The Most Controversial Producer

MulettMulett Posts: 9,055
Forum Member
OK, this will be fun!

Over the years there have been a number of high profile Doctor Who executive producers who have made massive changes to the show and often split opinion amongst fans.

This is in no way a popularity contest - its a vote to see which producer you think had the highest and most controversial public profile.

I'm only giving a choice of three because, when all is said and done, there are really only three who the public could probably name (and Verity Lambert is hardly controversial, unless you want to talk about Eldorado).

So, here's who you're voting for:

John Nathan-Turner
Russell T Davies
Steven Moffat

Who was Doctor Who's most controversial producer? 118 votes

John Nathan-Turner
60% 71 votes
Russell T Davies
8% 10 votes
Steven Moffat
25% 30 votes
Someone Else
5% 7 votes
«1

Comments

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 370
    Forum Member
    Mulett wrote: »
    OK, this will be fun!

    Over the years there have been a number of high profile Doctor Who executive producers who have made massive changes to the show and often split opinion amongst fans.

    This is in no way a popularity contest - its a vote to see which producer you think had the highest and most controversial public profile.

    I'm only giving a choice of three because, when all is said and done, there are really only three who the public could probably name (and Verity Lambert is hardly controversial, unless you want to talk about Eldorado).

    So, who is it for you:

    John Nathan-Turner
    Russell T Davies
    Steven Moffat

    Which will very quickly turn into yet another 'slagging off' fest. No thanks. :)
  • Benjamin SiskoBenjamin Sisko Posts: 1,921
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    JNT by far. After all, he was the one that had such controversies under his belt such as the 1985 hiatus - compared to that, Moffat's split seasons are nothing compared to that, as well as the debacle too.

    Anyone who even thinks about clicking RTD or Moffat should really research Who in the 80s first - that was a very dark time for the show near the end of the decade.
  • MulettMulett Posts: 9,055
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    JNT - my goodness, what a list:
    • pretending to get rid of the police box
    • pretending the 5th Doctor might be a woman
    • Colin Baker's costume
    • the 18-month hiatus
    • getting the episodes per season halved
    • Hiring Bonnie Langford
    • the McCoy years!
    • The show's cancelled
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 118
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    its gotta be jnt and in some respects andrew cartmel they came up with some plots and story lines that make moffats ideas look tame
  • Dr. LinusDr. Linus Posts: 6,445
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    Mulett wrote: »
    JNT - my goodness, what a list:
    • pretending to get rid of the police box
    • pretending the 5th Doctor might be a woman
    • Colin Baker's costume
    • the 18-month hiatus
    • getting the episodes per season halved
    • Hiring Bonnie Langford
    • the McCoy years!
    • The show's cancelled

    Let's not forget the multiple godawful versions of the theme tune that JNT insisted should have an 80s sound, the travesty of Colin Baker's introduction, and the massive focus on nostalgia which alienated almost everyone... yeah, it's a very big list indeed!

    Undeniably a very ambitious and brave man though, to make so many bold moves.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 631
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    What about Barry letts hiring a comedian to play the role and confining the doctor too earth. Then in his first year getting a big telling off for the amount of graphic violence used. Lol the suffocation by plastic chair was too much for kids
  • LivingDestinyLivingDestiny Posts: 714
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    Mulett wrote: »
    JNT - my goodness, what a list:
    • pretending to get rid of the police box
    • pretending the 5th Doctor might be a woman
    • Colin Baker's costume
    • the 18-month hiatus
    • getting the episodes per season halved
    • Hiring Bonnie Langford
    • the McCoy years!
    • The show's cancelled

    Didn't he also get rid of the screwdriver? We could do with that now :D
  • plateletplatelet Posts: 26,361
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    Mulett wrote: »
    JNT - my goodness, what a list:
    • pretending to get rid of the police box
    • pretending the 5th Doctor might be a woman
    • Colin Baker's costume
    • the 18-month hiatus
    • getting the episodes per season halved
    • Hiring Bonnie Langford
    • the McCoy years!
    • The show's cancelled

    Moffat's to do list?:D
  • CELT1987CELT1987 Posts: 12,347
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    Mulett wrote: »
    JNT - my goodness, what a list:
    • pretending to get rid of the police box
    • pretending the 5th Doctor might be a woman
    • Colin Baker's costume
    • the 18-month hiatus
    • getting the episodes per season halved
    • Hiring Bonnie Langford
    • the McCoy years!
    • The show's cancelled
    Question marks on the collar too!
  • AirboraeAirborae Posts: 2,644
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    By all accounts Philip Hinchcliffe is the most controversial, seeing as the right-wing press used to vilify the show every week and claim it as too frightening for children. At least three of his stories were banned overseas for such reason.

    Compared to Moffat, Hinchcliffe is the real bad boy!
  • MulettMulett Posts: 9,055
    Forum Member
    CELT1987 wrote: »
    Question marks on the collar too!

    Oh and all over McCoy's jumper. And that stupid question mark umbrella too.
  • Dr. LinusDr. Linus Posts: 6,445
    Forum Member
    In all seriousness, I agree that there's just no competition here - I'm too young to remember the eighties, but having read/watched an awful lot of Doctor Who history/documentaries JNT blows RTD and Moffat out the water ten times over. The list of mistakes is just endless. I've always felt quite sorry for him though, I get the feeling he was genuinely doing his best. I don't think people take into account quite how much of an identity crisis Doctor Who faced after Tom left, it's understandable that things went off the rails a bit.
  • bp2bp2 Posts: 1,117
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    I think its a bit unfair putting Steven Moffat in this list, his era hasn't ended and we don't know the truth of what happened behind the scenes and how much he was influenced by BBC Management.
  • MulettMulett Posts: 9,055
    Forum Member
    Dr. Linus wrote: »
    In all seriousness, I agree that there's just no competition here - I'm too young to remember the eighties, but having read/watched an awful lot of Doctor Who history/documentaries JNT blows RTD and Moffat out the water ten times over. The list of mistakes is just endless. I've always felt quite sorry for him though, I get the feeling he was genuinely doing his best. I don't think people take into account quite how much of an identity crisis Doctor Who faced after Tom left, it's understandable that things went off the rails a bit.

    The saddest thing about JNT is that he initially got it SO right - he saved the show from falling viewing figures, brought in a terrific new Doctor (Davison) and really made it feel new, modern and exciting.

    But then . . .
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 476
    Forum Member
    I have some difficulty with the idea of JNT as most controversial.

    1) He's as guilty as much for inaction as action.
    2) Most of his ideas are gaudy wallpaper cheaply plastered over the cracks to hide the slow but progressive structural decay in the series
    2b) Actually pretty much all his tinkering is just puerile nonsense at best - at worst a fundamental failure to understand the programme and instead stuff with geeky navel contemplation to fans tastes and hi-camp and tinsel to his taste
    3) Whilst JNT had his detractors at the time, the lack of the internet, and the closed shop element of fandom meant little leaked out really until the bitter end of the final few seasons and in the wider domain post 1989.
    4) Even his supporters admit he had a lot of crap ideas - and was on a hiding for nothing in terms of top floor support.
    5) Even his detractors accept that for Season 18 and perhaps up to the Davison era end his excesses were in check to some extent, the odd polished turd presented itself, and he hjad zero top floor support

    I could go on but you get the idea. I'd argue instead he was an ill-advised choice for Producer. Nevertheless more often than not opposing sides can agree in some areas.

    Controversial - that's something else, and perhaps requires real time accessibility to discuss and debate the series. Something only the modern era really offers. Other eras to this day are protected by analysis in retrospect, history as written by victors, discreet veils drawn over some of the major dissents and controversies at the time.

    Our tools for research, analysis and critique will always be more compromised because of the distance by which we reach out to these eras and our connection to them.

    Instead, look at the entrenched and polarised stand off between New and Classic series fans with some poor sods (and I include myself as an admirer of both series) caught in the cross-fire. Does a difference on views over the 80s come close to this divide of opinion?.

    RTD polls less, is not perhaps in himself a controversial character, but the whole reason you cant get New and Classic to meet halfway is surely down to those decisions made by Production and BBC Management in 2003 and 2004.

    Thoughts?
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 631
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    How do you mean you can't tally classic with new who due too rtd. Not really with you on that
  • Shawn_LunnShawn_Lunn Posts: 9,353
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    I had to vote for JNT. Sorry folks.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 476
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    snopaelic wrote: »
    How do you mean you can't tally classic with new who due too rtd. Not really with you on that

    I didn't say you couldn't - read my post!.

    I'm simply observing and passing comment on the deep divides apparent on this, GB, The Hive, Planet Mondas and practically every other forum.

    It's not always pinned down as a personal attack on RTD, he gets away lightly compared to recent posts against Moff. Nevertheless ths fundamental divide that appears to exist between New and Old fandom obviously first occurs at this juncture.

    RTD completely changed the format of a series in a way that JNT never came close to. I consider RTD a good "producer" (He isn't really he's an exec and a head of scripts and all things story led. Phil was Producer) but I recognise him as controversial. What I'm reading in this thread thus far is people voting for a very bad producer with little opposing view on this. Bad and controversial are not necessarily the same.

    Similarly an earlier poster is spot on. Hinchcliffe was a highly controversial Producer (who I adored) giving us high production values and great drama while blowing the budget and delivering unsurpassed levels of psychological and visual horror to the programme. The establishment "won" on those - Hinchcliffe removed and the programmes edginess neutered. I feel the programme is, to this day, poorer for those victories.
  • Dr. LinusDr. Linus Posts: 6,445
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    The new and classic divide was always going to happen, and the single biggest challenge of Series 1 was going to be managing the transition and in terms of the hardcore classic fans that would inevitably be skeptical, it was all about damage limitation.

    RTD did a fantastic job with that in my opinion and it's one of the only things pretty much everyone - especially people in the industry - agree he did very well. He made what had become a very niche show an accessible programme with universal appeal, and he did that without sacrificing the most important aspects of the format. Let's look at what was actually changed:

    - Serial format abandoned (albeit some two-parters still present)
    - Much deeper focus on character and emotion
    - An effort for the show to exist within the real world
    - A companion that was not just there to ask questions and was arguably the main character

    There are many things that weren't changed. It would have been a very easy decision to reboot the show, instead the new series followed on from the classic and at least one episode in the second series revolved entirely around stitching the two together purely to please the old crowd (School Reunion). All the most beloved villains returned within the first three-four years, and the character of the Doctor was exactly the same man.

    I can't accept that this was the most controversial thing a producer has done... The JNT years, on the other hand, are at the root of almost all the problems that plague the classic fanbase - the sense of entitlement, the crushing need for continuity, the skepticism of any bold fresh starts - these are all problems that JNT not only caused but actively encouraged. I have the utmost respect for the man and as I've said I am genuinely sympathetic to him, but no one caused such universal distress as JNT did.

    And in my book, any man whose decisions define an entire decade of the show is a controversial figure, not just plain bad. Let's not forget that some people loved him for allowing the fans to run the asylum, it's only in retrospect that he's got such a universal bad rap.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 476
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    Perhaps JNT isn't controversial - just crap.

    I agree with your assessment on RTD but would query the comment "universally agreed". In the industry yes, but in fandom across ALL major forums - not sure on that at all

    Go look at THE HIVE for example. Consider the Eye of Horus website and its aficionados
  • Tom TitTom Tit Posts: 2,554
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    snopaelic wrote: »
    What about Barry letts hiring a comedian to play the role and confining the doctor too earth.


    Barry Letts didn't do any of that. Derrick sherwin did. Barry Letts inherited those decisions from him. Neither he nor Terrance Dicks liked the latter, which is why they changed it.

    For the record, the Doctor that was actually cast by Barry Letts was Tom Baker, before he handed over to Phillip Hinchcliffe.
  • JCRJCR Posts: 24,028
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    ncr1969 wrote: »
    I have some difficulty with the idea of JNT as most controversial.

    1) He's as guilty as much for inaction as action.
    2) Most of his ideas are gaudy wallpaper cheaply plastered over the cracks to hide the slow but progressive structural decay in the series
    2b) Actually pretty much all his tinkering is just puerile nonsense at best - at worst a fundamental failure to understand the programme and instead stuff with geeky navel contemplation to fans tastes and hi-camp and tinsel to his taste
    3) Whilst JNT had his detractors at the time, the lack of the internet, and the closed shop element of fandom meant little leaked out really until the bitter end of the final few seasons and in the wider domain post 1989.
    4) Even his supporters admit he had a lot of crap ideas - and was on a hiding for nothing in terms of top floor support.
    5) Even his detractors accept that for Season 18 and perhaps up to the Davison era end his excesses were in check to some extent, the odd polished turd presented itself, and he hjad zero top floor support

    I could go on but you get the idea. I'd argue instead he was an ill-advised choice for Producer. Nevertheless more often than not opposing sides can agree in some areas.

    Controversial - that's something else, and perhaps requires real time accessibility to discuss and debate the series. Something only the modern era really offers. Other eras to this day are protected by analysis in retrospect, history as written by victors, discreet veils drawn over some of the major dissents and controversies at the time.

    Our tools for research, analysis and critique will always be more compromised because of the distance by which we reach out to these eras and our connection to them.

    Instead, look at the entrenched and polarised stand off between New and Classic series fans with some poor sods (and I include myself as an admirer of both series) caught in the cross-fire. Does a difference on views over the 80s come close to this divide of opinion?.

    RTD polls less, is not perhaps in himself a controversial character, but the whole reason you cant get New and Classic to meet halfway is surely down to those decisions made by Production and BBC Management in 2003 and 2004.

    Thoughts?

    There are one or two controversies regarding JNT. He:


    1. Spat in Nicola Bryant's face at a convention.
    2 . Got Ian Levine to pay for prostitutes for him in return for access to the show.
    3. Engaged in sex acts while in the office.
    4. Was alcoholic and was presumably drunk a lot of the time while running the show
    5. Actively looked for fans in their late teens at conventions who might be willing to have sex with him because he was producer of Doctor Who; the "doable barkers"
    6. Was interested in making money from panto/conventions at the expense of the show, it is felt by some Bonnie Langford was hired purely to give her a higher profile for pantos JNT was producer of.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 631
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    ncr1969 wrote: »
    I didn't say you couldn't - read my post!.

    I never said you said I couldn't read. I meant I wasn't sure what you meant by changing the format.

    I like classic and I like my-who but not so taken on Moffat and matt smith. I think RTD had too change the format because old who wouldn't really work now. Although there are a few similarities between the last season of who and my-who. As much as we don't like it shiws have too change
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 631
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    Lol I change my vote to Derik Sherman for the same reasons.

    Doctor Who by its nature of ever its changing actor is a show that is always changing. I think one of the reasons JNT is contraversail is the length of his stay. Maybe had he left sooner and not out stayed his welcome he might not be universally hated
  • Irma BuntIrma Bunt Posts: 1,847
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    snopaelic wrote: »
    What about Barry letts hiring a comedian to play the role and confining the doctor too earth. Then in his first year getting a big telling off for the amount of graphic violence used. Lol the suffocation by plastic chair was too much for kids

    Even though Barry Letts didn't do any of that - he inherited it - and the fact that Jon Pertwee wasn't a comedian but an actor who had done a lot of comedy (and there is a difference), those elements combined gave us, in Season 7, arguably the best season of Classic Who. That doesn't make it controversial, that makes it a triumph. (And the complaints about the "violence" because of plastic chairs suffocating people came in Pertwee's second season, not his first).
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