What is the point of Israel attacking Gaza?

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  • smudges dadsmudges dad Posts: 36,989
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    Ethel_Fred wrote: »
    The attacks didn't stop them - and it's certain the attacks are causing more rockets to be fired. So explain how killing children or blowing up buildings makes Israel safer in the future?
    And my prediction for the next person to be called a troll and put on the ignore list is...
  • SULLASULLA Posts: 149,789
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    Ethel_Fred wrote: »
    Less than 70 years, not 400 years

    Wrong. The Empire was at it's height between the 2 world wars.
  • Ethel_FredEthel_Fred Posts: 34,127
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    And my prediction for the next person to be called a troll and put on the ignore list is...
    I've been called worse
  • StykerStyker Posts: 49,548
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    Why isn't there international observers in both Gaza and the West Bank to verify who is starting the trouble as and when they happen?

    Surely there should have been observers there ages ago and they should go in still and investigate any wrong doing/accusations on either side.
  • GreatGodPanGreatGodPan Posts: 53,186
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    Beanybun wrote: »
    You guys are hilarious.

    Anyone who turns up on this thread and runs a contrary, reasoned argument to your own is immediately branded a "Zionist", pupppet of the "Zionist state" and ignored. You haven't once properly engaged with the points which "JG" has made, other than to call him out as a "sock puppet".

    Now, I'm prepared to accept he has an agenda and only arrived here when these multiple anti Israeli threads which you're so fond of began to pop up. But even assuming he's a pro Israeli activist, why not engage with him? He's engaged with the (various) pro Palestiian activists who most certainly post here.

    Or are you scared certain of your tired old arguments/libels will be found out?

    Neither side has a monopoly on the truth.

    You think people haven't tried? He comes out with quite ridiculous stuff and when you argue with him he calls you a troll and ignores you!
  • thenetworkbabethenetworkbabe Posts: 45,554
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    Styker wrote: »
    I remember Israel objecting to observers or even guards being at the Rafah crossing and I think Israeli guards or those international guards confiscated cash the Hamas PM got from Saudi Arabia on his way back into Gaza. They weren't there for long either.

    We need observers and international troops to investigate who starts the troubles as both sides always blame each other for starting trouble and how is the outside world supposed to know for sure without UN or international observers?

    There are no international observers who are all of competent, uncorruptible, neutral, trusted by both sides and willing to take casualties. The US and Europeans won't do it because they experienced being bombed in lebanon back in the eighties when they tried there . The UN force now on the Golan decamped from the border as soon as one of the sides in the Syrian civil war fired a shot at them . The UN force now in Lebanon was meant to disarm Hizbollah , but its not even allowed to enter the villages where Hizbollah stores its rockets. in 2006 there were Hizbollah bunkers found under UN bases. The locals know all this history and are not prepared to let anyone else be responsible for their security, and no western leader is going to let his troops come continually home in bodybags trying to police it all.

    There is no doubt who started this round, and its got everything to do with Hamas needing some sort of victory to build its declining support . and trying to pressurise Israel to get Fatah and Egypt to stop their efforts to strangle Hamas by denying it any money. They tried the kidnapping, and then the rocket fire, but it seems to have gone further than they expected.

    The problem this time is Hamas needs to be able to declare vistory to call a ceasefire . But Egypt isn't going to open its border and Israel isn't going to allow strategically useful goods into gaza, and Israel won't release Hamas prisoners until it gets the two Hamas operatives who killed the 3 Israeli boys. The more successful Israel is at defending itself, the more difficult it is for Hamas to stop firing rockets.
  • Ethel_FredEthel_Fred Posts: 34,127
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    There is no doubt who started this round, and its got everything to do with Hamas needing some sort of victory to build its declining support
    Victory is increased support both in Gaza and on the West Bank - which is what Israel is giving them and gave them the last few times this sort of thing happened. Hamas are strong only as long Israel keeps attacking Palestinians whether it's an all out war or the normal day to day harrassment

    So why does Israel keep giving Hamas what it wants? Every dead Palestinian and Israeli is a victory for Hamas, every injured Palestinian and Israeli is a victory for Hamas, every arrest of a Palestinian by Israel is a victory for Hamas, every Palestinian forced to wait for hours at a crossing point by Israel is a victory for Hamas - and every dead or injured Israeli is a defeat for Israel.
  • thenetworkbabethenetworkbabe Posts: 45,554
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    Looks like this may be starting a new phase.

    Hamas hasn't got any victory it can possibly claim. Its launched 450 or so rockets with nothing achieved, launched two lots of swimmer terrorists over the border only for both attacks to turn into suicide missions with nothing gained. A bomber heading West has been detained on the West Bank . Its stock of long range missiles must be running low- given whats been fired and some of the secondary explosions in Gaza when the Israelis have hit its munitions stores on youtubes.

    The Israeli airforce may soon runout of targets its allowed to hit . Hamas is building the media picture of innocent civilans dying, and its notable that most of the reported civilan casualties came from attacks on Hamas leaders - one where the family responded to a warning by returning to the house and heading for the roof, and one where a senior commander of the Hamas missile force decided to surround himself with his family. The danger is that Hamas will just deploy more and more human shields around its leaders and rockets, so that it gets a propaganda win out of otherwise successful Israeli strikes . The longer it goes on the more likely too there will be mistakes, and accidents - like possibly. the football fans.

    Thats where a ground offensive comes in. Hamas reportedly has its main rocket stores, and its leadership bunkers, in the most heavily populated areas . You can really go and bomb the rocket storage bunkers under the main Gaza hospital . So the next option is to send troops in to destroy them, or to send troops in and kill enough Hamas fighters to make them ceasefire. But thats not a great option either. Hamas will claim a cvictory even if it loses people at twenty to one . Fighting in a built up area will cause massive destruction. Fighting in relatively non built up areas, as in 2008, will just let Hamas run back into the heavily built up areas and leave its rocket stores intact.

    Hamas wants to stop what its started judging from its ceasefire offer, but can't be seen to give up so it asks for the impossible. . Its leaders don't think Netanyahu will invade, and many are safe in those bunkers under civilian targets. .so it doesn't respond to that threat. Some Hamas want Netanyahu to invade - as it will be their only chance of declaring a victory regardless. Hamas is a dead duck if it can't get its access to money back and is seen to be defeated. The Israeli government has to stop the rockets , and stop this happening every few years. It would like to get rid of Hamas, but fears soemthing worse. Egypt would be keen to see the back of Hamas and won't negotiate with them - so there's not even anyone to work for a ceasefire.

    As situations go, its about as intractable as they get.
  • Ethel_FredEthel_Fred Posts: 34,127
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    Hamas hasn't got any victory it can possibly claim.

    Hamas is building the media picture of innocent civilans dying
    Dead children ARE Hamas's victory.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 2,115
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    If I hadn't seen posts from earlier, I would say that this must be a parody account as no one could be blinded to reality as much as this poster. If he really believes all this anti Palestinian stuff and is really so blinded on the side of Israel, then world is truly in a terrible state.

    Probably paid to write this stuff – they've been posting nonstop all day.
  • Fappy_McFapperFappy_McFapper Posts: 1,302
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    Probably paid to write this stuff – they've been posting nonstop all day.

    Reminds me of that story about Moscow having an actual online troll division that runs around comments sections and forums to counter act any negative news.

    I wouldn't be surprised by anything at this point.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 2,115
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    Reminds me of that story about Moscow having an actual online troll division that runs around comments sections and forums to counter act any negative news.

    I wouldn't be surprised by anything at this point.

    Internet users paid to spread Israeli propaganda
  • thenetworkbabethenetworkbabe Posts: 45,554
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    Ethel_Fred wrote: »
    Your problem is that you don't read what people write, you have this script that equates criticism of Israel as support for it's enemies, I have never supported Hamas let alone being an apologist for them.

    My position on Israel has been consistent ever since I joined this forum - don't help your enemies, make them irrelevant, create a defence system so that rockets are a minor inconvenience (yes even before Iron Dome was thought of)

    So why does Israel keep playing into the hands of it's enemies, a cynic would suggest that certain groups within Israel need weak enemies in order to maintain their own control of Israel. Or do you think insanity or stupidity is a more likely explanation?

    Certainly the actions of Israel currently - and for the past 20 years or so - suggest that either they are incapable of learning or they want people trying to kill Israelis

    Rockets are never going to be a minor inconvenience. No missile defence system is 100% effective. Up till now missile defences have only ever served to make targetting more difficult - because the power doing the targetting has to allow for some percentages of his targets being successfully defended. Iron Dome is the first system ever intended to protect civilans. Iron Dome is very effective, but nearer 90% than 100% percent effective. it doesn't cover all of Israel and Hamas now has longer ranged syrian and Iranian missiles that can land anwhere in 2/3rds of Israel. Iron Dome doesn't shoot down all rocket types, either Hamas also keeps on trying new ways to try and overloand it - by firing more rockets faster at some targets to saturate the defences. Nor is there time to wait until you know whats going to be shot down before sounding the air raid sirens and sending everyone running to cover.

    As no one knows where the incoming rocket will land, the 80% that were not going to land in built up areas are not engaged and can fall on someone who lives in a non built up area, and no one knows which rocket will be intercepted and which won't, you have to react to every attack by running to the shelters. You would still have to send everyone to the shelters if your system was effective 99% of the time. No state is going to tolerate half its population continually running to the shelters - and steady casualties from near misses, stress, and the odd hit.., Any state is going to do precisely what Israel is doing - most would have flattened all of Gaza years ago. You might as well suggest that Britain shouldn't have bothered about the V1 threat in 1944 - because most of them were being shot down, they only killed a few people, and most of the country was out of range.

    Your last premise is also strange. The people who don't want Israel to be there and who want to set the clock back to 1948, are not at all influenced by anything Israel has done in the last 20, 30 or 60 years. The post 1948 history is irrelevant - they just don't want it there. Successive generations have set out to try and achieve the impossible, but thats largely because they are following in the footsteps of the previous generation, who have passed down the belief that the impossible is possible, that pointless struggling is a good thing to do, and every major defeat was actually a victory.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 2,115
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    Mind you, if a certain person is getting paid, I think they should ask for their money back! :D
  • warlordwarlord Posts: 3,292
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    Ethel_Fred wrote: »
    Your problem is that you don't read what people write, you have this script that equates criticism of Israel as support for it's enemies, I have never supported Hamas let alone being an apologist for them.

    The problem is you seem incapable of seeing Hamas as it is. It is an Islamist organization with genocidal ambitions, just like Boko Haram and ISIS.
    My position on Israel has been consistent ever since I joined this forum - don't help your enemies, make them irrelevant, create a defence system so that rockets are a minor inconvenience (yes even before Iron Dome was thought of)
    It is not possible to make your enemies irrelevant. If someone assaults you in the street, how would you make them irrelevant?
    It is not possible to make rockets a minor inconvenience, either.

    So why does Israel keep playing into the hands of it's enemies, a cynic would suggest that certain groups within Israel need weak enemies in order to maintain their own control of Israel. Or do you think insanity or stupidity is a more likely explanation?

    Certainly the actions of Israel currently - and for the past 20 years or so - suggest that either they are incapable of learning or they want people trying to kill Israelis

    Israel has survived despite the obsessive hostility of the Arabs, the USSR and the Western lefties. It has "played into the hands" of its enemies by repeatedly smashing their military hardware. Said enemies have always been able to recover because Israel has always been persuaded to stop as soon as the immediate threat was dealt with. It is common knowledge that Iran has supplied Hezbollah and Hamas in recent years; If you really want peace, the obvious solution is for Israel to wreck the Iranian economy as well as destroying targets in Gaza.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 2,115
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    Ethel_Fred wrote: »
    No, I wasn't, just pointing out that "indigenous" (which in case you don't know is commonly used by extreme right wing thugs) isn't the correct term to apply to Jews in Gaza as there were people there beforehand and most Jews in Gaza came there after 1967.

    I'm guessing he won't reply to that as he hasn't got an answer. Nor has he replied yet to my point about land ownership.
  • smudges dadsmudges dad Posts: 36,989
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    warlord wrote: »
    The problem is you seem incapable of seeing Hamas as it is. It is an Islamist organization with genocidal ambitions, just like Boko Haram and ISIS.

    It is not possible to make your enemies irrelevant. If someone assaults you in the street, how would you make them irrelevant?
    It is not possible to make rockets a minor inconvenience, either.


    Israel has survived despite the obsessive hostility of the Arabs, the USSR and the Western lefties. It has "played into the hands" of its enemies by repeatedly smashing their military hardware. Said enemies have always been able to recover because Israel has always been persuaded to stop as soon as the immediate threat was dealt with. It is common knowledge that Iran has supplied Hezbollah and Hamas in recent years; If you really want peace, the obvious solution is for Israel to wreck the Iranian economy as well as destroying targets in Gaza.

    It's equally a problem that many people don't see Israel as a terrorist state, created through terrorism, that discriminates against a large proportion of its population and continues to grab land from other people, whilst preventing development for the people they threw out of their homes when they grabbed the land in the first place.
  • lemoncurdlemoncurd Posts: 57,778
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    SULLA wrote: »
    When are some people going to understand that Israel is merely defending itself.

    Oh, I understand that. As is their right.
    And Gaza is merely defending itself.

    That's the essentially circular problem that is unsolvable.
  • FlibustierFlibustier Posts: 994
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    Someone should tell the mods we have a live one running riot on here! :D
  • zahavizahavi Posts: 551
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    They also get paid to infiltrate Western political parties.

    It's also not a secret that many Western industries are under the control of Zionists.

    One of the reasons the Jews were persecuted throughout history is because they always tried to monopolize everything. Monopoly is evil. That is not to say that the persecution the Jews faced was justified.
  • FlibustierFlibustier Posts: 994
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    Turks steal northern Cyprus. The northern Cyrpiot state is recognized by no one except Turkey to this day.

    Israel steals the Golan heights from Syria and swaths of Palestinian land, result? Invited into UEFA, FIBA Europe, Eurovision, Eurobarometer, Olympics, etc etc

    Seems FIFA is threatening to kick Israel out of football...

    http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/04/01/FIFA-Threatens-to-Expel-Israel
  • Jellied EelJellied Eel Posts: 33,091
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    Probably paid to write this stuff – they've been posting nonstop all day.

    On the subject of parody, sadly this isn't-

    https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=300+foreskins

    Disclaimer: I should be writing stuff I might get paid for, not posting here..
  • StykerStyker Posts: 49,548
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    Flibustier wrote: »
    Turks steal northern Cyprus. The northern Cyrpiot state is recognized by no one except Turkey to this day.

    Israel steals the Golan heights from Syria and swaths of Palestinian land, result? Invited into UEFA, FIBA Europe, Eurovision, Eurobarometer, Olympics, etc etc

    Seems FIFA is threatening to kick Israel out of football...

    http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/04/01/FIFA-Threatens-to-Expel-Israel

    The situation on Cyprus seems much more murky to me and complicated than the israeli/palestinian one. It was under lease to Britain for some time up until 1960 when it was given its independence and was ruled by the Ottomons before Britain right? So on that basis, what right has Greece over Cyprus?
  • thenetworkbabethenetworkbabe Posts: 45,554
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    Flibustier wrote: »
    Turks steal northern Cyprus. The northern Cyrpiot state is recognized by no one except Turkey to this day.

    Israel steals the Golan heights from Syria and swaths of Palestinian land, result? Invited into UEFA, FIBA Europe, Eurovision, Eurobarometer, Olympics, etc etc

    Seems FIFA is threatening to kick Israel out of football...

    http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/04/01/FIFA-Threatens-to-Expel-Israel

    The argument doesn't follow . Turkey invaded northern Cyprus because the Greek Cypriors had a coup and overthrew the government of a united Cyprus. It did it to protect the Turkish population. Israel took the Golan because Syria continually used the high ground there to lauch artillery attacks on Israel. Neither change has been accepted by the international community because annexation is legally more problematic now post WW2.

    Both states retain what was taken - there is no difference in how either has been treated . Neiher state has any sanctions on them for doing it. Both belong to all the international bodies they want to - from Eurovision upwards. Both annexations are effectively accepted by the international community, and there's no signs of either being reversed any time soon.

    Israel didn't technically take Palestinian land from anyone - it took what was Egyptian and Jordanian land. The problem is that neither Jordan , or Egypt want it back - as both see the occupants as a security threat as much as Israel does. Israel doesn't have any alternative Palestinian leadership to talk to thats both prepared to live with them, and able to contain the more militant rejectionist groups. That leaves no one to hand any territory back to. Israel would probably be happy to see both Egypt and Jordan take back what was theirs - as they would be able to police it effectively - if brutally.
  • thenetworkbabethenetworkbabe Posts: 45,554
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    No reports so far on what Iran is thinking? On the one hand, this is all good for them as it makes it more difficult for Israel to react to their nuclear programme without starting another war in a short period, and before its Iron dome stocks are rebuilt. . Thats important - because the talks with Iran seem to be getting nowhere according to US reports and deadlines are nearing.

    On the other hand , it means Hamas and Iran's other Gaza allies are losing their ability to strike Israel.They also have had their missile resupply routes blocked by General Sisi's Egypt - which wants Hamas to fall and is very hostile to Iran. Iran spent a lot of money and effort building up Hamas's rocket capability - to help try and deter an israeli attack on its nuclear weapons sites. Do they soon call a halt, to preserve some missiles for when they really want Hamas to have them? There's a big irony there - if Iran creates a ceasefire to preserve the capability to do damage for later.
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