No problem, I admit (for example) that Israel "over pressed" it's advantage in the present conflict. The "targeted" rocket attackers should no have stopped a week before they did. The point was made and the conflict was won. Every subsequent rocket was (I think) pointless and destructive, of both the Gazan population and Israel's international standing.
I'd also much prefer a government led by someone other than Bibi but as I've said, on numerous occasions, it's a government of war, This is what they do, win wars. To win the peace, there has to be a partner. Hams isn't it.
But they don't, all that will happen is that the status quo will be restored. As for partners - there are 4 million Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza and 1.5 million Arab Israelis. Why not be partners with them, bypass Hamas, make them irrelevant. All Israel's current policy will lead to is someone like ISIS replacing Hamas as Hamas replaced the PLO. Do you really want that?
The trouble with you is that you can't see past the religion, the "Jewishness" of the state, because of your left wing political views.
That's fine, I'm no great fan of religious government either (although Israel's is really secular as you know) but I don't think anything you've ever posted suggests you WANT Israel to exist.
They may be secular but they don't act secular. They continually talk of the Jewish State, they continually equate Jew and Israel, Israeli ministers have called for the expulsion of all non-Jews from Israel, Israeli law is biased toward Jews - especially if they are ultra-Orthodox. Even the National Anthem refers to Jews and alludes to Zionism. And don't forget the Israeli flag itself.
For a secular state it looks awfully religious based
What you fail to accept is that ISIS, and various terrorist factions around the world, are lawless thugs acting in their own warped interests. They are not like Israel, which is a democratically and recognised state by the world. That makes what Israel does official. ISIS and the likes are acting for nobody but themselves.
There have been condemnation of ISIS but who would you boycott, lobby, criticise or protest against? It is not a recognised state or country, Israel purports to be but acts just as wantonly.
According to your conspiracy website links ISIS is the child of America and Saudi Arabia.
Maybe protesters could pitch up outside the Saudi embassy for a change, or do they only know their way to the Israeli embassy?
According to your conspiracy website links ISIS is the child of America and Saudi Arabia.
Maybe protesters could pitch up outside the Saudi embassy for a change, or do they only know their way to the Israeli embassy?
ISIS is a product of Saudi Arabia and Qatar, much like al-Qaeda before it. It certainly would not be surprising if the US is involved somehow given their reputation for backing anyone who is a current enemy of the US (and cocking it up)
The trouble with you is that you can't see past the religion, the "Jewishness" of the state, because of your left wing political views.
That's fine, I'm no great fan of religious government either (although Israel's is really secular as you know) but I don't think anything you've ever posted suggests you WANT Israel to exist.
Ergo, any solution you envisage, anything you might support, would (I think) anticipate an end to the current status quo.
And any outcome which doesn't anticipate and indeed guarantee Israel's continued right to exist, as such, will not find favour within Israel, or with me.
What breathless arrogance! You are saying you don't believe what I say.
How can anyone discuss anything sensibly with people like you?
It must be why Jordan, Qatar and Syria refuse them citizenship.
There has been Jewish families in Israel for 1000' of years and some communities never left despite being persecuted by Islam, Romans and other empi
Why is the West Bank and Gaza shunned by the Arab League who make sure people can't leave.
No, they did not live in Israel for 1000s of years. The state of Israel was created in 1948, and was populated by European jews.
Why should they accommodate Israel by granting Palestinians citizenship? Palestinians are refugees and have a right of return. I know this would solve all of Israel's problems if they would.
The Egyptian military government, as you well know, are nothing but American puppets. Puppets who are in the process of signing a huge gas deal with Israel.
ISIS is a product of Saudi Arabia and Qatar, much like al-Qaeda before it. It certainly would not be surprising if the US is involved somehow given their reputation for backing anyone who is a current enemy of the US (and cocking it up)
So where are the protesters?
Turkey is also complicit in that it allows Jihadists to slip back and forward through its borders.
That's another embassy the usual suspects could target.
They won't though and it begs the question, why?
What you fail to accept is that ISIS, and various terrorist factions around the world, are lawless thugs acting in their own warped interests. They are not like Israel, which is a democratically and recognised state by the world. That makes what Israel does official. ISIS and the likes are acting for nobody but themselves.
There have been condemnation of ISIS but who would you boycott, lobby, criticise or protest against? It is not a recognised state or country, Israel purports to be but acts just as wantonly.
O.K. then, let's talk about Syria, Pakistan, or many parts of Africa.
In any case, the official status of ISIS is irrelevant to this debate; what's important is that there are real "war crimes", real "executions", real "massacres" being perpetrated by this self appointed bunch of loons, also by Hamas and others.
And the silence on this forum is deafening.
The disproportionate level of opprobrium visited upon Israel is, in contrast, a legitimate concern, a legitimate indicator of the current level of anti semitism. That isn't my personal view, it's a statistic, I was reading the front cover of my local paper last week, which makes this very point.
So where are the protesters?
Turkey is also complicit in that it allows Jihadists to slip back and forward through its borders.
That's another embassy the usual suspects could target.
They won't though and it begs the question, why?
Do you know the difference between covert and overt?
Do you understand the difference between disparate groups of people and country's ruled and governed by recognised, and accepted. authorities?
They may be secular but they don't act secular. They continually talk of the Jewish State, they continually equate Jew and Israel, Israeli ministers have called for the expulsion of all non-Jews from Israel, Israeli law is biased toward Jews - especially if they are ultra-Orthodox. Even the National Anthem refers to Jews and alludes to Zionism. And don't forget the Israeli flag itself.
For a secular state it looks awfully religious based
It's a homeland for Jews, did you not read the memo?!
Would you prefer the Jewish homeland neglected to mention its origins?
That doesn't mean it has to be a religious government. It's never been that.
There are dippy left and right wing MP's there, as here. Some here have pretty unhealthy views on immigration. Does that make us all racist bigots?
O.K. then, let's talk about Syria, Pakistan, or many parts of Africa.
In any case, the official status of ISIS is irrelevant to this debate; what's important is that there are real "war crimes", real "executions", real "massacres" being perpetrated by this self appointed bunch of loons, also by Hamas and others.
And the silence on this forum is deafening.
The disproportionate level of opprobrium visited upon Israel is, in contrast, a legitimate concern, a legitimate indicator of the current level of anti semitism. That isn't my personal view, it's a statistic, I was reading the front cover of my local paper last week, which makes this very point.
You must be reading a different forum to this one then.
Condemnation of Islam, Muslims and ISIS is a regular feature on here, the first two for a long time on here. It even goes so far as to blame Muslims in this country for what goes on elsewhere, claims that Muslim's 'are trying to take over', that Islam is 'dangerous' and that parts of the country are 'under Sharia law'.
The west has waged war on Islamic countries for decades. They have propagated unrest and all for oil interests or protection of the western system of money. Russia is the latest victim in the propaganda war about who the enemy is. The media is full of justification for the west bringing 'peace and democracy' to the Middle East, one bomb at a time. The same is tried with Israel but they are attacking a tiny area, densely populated where people are unable to leave, just because they want the land. With the land comes the energy. (gas) No different to America and both being run by Zionists, it comes as no surprise.
It's that the world is waking up to, the internet, speed of information and freedom of that information has shone a light in to some very dark corners. That includes Israel's behaviour towards Palestinians.One hopes the light will help stop the atrocities.
No, they did not live in Israel for 1000s of years. The state of Israel was created in 1948, and was populated by European jews.
Why should they accommodate Israel by granting Palestinians citizenship? Palestinians are refugees and have a right of return. I know this would solve all of Israel's problems if they would.
The Egyptian military government, as you well know, are nothing but American puppets. Puppets who are in the process of signing a huge gas deal with Israel.
The point is that whether they are Jordan, West Bank or Gaza their all Palestinian. The Mandate which created Israel also created Jordan, Lebanon, Syria and Iraq so their all Palestinian.
The Arab League preventing citizenship is in effect preventing people in Gaza living it what the area knows as Palestine.
Sisi liberated Egypt from the Muslim Brotherhood which is also causing problems in Saudi and is anything put a puppet. What he wants in long term peace plan between Israel and Gaza but is been railroaded by Qatar.
Right of return is one thing but the Arabs states should be offering right of citizenship for a war they started.
You must be reading a different forum to this one then.
Condemnation of Islam, Muslims and ISIS is a regular feature on here, the first two for a long time on here. It even goes so far as to blame Muslims in this country for what goes on elsewhere, claims that Muslim's 'are trying to take over', that Islam is 'dangerous' and that parts of the country are 'under Sharia law'.
The west has waged war on Islamic countries for decades. They have propagated unrest and all for oil interests or protection of the western system of money. Russia is the latest victim in the propaganda war about who the enemy is. The media is full of justification for the west bringing 'peace and democracy' to the Middle East, one bomb at a time. The same is tried with Israel but they are attacking a tiny area, densely populated where people are unable to leave, just because they want the land. With the land comes the energy. (gas) No different to America and both being run by Zionists, it comes as no surprise.
It's that the world is waking up to, the internet, speed of information and freedom of that information has shone a light in to some very dark corners. That includes Israel's behaviour towards Palestinians.One hopes the light will help stop the atrocities.
I'm not talking about the anti immigration fruitcakes, I'm talking about the posters on this sub forum.
Thanks for reconfirming my sense of you, with the "America is run by Zionists" throwaway line, by the way....
Do you know the difference between covert and overt?
Do you understand the difference between disparate groups of people and country's ruled and governed by recognised, and accepted. authorities?
So protesters shouldn't target the embassies of the countries your conspiracy website
links identify as the backers of ISIS?
Surely, if they know so much about the region, or frequent such websites, they must be aware of Saudi/Qatar/Turkey funding of ISIS, whether it be through government or rich individuals .
Why aren't they protesting outside these embassies?
So protesters shouldn't target the embassies of the countries your conspiracy website
links identify as the backers of ISIS?
Surely, if they know so much about the region, or frequent such websites, they must be aware of Saudi/Qatar/Turkey funding of ISIS, whether it be through government or rich individuals .
Why aren't they protesting outside these embassies?
Obviously you don't know the answer to either question then...
The point is that whether they are Jordan, West Bank or Gaza their all Palestinian. The Mandate which created Israel also created Jordan, Lebanon, Syria and Iraq so their all Palestinian.
Wrong. Post-Ottoman there were several Mandates, the French administering Syria for example. Which was how the Assad family got their initial training and power base.
Turkey is also complicit in that it allows Jihadists to slip back and forward through its borders.
That's another embassy the usual suspects could target.
They won't though and it begs the question, why?
I asked networkbabe what she thought about Turkey a while back, but she presumably hadn't been told what to think so didn't respond. But like Egypt, may be showing signs it doesn't want to be a Western puppet. Which could be a shame for Incirlik
Surely, if they know so much about the region, or frequent such websites, they must be aware of Saudi/Qatar/Turkey funding of ISIS, whether it be through government or rich individuals.
Someone who knew about the region wouldn't try combining Hamas and ISIL, but Netanyahu did. Someone should advise him about the differences between Wahhabism and Salafism and thus who would likely be supporting Salafi extremists. Especially when IS's stated aim is to 'purify' the region with everyone converting to Salafism. Or else. And the name included all the Levant, which includes quite a few places who would naturally object to getting religion IS-style.
But they do seem serious and organised and have just raided another Syrian base. Hopefully the Syrians destroyed stuff based there, otherwise IS has more toys.
No problem, I admit (for example) that Israel "over pressed" it's advantage in the present conflict. The "targeted" rocket attackers should no have stopped a week before they did. The point was made and the conflict was won. Every subsequent rocket was (I think) pointless and destructive, of both the Gazan population and Israel's international standing.
I'd also much prefer a government led by someone other than Bibi but as I've said, on numerous occasions, it's a government of war, This is what they do, win wars. To win the peace, there has to be a partner. Hams isn't it.
Thanks for that.
These forums are usually a ping pong match of posts with few people willing to go beyond "my side is right and your side is wrong", whether the discussion is Israel/Gaza, Labour/Conservative, Climate Change/No Climate Change, etc.
I don't agree with many of your views, but I respect your honesty.
Comments
But they don't, all that will happen is that the status quo will be restored. As for partners - there are 4 million Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza and 1.5 million Arab Israelis. Why not be partners with them, bypass Hamas, make them irrelevant. All Israel's current policy will lead to is someone like ISIS replacing Hamas as Hamas replaced the PLO. Do you really want that?
No, it was a response to it printed on Saturday.
I missed the original article, as I was abroad.
For a secular state it looks awfully religious based
According to your conspiracy website links ISIS is the child of America and Saudi Arabia.
Maybe protesters could pitch up outside the Saudi embassy for a change, or do they only know their way to the Israeli embassy?
What breathless arrogance! You are saying you don't believe what I say.
How can anyone discuss anything sensibly with people like you?
No, they did not live in Israel for 1000s of years. The state of Israel was created in 1948, and was populated by European jews.
Why should they accommodate Israel by granting Palestinians citizenship? Palestinians are refugees and have a right of return. I know this would solve all of Israel's problems if they would.
The Egyptian military government, as you well know, are nothing but American puppets. Puppets who are in the process of signing a huge gas deal with Israel.
So where are the protesters?
Turkey is also complicit in that it allows Jihadists to slip back and forward through its borders.
That's another embassy the usual suspects could target.
They won't though and it begs the question, why?
O.K. then, let's talk about Syria, Pakistan, or many parts of Africa.
In any case, the official status of ISIS is irrelevant to this debate; what's important is that there are real "war crimes", real "executions", real "massacres" being perpetrated by this self appointed bunch of loons, also by Hamas and others.
And the silence on this forum is deafening.
The disproportionate level of opprobrium visited upon Israel is, in contrast, a legitimate concern, a legitimate indicator of the current level of anti semitism. That isn't my personal view, it's a statistic, I was reading the front cover of my local paper last week, which makes this very point.
A new winner.
Heh.
I honestly like your style, GGP.
But really, given your last comment on my thoughts, being:-
"The trouble with you is that you see hidden agendas and lurking anti-Semitism everywhere"
I have to call this bullshit, as in pot. Kettle. Black.
;-)
Do you know the difference between covert and overt?
Do you understand the difference between disparate groups of people and country's ruled and governed by recognised, and accepted. authorities?
It's a homeland for Jews, did you not read the memo?!
Would you prefer the Jewish homeland neglected to mention its origins?
That doesn't mean it has to be a religious government. It's never been that.
There are dippy left and right wing MP's there, as here. Some here have pretty unhealthy views on immigration. Does that make us all racist bigots?
Most peculiar.
You must be reading a different forum to this one then.
Condemnation of Islam, Muslims and ISIS is a regular feature on here, the first two for a long time on here. It even goes so far as to blame Muslims in this country for what goes on elsewhere, claims that Muslim's 'are trying to take over', that Islam is 'dangerous' and that parts of the country are 'under Sharia law'.
The west has waged war on Islamic countries for decades. They have propagated unrest and all for oil interests or protection of the western system of money. Russia is the latest victim in the propaganda war about who the enemy is. The media is full of justification for the west bringing 'peace and democracy' to the Middle East, one bomb at a time. The same is tried with Israel but they are attacking a tiny area, densely populated where people are unable to leave, just because they want the land. With the land comes the energy. (gas) No different to America and both being run by Zionists, it comes as no surprise.
It's that the world is waking up to, the internet, speed of information and freedom of that information has shone a light in to some very dark corners. That includes Israel's behaviour towards Palestinians.One hopes the light will help stop the atrocities.
Whatever thats supposed to mean?
You're not going by 1,000+ people answering a survey as representing the British public are you? Certainly doesn't represent me.
The point is that whether they are Jordan, West Bank or Gaza their all Palestinian. The Mandate which created Israel also created Jordan, Lebanon, Syria and Iraq so their all Palestinian.
The Arab League preventing citizenship is in effect preventing people in Gaza living it what the area knows as Palestine.
Sisi liberated Egypt from the Muslim Brotherhood which is also causing problems in Saudi and is anything put a puppet. What he wants in long term peace plan between Israel and Gaza but is been railroaded by Qatar.
Right of return is one thing but the Arabs states should be offering right of citizenship for a war they started.
I'm not talking about the anti immigration fruitcakes, I'm talking about the posters on this sub forum.
Thanks for reconfirming my sense of you, with the "America is run by Zionists" throwaway line, by the way....
So protesters shouldn't target the embassies of the countries your conspiracy website
links identify as the backers of ISIS?
Surely, if they know so much about the region, or frequent such websites, they must be aware of Saudi/Qatar/Turkey funding of ISIS, whether it be through government or rich individuals .
Why aren't they protesting outside these embassies?
Obviously you don't know the answer to either question then...
Wrong. Post-Ottoman there were several Mandates, the French administering Syria for example. Which was how the Assad family got their initial training and power base.
Neither do you otherwise you would have answered..
I asked networkbabe what she thought about Turkey a while back, but she presumably hadn't been told what to think so didn't respond. But like Egypt, may be showing signs it doesn't want to be a Western puppet. Which could be a shame for Incirlik
Someone who knew about the region wouldn't try combining Hamas and ISIL, but Netanyahu did. Someone should advise him about the differences between Wahhabism and Salafism and thus who would likely be supporting Salafi extremists. Especially when IS's stated aim is to 'purify' the region with everyone converting to Salafism. Or else. And the name included all the Levant, which includes quite a few places who would naturally object to getting religion IS-style.
But they do seem serious and organised and have just raided another Syrian base. Hopefully the Syrians destroyed stuff based there, otherwise IS has more toys.
Thanks for that.
These forums are usually a ping pong match of posts with few people willing to go beyond "my side is right and your side is wrong", whether the discussion is Israel/Gaza, Labour/Conservative, Climate Change/No Climate Change, etc.
I don't agree with many of your views, but I respect your honesty.