have bagged an Oscar nomination had Madonna not oversighted the Oscar rules by mistake.

    And again, her MDNA Tour was met with critical acclaim from the music press. Unless you heard and read different?

    i am unaware that her recent material has had the same level of critical acclaim as her 'golden era' did. only time will tell whether or not it does stand the test of time. for me though...its pretty poor in comparison.

    however thats only half the point, the other is that she is seen as desperate and rather pathetic by courting the youth market .
  • madiain28madiain28 Posts: 1,027
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭

    however thats only half the point, the other is that she is seen as desperate and rather pathetic by courting the youth market .

    But that is your opinion it's not fact! You may see her as desperate and pathetic trying to court the youth market as might many others but the flip side of the argument many others don't and they have commented on the forum as well. It's also been an interesting week in the media a s what started as quite a negative media coverage of the top less pic has seen a surge over the weekend of positive press of many journalists especially female ones. As for her being desperate in my opinion Madonna has always been pop music which primarily is and has always been dominated by young artists most of who's career is over within a year. Being a pop artist basically is what is currently popular music of the current time so by definition itself she is going to work and collaborate with who is currently popular. Luckily Madonna has such iconic status within the music industry that she can pick and choose who she wants to collaborate with so its common sense your going to choose the cream of the crop. At the end of the day Madonna is a product and is under a 120 million dollars contract. Live Nation I can't imagine would be happy if she suddenly decided to completely change her music style or appeal to the popular market.
    I do agree with many comments about MDNA although not an awful album and did have some really good tracks however in my opinion was one of her weakest albums. The entire project appeared to me to be driven by Live Nation rushing to get their first Madonna release out. Not helped by her worst album cover and worst choices of single releases.
  • RocketpopRocketpop Posts: 1,350
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    I find it amusing people are praising Madonna for getting her tits out, fighting against ageism or be arty (hahahaha) etc. The truth is the amount of money, surgery, lightning and photo shopping required makes it a totally unrealistic picture of Madonna or a woman of the age of 56 - it's nothing to do with ageism, it's just a sad insult really.
  • RoadRoverRoadRover Posts: 184
    Forum Member
    It's curious how people seem to measure a career over recent chart positions. Madonna has been told she is "over" so many times I've lost count. The first real backlash was the Erotica Period....then she came back with her biggest ever no 1 hit in the USA, Take A Bow.

    Then she was quiet and people though she was over and had given it up for motherhood. She then came back with Ray of Light......Then Music. Then she mistepped again with American Life..the 2nd really big backlash of her career....What came next? Confessions on a Dancefloor and her most Successful single ever, Hung Up.

    Hard Candy was not my favourite, but there is no denying that 4 minutes was a huge hit reaching no 3 in USA and no1 in UK. Give it to me was also a big single. MDNA faltered singles wise, but Give Me All Your Loving went top 10 in USA but due to the pre order screw up didn't in the UK. It certainly would have otherwise. But what did happen with MDNA? The most successfull and lucrative Tour ever done by a solo artist.

    So is she baggin no 1 hits like she used to? No. But in the days where Union J get a no 1 single in the Uk..I'm not sure it's really that important or that much of an accomplishment these days. I would bet money on her definatley going top ten with her next single, not that it really matters.

    If the likes of Gaga can learn anything from Madonna, it's not about her image, controversies or hits..it's about how to come back after an enormous wave of public criticism. So in all honesty, keep saying Madonna's career is over. She just constantly proves these people wrong.
  • mushymanrobmushymanrob Posts: 17,992
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    madiain28 wrote: »
    But that is your opinion it's not fact! You may see her as desperate and pathetic trying to court the youth market as might many others but the flip side of the argument many others don't and they have commented on the forum as well. .

    i didnt say it was a fact...lol.. the only 'fact' is that many people see her as i do, and many dont.
    i also said days ago that we are not going to agree, so just accept this and move on.
    RoadRover wrote: »
    Then she was quiet and people though she was over and had given it up for motherhood. She then came back with Ray of Light......Then Music. Then she mistepped again with American Life..the 2nd really big backlash of her career....What came next? Confessions on a Dancefloor and her most Successful single ever, Hung Up.

    .

    hung up might be statistically her most successful single ever, but its far from being her most respected and critically acclaimed.

    the point is that once any long term artist has gained a loyal fan base they can realease any old crap and the devoted will buy it.

    proof? well ...
    not many think that jackos best material was his later offerings, his most respected era was 'off the wall'

    stevie wonders most successful single was 'i just called to say i love you' which was bloody awful!

    you can see this thoughout the pop industry... and madonna is no exception.
  • RoadRoverRoadRover Posts: 184
    Forum Member


    hung up might be statistically her most successful single ever, but its far from being her most respected and critically acclaimed.

    .

    Well that wasn't really my point. It was the fact that this thread is like oh she's over..and Hung Up was Proof she comes back from commercial disappointments..thats all
  • Rae_AmuryRae_Amury Posts: 588
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    unique wrote: »
    i think perhaps you need to get your eyes checked, as if you read what i said, you'll see i never said that

    Your own words:
    unique wrote: »
    madonnas done the same thing for the last 30 years now so it's unlikely she's going to change and do something different.

    what she has done differently is evita, but that was 20 odd years ago. personally I couldn't stand it, but it was different

    Thats why I have asked if "Evita was the only different project she did according to you and everything else she did sounds the same?", hun, to make sure it's not what you mean, because that would be BS.
    unique wrote: »
    i never said she ran out of ideas so why pose that question to me?

    Oh dear... It was a rhetorical question, obviously.

    Im not some stupid fan who is kissing her ass. I know her last two albums were stale and thats why I think she run out of ideas and lost the touch. The fact the number of people involved in creating her last albums increased is also a sign of that imo.
Sign In or Register to comment.