I read that a guy selling food from a cart outside one of the towers was killed.
The company I work for used to be part of AT&T and colleagues of mine know the guys who monitored the incoming satellite feeds for the TV networks. A lot of the footage was completely unbroadcastable and very, very, harrowing.
A lot of those trapped above where the planes hit very quickly realised they were doomed and chose to jump.
There are also people who have died since, with health conditions caused by that day, so the toll would be higher were that taken into account. Awful, awful event.
Has anyone been to visit the memorial pools? I don't think they could have come up with a nicer tribute. I think the museum having a gift shop is a little insensitive though. Don't get me started on people taking selfies at the site which is disgraceful and entirely inappropriate. Hopefully I will visit one day I want to go there by the Cunard Queen Mary 2.
I went a few weeks ago. They are lovely, and huge. I first went to New York 6 months after 9/11, so never saw the Twin Towers, and ground zero was obviously still all boarded up. The church near by still had all the sings up for missing people, which was very sad. But I digress, my point was that even though I knew the towers were big, I wasn't prepared for just how big the pools would be. It's a nice touch that they have the names of the people who died at the Pentagon and on Flight 77, on flight 93, and those who died in the 1993 WTC bombing as well.
If anyone is going to NYC, I would recommend the musem. Saying I found it enjoyable seems wrong, but I did. It was extremely interesting and very touching.
It's weird to think it will be 14 years next month since 9/11. Anyone under 20 will probably not remember it.
My concern is that their first knowledge of it will be from the internet and regardless of one's standpoint, I would hope that educational standards do not drop to the point where people can no longer discern fact from fiction - admittedly I can understand the problem when faced with an environment with limited ways of determining any kind of 'value' weighting.
(though I'd suggest a different thread may be more suitable for the 'details' side relating to the above...)
I've been to the site (the museum was not open at the time) and its a very quiet peaceful place to respect those who died.
Of course 3000 lives lost in any circumstance is high but at the same time it could have been higher. The reactions of those there and the emergency services, I think prevents more dying due to the evacuations.
I watched a show about those in the towers above the impact zone. I cannot imagine what they went through, being trapped in a hot, smoky burning building knowing there's no chance of living.
RIP those who died that day and died because of it
Yes they was speculation at the time of the events just like every event where the news has nothing to go on and so play 'Let's just guess', but also don't forget that EVERYONE at the time imagined that they were going to dig in the pile and pull out 1000s of people. That just didn't happen: hardly any full bodies were recovered and in some cases only tiny fractions of a body part were found and only identified through DNA.
So at the time no one knew anything about the numbers but they became more clear as the days/weeks went on.
At only 13 you probably were not paying the attention the rest of us were and that is fully understandable.
There are also people who have died since, with health conditions caused by that day, so the toll would be higher were that taken into account. Awful, awful event.
Yes indeed. Even people who were not involved in the actual event but merely worked on the pile searching have had increases in cancers, yet at the time they kept saying that the fumes coming up from the still burning pile were safe.
I read that a guy selling food from a cart outside one of the towers was killed.
Firefighters were also killed outside before the collapse of any towers by falling debris and people! They tend to have played that fact down a bit as it opens up a can of worms.
Yes indeed. Even people who were not involved in the actual event but merely worked on the pile searching have had increases in cancers, yet at the time they kept saying that the fumes coming up from the still burning pile were safe.
Being slightly pedantic, the fumes probably were reasonable safe.
It is the stuff like the particulates in the air from the concrete dust, asbestos dust and a host of other materials that were in use but crushed that are likely the more dangerous, and IIRC harder to detect on site (there are various man portable gas meters that can be used for harmful levels of fumes as they're often needed in industry and mining, IIRC checks for most of the dusts are harder*).
It's one of the reasons it's so important if you're working around any hazardous materials to make sure you're using the right type of mask, as you get them for gas, particulates, or both.
In the aftermath of 911, looking back in hindsight pretty much everyone remotely involved in the rescue or clean up should have at the minimum been using a properly fitted fine particulate mask (and probably portable showers/disposable outers).
Unfortunately whilst the likes of the workers on the main site were at least likely to have had some protection, from what I've read a lot of the companies that sprung up/turned out to clean the likes of surrounding areas, commercial properties and worse, residential properties of the dust often didn't even offer their staff any protective respiratory gear.
This is one area where I suspect the authorities played down the risks to prevent mass panic and evacuation of the city, as if people realised how much nasty dust was in the are and the sorts of effects it could have on their long term health, I suspect that many of the better off would simply have left until the clean up was complete (and the clean up crews would have demanded better pay and equipment).
*But it should have been pretty obvious that in a building like the WTC you would be dealing with many of the hazards common in buildings of it's age when doing renovations.
It's sad and it is a large number of people.
I think the OP is alluding to the disproportionate attention it got because the victims were largely
- Americans
- Americans in America at the time
- the right sort of Americans i.e affluent and middle class
It's sad and it is a large number of people.
I think the OP is alluding to the disproportionate attention it got because the victims were largely
- Americans
- Americans in America at the time
- the right sort of Americans i.e affluent and middle class
Also it happened on telly, and at the time nobody knew it was "only" 3000...
I got talking to a couple from New York when I was in America, the gentleman was a fireman, but was actually working at a desk. On the 11th he got stuck in traffic and was late for work. When he arrived his station had already gone to the towers, so he jumped back in his car and made his own way there. Both engine crews from his station were killed. His wife was telling me this, as he still doesn't talk much about it. And she admitted that she was glad he was delayed as in her words "the silly bugger would of jumped on the engine with his mates".
Being slightly pedantic, the fumes probably were reasonable safe.
It is the stuff like the particulates in the air from the concrete dust, asbestos dust and a host of other materials that were in use but crushed that are likely the more dangerous, and IIRC harder to detect on site (there are various man portable gas meters that can be used for harmful levels of fumes as they're often needed in industry and mining, IIRC checks for most of the dusts are harder*).
It's one of the reasons it's so important if you're working around any hazardous materials to make sure you're using the right type of mask, as you get them for gas, particulates, or both.
In the aftermath of 911, looking back in hindsight pretty much everyone remotely involved in the rescue or clean up should have at the minimum been using a properly fitted fine particulate mask (and probably portable showers/disposable outers).
Unfortunately whilst the likes of the workers on the main site were at least likely to have had some protection, from what I've read a lot of the companies that sprung up/turned out to clean the likes of surrounding areas, commercial properties and worse, residential properties of the dust often didn't even offer their staff any protective respiratory gear.
This is one area where I suspect the authorities played down the risks to prevent mass panic and evacuation of the city, as if people realised how much nasty dust was in the are and the sorts of effects it could have on their long term health, I suspect that many of the better off would simply have left until the clean up was complete (and the clean up crews would have demanded better pay and equipment).
*But it should have been pretty obvious that in a building like the WTC you would be dealing with many of the hazards common in buildings of it's age when doing renovations.
In fact people working directly on the pile were mostly just given those paper dust masks the type you use for decorating. Totally not fit for purpose. People has said that they very quickly got clogged and discarded and no replacement worn.
It's sad and it is a large number of people.
I think the OP is alluding to the disproportionate attention it got because the victims were largely
- Americans
- Americans in America at the time
- the right sort of Americans i.e affluent and middle class
But it wasn't just a matter of numbers of people killed, whether gross speculation at the time or factual numbers afterwards, it was the fact that America had been attacked directly in it's own country and in the most dramatic way possible. Not as a joke and in no way condoning it, but if you are a terrorist and want something big then they simply could have not done it any better. It wasn't just terrorism, it was being attacked on their own soil and the dramatic and total destruction of the towers as well.
The one thing I remember thinking at the time was "Oh shit! This is the big one!" I was sure that this would spark WWIII. Thinking about it now is not the same as the feeling I was getting on the actual day and the mood of the world on that occasion. It was total disbelief.
I went a few weeks ago. They are lovely, and huge. I first went to New York 6 months after 9/11, so never saw the Twin Towers, and ground zero was obviously still all boarded up. The church near by still had all the sings up for missing people, which was very sad. But I digress, my point was that even though I knew the towers were big, I wasn't prepared for just how big the pools would be. It's a nice touch that they have the names of the people who died at the Pentagon and on Flight 77, on flight 93, and those who died in the 1993 WTC bombing as well.
If anyone is going to NYC, I would recommend the musem. Saying I found it enjoyable seems wrong, but I did. It was extremely interesting and very touching.
Totally agree with this. The pools are understated but impressive.
The museum is also very well thought out and presented.
There is a small section which covers people who jumped which although a necessary inclusion is terribly upsetting.
When the towers collapsed, they didn't just kill the people inside. Especially the first collapse as it was totally unexpected and unprecedented as no-one even considered that this would be a possibility (on some of the programs about the 911 attacks you can see the moment when it begins to buckle - same with the second collapse; from then on, what happens is inevitable).
There were tons of emegency workers (firemen and police and medics) working outside the towers, helping people out, setting up first aid stations etc. They had no time to move away from the tons and tons of rubble that fell directly on top of them.
The second tower collapse was less unexpected as they realised now what could happen and started trying to move people out. But even so, communication within the towers was sporadic at best and between the police and firemen non-existent, because they had differing radio frequencies. Which meant that although some of the police may have got out because they were advised to do so, the same message did not necessarily get through to the firemen and vice versa.
Apart from that, of course, many of these rescuers (and those trying to flee) were too high up in order to get down quickly enough. That's a lot of floors in often dire conditions to try to negotiate; admittedly all downhill, but with crowds and crowds of people trying to get out it was a slow process downwards. And in Tower 2 (the first one to collapse), although many people had made up their minds and got out after the first plane hit, many more had either stayed, because either they didn't know what had happened (bearing in mind that they couldn't see what was happening from where they were) or that once they learned of events, they didn't believe that it would also happen to them (who would?). And there were those who were told by others that it was perfectly safe and that they should return.
There's a very good book called '102 minutes' that details the events of the towers and the sequence in which things happened. It's traumatic reading obviously and only focuses on a few people (about 100 or so?) but it's well worth looking at.
But it wasn't just a matter of numbers of people killed, whether gross speculation at the time or factual numbers afterwards, it was the fact that America had been attacked directly in it's own country and in the most dramatic way possible. Not as a joke and in no way condoning it, but if you are a terrorist and want something big then they simply could have not done it any better. It wasn't just terrorism, it was being attacked on their own soil and the dramatic and total destruction of the towers as well.
Yes you are spot-on there.
The dramatic nature of the attack was a huge factor.
I was only 10 when this happened and while I remember it at the time I obviously didn't understand it. I'm glad I was young while it happened but without wanting to sound weird I will never truly understand the shock and fear that people felt when this was happening.
Over the past couple of years I've watched a lot of documentaries on it and read a lot about it. The documentary 102 Minutes That Changed America is a really interesting watch. I think that's the one anyway it has no narrator just amateur footage showing it as it happened. No matter how many times I watch or read about it it seems to get more shocking and unbelievable each time
I'd love to go to New York one day and visit the memorial it looks beautiful.
3000 lives may not seem like a lot to you but you think, 3000 families affected, the families friends, it affects 1000000s of people. The fact it wasn't an accident either and was caused by other human beings makes it such an awful tragedy.
When the towers collapsed, they didn't just kill the people inside. Especially the first collapse as it was totally unexpected and unprecedented as no-one even considered that this would be a possibility (on some of the programs about the 911 attacks you can see the moment when it begins to buckle - same with the second collapse; from then on, what happens is inevitable).
There were tons of emegency workers (firemen and police and medics) working outside the towers, helping people out, setting up first aid stations etc. They had no time to move away from the tons and tons of rubble that fell directly on top of them.
The second tower collapse was less unexpected as they realised now what could happen and started trying to move people out. But even so, communication within the towers was sporadic at best and between the police and firemen non-existent, because they had differing radio frequencies. Which meant that although some of the police may have got out because they were advised to do so, the same message did not necessarily get through to the firemen and vice versa.
Apart from that, of course, many of these rescuers (and those trying to flee) were too high up in order to get down quickly enough. That's a lot of floors in often dire conditions to try to negotiate; admittedly all downhill, but with crowds and crowds of people trying to get out it was a slow process downwards. And in Tower 2 (the first one to collapse), although many people had made up their minds and got out after the first plane hit, many more had either stayed, because either they didn't know what had happened (bearing in mind that they couldn't see what was happening from where they were) or that once they learned of events, they didn't believe that it would also happen to them (who would?). And there were those who were told by others that it was perfectly safe and that they should return.
There's a very good book called '102 minutes' that details the events of the towers and the sequence in which things happened. It's traumatic reading obviously and only focuses on a few people (about 100 or so?) but it's well worth looking at.
Yes, no one was expecting the first (or any) total collapse as firefighters were still on their way up both towers when the first (South) tower collapsed. The first thing they did after that was sound the evacuation of the remaining (North) tower and many did get out in time, whilst others didn't as they were to far up.
Comments
The company I work for used to be part of AT&T and colleagues of mine know the guys who monitored the incoming satellite feeds for the TV networks. A lot of the footage was completely unbroadcastable and very, very, harrowing.
A lot of those trapped above where the planes hit very quickly realised they were doomed and chose to jump.
I went a few weeks ago. They are lovely, and huge. I first went to New York 6 months after 9/11, so never saw the Twin Towers, and ground zero was obviously still all boarded up. The church near by still had all the sings up for missing people, which was very sad. But I digress, my point was that even though I knew the towers were big, I wasn't prepared for just how big the pools would be. It's a nice touch that they have the names of the people who died at the Pentagon and on Flight 77, on flight 93, and those who died in the 1993 WTC bombing as well.
If anyone is going to NYC, I would recommend the musem. Saying I found it enjoyable seems wrong, but I did. It was extremely interesting and very touching.
(though I'd suggest a different thread may be more suitable for the 'details' side relating to the above...)
Of course 3000 lives lost in any circumstance is high but at the same time it could have been higher. The reactions of those there and the emergency services, I think prevents more dying due to the evacuations.
I watched a show about those in the towers above the impact zone. I cannot imagine what they went through, being trapped in a hot, smoky burning building knowing there's no chance of living.
RIP those who died that day and died because of it
343 to be exact.
Yes they was speculation at the time of the events just like every event where the news has nothing to go on and so play 'Let's just guess', but also don't forget that EVERYONE at the time imagined that they were going to dig in the pile and pull out 1000s of people. That just didn't happen: hardly any full bodies were recovered and in some cases only tiny fractions of a body part were found and only identified through DNA.
So at the time no one knew anything about the numbers but they became more clear as the days/weeks went on.
At only 13 you probably were not paying the attention the rest of us were and that is fully understandable.
Yes indeed. Even people who were not involved in the actual event but merely worked on the pile searching have had increases in cancers, yet at the time they kept saying that the fumes coming up from the still burning pile were safe.
Firefighters were also killed outside before the collapse of any towers by falling debris and people! They tend to have played that fact down a bit as it opens up a can of worms.
Although, with the pollutants and asbestos they would have inhaled, expect many future fatalities to be attributed to this disaster.
https://youtu.be/Pp2SC_aduTA
Being slightly pedantic, the fumes probably were reasonable safe.
It is the stuff like the particulates in the air from the concrete dust, asbestos dust and a host of other materials that were in use but crushed that are likely the more dangerous, and IIRC harder to detect on site (there are various man portable gas meters that can be used for harmful levels of fumes as they're often needed in industry and mining, IIRC checks for most of the dusts are harder*).
It's one of the reasons it's so important if you're working around any hazardous materials to make sure you're using the right type of mask, as you get them for gas, particulates, or both.
In the aftermath of 911, looking back in hindsight pretty much everyone remotely involved in the rescue or clean up should have at the minimum been using a properly fitted fine particulate mask (and probably portable showers/disposable outers).
Unfortunately whilst the likes of the workers on the main site were at least likely to have had some protection, from what I've read a lot of the companies that sprung up/turned out to clean the likes of surrounding areas, commercial properties and worse, residential properties of the dust often didn't even offer their staff any protective respiratory gear.
This is one area where I suspect the authorities played down the risks to prevent mass panic and evacuation of the city, as if people realised how much nasty dust was in the are and the sorts of effects it could have on their long term health, I suspect that many of the better off would simply have left until the clean up was complete (and the clean up crews would have demanded better pay and equipment).
*But it should have been pretty obvious that in a building like the WTC you would be dealing with many of the hazards common in buildings of it's age when doing renovations.
I think the OP is alluding to the disproportionate attention it got because the victims were largely
- Americans
- Americans in America at the time
- the right sort of Americans i.e affluent and middle class
Also it happened on telly, and at the time nobody knew it was "only" 3000...
In fact people working directly on the pile were mostly just given those paper dust masks the type you use for decorating. Totally not fit for purpose. People has said that they very quickly got clogged and discarded and no replacement worn.
But it wasn't just a matter of numbers of people killed, whether gross speculation at the time or factual numbers afterwards, it was the fact that America had been attacked directly in it's own country and in the most dramatic way possible. Not as a joke and in no way condoning it, but if you are a terrorist and want something big then they simply could have not done it any better. It wasn't just terrorism, it was being attacked on their own soil and the dramatic and total destruction of the towers as well.
The one thing I remember thinking at the time was "Oh shit! This is the big one!" I was sure that this would spark WWIII. Thinking about it now is not the same as the feeling I was getting on the actual day and the mood of the world on that occasion. It was total disbelief.
Totally agree with this. The pools are understated but impressive.
The museum is also very well thought out and presented.
There is a small section which covers people who jumped which although a necessary inclusion is terribly upsetting.
There were tons of emegency workers (firemen and police and medics) working outside the towers, helping people out, setting up first aid stations etc. They had no time to move away from the tons and tons of rubble that fell directly on top of them.
The second tower collapse was less unexpected as they realised now what could happen and started trying to move people out. But even so, communication within the towers was sporadic at best and between the police and firemen non-existent, because they had differing radio frequencies. Which meant that although some of the police may have got out because they were advised to do so, the same message did not necessarily get through to the firemen and vice versa.
Apart from that, of course, many of these rescuers (and those trying to flee) were too high up in order to get down quickly enough. That's a lot of floors in often dire conditions to try to negotiate; admittedly all downhill, but with crowds and crowds of people trying to get out it was a slow process downwards. And in Tower 2 (the first one to collapse), although many people had made up their minds and got out after the first plane hit, many more had either stayed, because either they didn't know what had happened (bearing in mind that they couldn't see what was happening from where they were) or that once they learned of events, they didn't believe that it would also happen to them (who would?). And there were those who were told by others that it was perfectly safe and that they should return.
There's a very good book called '102 minutes' that details the events of the towers and the sequence in which things happened. It's traumatic reading obviously and only focuses on a few people (about 100 or so?) but it's well worth looking at.
Yes you are spot-on there.
The dramatic nature of the attack was a huge factor.
Over the past couple of years I've watched a lot of documentaries on it and read a lot about it. The documentary 102 Minutes That Changed America is a really interesting watch. I think that's the one anyway it has no narrator just amateur footage showing it as it happened. No matter how many times I watch or read about it it seems to get more shocking and unbelievable each time
I'd love to go to New York one day and visit the memorial it looks beautiful.
The way they did it too
Yes, no one was expecting the first (or any) total collapse as firefighters were still on their way up both towers when the first (South) tower collapsed. The first thing they did after that was sound the evacuation of the remaining (North) tower and many did get out in time, whilst others didn't as they were to far up.