This is the first series of Torchwood I've seen,and it was clear from the first episode that the violence has a bit of an edge to it.Coupled with the premise that nobody can actually die,the scope for bad things happening to people,both good and bad,is obvious.I agree that some people have a lot more emotional trouble accepting the death of a decent person,especially if it's a woman or child.If the tables had been turned and the sleazy company guy had been torched,a lot less people would have been shocked,or even cared.I was really disappointed with the scene,because I had really grown to like the Vera character.I thought she was really smart,and hot as well (sorry about the phrasing there!).But as has been mentioned before,it was not a graphic scene,and it left alot to the imagination.I agree the very thought is horrific,and I was really glad when the scene was over.But I found the car crushing scene way more disturbing because it didn't really leave much to the imagination.The final scene of that eyeball rolling around in a few inches of space was one of the most chilling things I've ever seen,including scenes from horror films.Even the sleazy guy getting choked to death last week was more uncomfortable viewing than Vera's demise.
I seriously doubt that complaining to the BBC will achieve anything worthwhile,unless they have an actual time machine in which could go back and stop the show ever being made.I wish they would do that with Eastenders!
I don't know what the BBFC rating is for this show,but I would assume it's a 15.It's not for kids and it's not for those of a nervous disposition.It wouldn't surprise me if one or more of the current regular characters get killed off before the series end.It's obvious that there are going to be a lot more hard to watch scenes in the coming weeks.Thankfully,there is the OFF button for those who can not stomach it.
At least we've learned from this thread that breaking a woman's neck with a stomach-turning crunch so that she has to walk around facing backwards is okay - just as long as she's not on a special list of approved characters. Certainly, no-one seemed to mind that scene with it's graphic portrayal of hands-on violence.
Apparently, seeing someone getting their neck broken on camera is less disturbing than seeing the outside of a box where we're told there are people being burned inside.
This new anti-smoking campaign seems to be really working
^^^ Any sort of violence on TV is OK as far as there is no connection, some may even think 'Take that, bitch!' if it is a negative character. But once you establish a positive connection with a character, everything changes.
They are very nasty to Jack - made me wince more than once. In fact if you don't like naked men getting friendly or a man being tortured I'd avoid the episode.
^^^ Any sort of violence on TV is OK as far as there is no connection, some may even think 'Take that, bitch!' if it is a negative character. But once you establish a positive connection with a character, everything changes.
Understood.
The argument being put forward by some people is that the depiction of the cause of death was the problem. It just seems ridiculous to claim that an off-camera death by fire was more violent than any of a number of on-camera, graphically portrayed instances of violence in the same show.
I can understand if, for example, someone had personal experience of injury or loss as a result of fire being more disturbed by the depiction or representation of such a death in a TV show - but that's entirely personal and does not make the show itself unacceptable ot sub-standard.
I think it's a matter of some people not differentiating between "I was disturbed" and "it was disturbing" - they are blaming the show for their personal feelings.
As for the broken-necked "villain"...
There is a certain feeling of satisfaction in seeing a bad guy get what's coming to them in a drama and a certain feeling of loss - a minor form of genuine grief - at seeing a character we like getting killed. That shouldn't make the presentation or portrayal of the method of violence any more or less "disturbing" - any more than saying that a girl wearing a short skirt was "asking for it" if she is assaulted.
They are very nasty to Jack - made me wince more than once. In fact if you don't like naked men getting friendly or a man being tortured I'd avoid the episode.
I believe there are no cuts - at least to the sex scene.
I'm sure there is cuts to episode 7 when we Brits watch it next week,-the BBC have cut scenes in episode 3(was it ep 3??!) and i've noticed tiny cuts within the BBC make to make things less offensive so its a very good job the few sensitive people on here have not seen the US scenes!:eek::eek:
I'm sure there is cuts to episode 7 when we Brits watch it next week,-the BBC have cut scenes in episode 3(was it ep 3??!) and i've noticed tiny cuts within the BBC make to make things less offensive so its a very good job the few sensitive people on here have not seen the US scenes!:eek::eek:
No I have read Jane Espenson saying that the only cuts are the ones in ep3 and there is a bit in ep 6. As I wasn't looking at the pen torture I probably missed it. Ep 7 will have no cuts.:D
No I have read Jane Espenson saying that the only cuts are the ones in ep3 and there is a bit in ep 6. As I wasn't looking at the pen torture I probably missed it. Ep 7 will have no cuts.:D
Unless they cut episode 7 so much that it became episode 6. That would mean that episode 9 is episide 7.5 and episode 10 is Thurdsay...
Standard glass is fine up to around 2700F. Specialised glass can have a melting point in excess of 4000F.
Regarding the units in Torchwood, they are effectively ovens and it's not just the heat that would have to be taken into account - it's the change in air pressure and the difference in air pressure on either side of the glass.
Put simply, that glass would have been - to all intents and purposes - unbreakable.
I should also say that Rex was badly injured - he'd just been tortured and lost a lot more blood due to having his would opened. He was also on a secure site and supposedly a "dying" patient. The idea that he could have just helped himself to a truck - even if he was well enough - is rather silly. Even if he had, that door was extremely secure and it's very unlikely that he could just pull the door off - plus the flames had already started and there was only a few seconds.
Put simply - people need to just accept that the character would have saved her if it was humanly possible - he's a good guy, a CIA operative and he cared about Vera. The fact that he didn't save her was down to nothing more than it wasn't possible.
That is not unusual - no hero in TV or cinema above the level of Scooby Doo has ever saved every single person who was in danger.
Believe me,if they wanted to save Vera,they would have even if it was beyond the realms of imagination.Imagine if it was Jack in there,he would have got away.Look at how he was saved in the plane when he was poisoned.I had to laugh.So unbelievable that the very ingredients that could counter attack the poison was in the floor board of the plane.It just wasn't in the interest of the story for Vera to live.
and James Bond and a lot of films with suspension of reality that I've watched almost open mouthed at the number of times the protagonist had been saved.Sure,Torchwood is a different kind of drama but then I thought if Jack was able to be saved under unbelievable circumstances so could Vera but I was wrong.
Believe me,if they wanted to save Vera,they would have even if it was beyond the realms of imagination.Imagine if it was Jack in there,he would have got away.Look at how he was saved in the plane when he was poisoned.I had to laugh.So unbelievable that the very ingredients that could counter attack the poison was in the floor board of the plane.It just wasn't in the interest of the story for Vera to live.
Again - are you talking about the program that's on TV or something you've created in your own mind based around those characters?
Who is this "they" that could have saved Vera - if "they" wanted to? Are you talking about the characters or the writers?
The writers didn't want to save that character - they specifically wrote a 10 part story where she dies in one of those episodes.
The characters don't have any such "want" - they are fictional.
You are clearly complaining that the story doesn't match something that you've dreamed up. That's not a problem with the program - it's just you saying that you think you could have done it better. That's fine - but it has nothing to do with this thread - you really should start a thread where you can describe your fan-fiction episodes - leave these weekly threads for people to discuss what has actually happened onscreen rather than what you wanted to happen.
Yes, it has become more civilised, think that may due to the lack of trolling in the last couple of days on here.
Don't forget, this is just an episode thread - there'll be a shiney new one along any day now and the you-know-who's will be back with more of the same.
Hopefully that one will stay more on-topic for the episode - Vera's death, for example - was two episodes and two threads ago but has dominated this thread for "Middle Men"
It's made it almost impossible to discuss the development and evolution of the plot when the discussion keeps being dragged into general criticism of the show and old elements from earlier episodes.
Don't forget, this is just an episode thread - there'll be a shiney new one along any day now and the you-know-who's will be back with more of the same.
Hopefully that one will stay more on-topic for the episode - Vera's death, for example - was two episodes and two threads ago but has dominated this thread for "Middle Men"
It's made it almost impossible to discuss the development and evolution of the plot when the discussion keeps being dragged into general criticism of the show and old elements from earlier episodes.
This isn't the Middle Man thread though? It's the complaining about Torchwood one?
This isn't the Middle Man thread though? It's the complaining about Torchwood one?
Am I missing something? :D
Absolutely not - you're perfect as you are (and that personal problem of yours is almost unnoticable in this light)
I must admit - I was sorely tempted to ask the mods to strip all of the non-episode related posts out of this thread on the basis of it being off-topic but aside from not wanting to (and not being qualified to) police the forum, it would be time-consuming and it would only feed the "help, help - I'm being oppressed" brigade.
This thread was ruined and even though there'll be plenty to talk about with the return of Doctor Who, I still want to be able to discuss the Torchwood episodes without having to clamber over another load of off-topic and baiting posts.
With DW back, I suspect there'll be a few more people trying to troll the forum and a lot more people ready to turn that into an all-out fight. Giving the mods a chance to remove the problem before it escalates is the best thing to do.
Absolutely not - you're perfect as you are (and that personal problem of yours is almost unnoticable in this light)
I must admit - I was sorely tempted to ask the mods to strip all of the non-episode related posts out of this thread on the basis of it being off-topic but aside from not wanting to (and not being qualified to) police the forum, it would be time-consuming and it would only feed the "help, help - I'm being oppressed" brigade.
This thread was ruined and even though there'll be plenty to talk about with the return of Doctor Who, I still want to be able to discuss the Torchwood episodes without having to clamber over another load of off-topic and baiting posts.
With DW back, I suspect there'll be a few more people trying to troll the forum and a lot more people ready to turn that into an all-out fight. Giving the mods a chance to remove the problem before it escalates is the best thing to do.
Actually I think people are getting better at ignoring the trolls now. I noticed one yesterday who went in The Ark In Space thread and tried starting another RTD V SM debate. I caught the same poster doing it on other threads as well and not getting much reaction. By not feeding the trolls they will hopefully go away and people should carry on doing as they did yesterday and ignoring such posts. Maybe we should have forum 'ring-round' troll alert so all know when one is on the premises!
Maybe we should have forum 'ring-round' troll alert so all know when one is on the premises!
I've seen that done on plenty of forums and it can work but all too often it breaks down. You end up with an "elite" - a small group who think they own the forum and it starts to become "ist" - like racist or sexist only target anyone who is "different".
I think it's down to personal responsibility. Since I've been here, I've reported two posts (as far as I can remember) that were personally offensive (seriously offensive - not just disgareeing or a bit of silly name calling) and half a dozen others that were just spam. I've also reported a couple of others that were new htreads and were clearly inflammatory - blatent trolling. That way, it's up to the moderators to decide what is acceptable.
I should say, I have a lot of experience with some really nasty trolls (up to being stalked and having attempts made to hack our home and business networks, creating rumours via forums and blogs that my late father was a child molester etc etc) so the trolls here are pretty laughable by comparison. In fact, this is the only site where I don't use my regular username - I deliberately took a new username when I joined here because I didn't want those people following me and trashing this forum as they have with so many others just because they followed my username.
My take - if you spot a troll, report them to the mods. That way, if you are "wrong", there's no fighting on the forum. It's like picking up litter in the street - you didn't drop it and it's not your job but it makes the world a nicer place for you and everyone else. I wouldn't not pick up litter just in case it upset the person who dropped it or accept that they have a right to drop it - liberalism (small "L") can go too far.
Believe me,if they wanted to save Vera,they would have even if it was beyond the realms of imagination.Imagine if it was Jack in there,he would have got away.Look at how he was saved in the plane when he was poisoned.I had to laugh.So unbelievable that the very ingredients that could counter attack the poison was in the floor board of the plane.It just wasn't in the interest of the story for Vera to live.
You see, I liked episode 2 which has been roundly ridiculed by many.
I thought the concoction that counteracted Jack's arsenic poisoning was ingenious.
I didn't laugh like you, I marvelled at the feat of amazing improvisation and I wondered was there any plausibility to it.
Even now, I would love for someone with a knowledge of chemistry to explain if there was any credibility in the antidote.
Even if it was huge dramatic license and it was just a formulated nonsense magic potion, being able to save someones life in compromised circumstances with only what's to hand available is the sort of thing that happens all the time in real life.
A lot of posters have already explained to you the purpose of the death of Vera.
She burnt alive in the oven to demonstrate the shock and horror of it which you grasped.
We were told that many people were wrongly classified as category 1, they were being burnt en masse and they would have suffered every bit as much as Vera because they were no less alive.
It also showed that no matter who you were, everyone could suffer the same fate.
Even death has a pecking order, some people are buried in lowly graves, some are given state funerals but post Miracle Day if someone designated you as Category 1, rightly or wrongly, you were sent to an oven.
It takes away your status, your individuality and your choice.
Most people want to have some say in where their remains end up, some will chose cremation but others want to be buried beside a departed loved one.
It's all about stripping away dignity and humanity which are things that we hold very dear.
The whole point of choosing Vera was that viewers had invested in her character, she was a doctor who cared and who could help.
We got the full effect of her life and her expertise being wasted because the writer knew that some in the audience would be blase if just nameless, faceless people were disposed of.
I personally would have felt just the same horror about the ovens without the death of Vera but some viewers need a jolt, an emotional impact. That's the nature of drama.
On balance, I don't think that the death of Vera was gratuitous, it was vital plot advancement and enhancement.
I've seen that done on plenty of forums and it can work but all too often it breaks down. You end up with an "elite" - a small group who think they own the forum and it starts to become "ist" - like racist or sexist only target anyone who is "different".
I think it's down to personal responsibility. Since I've been here, I've reported two posts (as far as I can remember) that were personally offensive (seriously offensive - not just disgareeing or a bit of silly name calling) and half a dozen others that were just spam. I've also reported a couple of others that were new htreads and were clearly inflammatory - blatent trolling. That way, it's up to the moderators to decide what is acceptable.
I should say, I have a lot of experience with some really nasty trolls (up to being stalked and having attempts made to hack our home and business networks, creating rumours via forums and blogs that my late father was a child molester etc etc) so the trolls here are pretty laughable by comparison. In fact, this is the only site where I don't use my regular username - I deliberately took a new username when I joined here because I didn't want those people following me and trashing this forum as they have with so many others just because they followed my username.
My take - if you spot a troll, report them to the mods. That way, if you are "wrong", there's no fighting on the forum. It's like picking up litter in the street - you didn't drop it and it's not your job but it makes the world a nicer place for you and everyone else. I wouldn't not pick up litter just in case it upset the person who dropped it or accept that they have a right to drop it - liberalism (small "L") can go too far.
Love your analogies as always Minky!:D
Yes, reporting to the mods is the way we're supposed to do things anyway and like you have reported the really inflammatory trolls we've had on here recently. Some of their attitudes and name calling seriously sucked. :rolleyes:
I've seen that done on plenty of forums and it can work but all too often it breaks down. You end up with an "elite" - a small group who think they own the forum and it starts to become "ist" - like racist or sexist only target anyone who is "different".
I think it's down to personal responsibility. Since I've been here, I've reported two posts (as far as I can remember) that were personally offensive (seriously offensive - not just disgareeing or a bit of silly name calling) and half a dozen others that were just spam. I've also reported a couple of others that were new htreads and were clearly inflammatory - blatent trolling. That way, it's up to the moderators to decide what is acceptable.
I should say, I have a lot of experience with some really nasty trolls (up to being stalked and having attempts made to hack our home and business networks, creating rumours via forums and blogs that my late father was a child molester etc etc) so the trolls here are pretty laughable by comparison. In fact, this is the only site where I don't use my regular username - I deliberately took a new username when I joined here because I didn't want those people following me and trashing this forum as they have with so many others just because they followed my username.
My take - if you spot a troll, report them to the mods. That way, if you are "wrong", there's no fighting on the forum. It's like picking up litter in the street - you didn't drop it and it's not your job but it makes the world a nicer place for you and everyone else. I wouldn't not pick up litter just in case it upset the person who dropped it or accept that they have a right to drop it - liberalism (small "L") can go too far.
Gosh Minky, how hellish for you.:eek:
Of course I don't know the circumstances but it sounds to me like people were affronted by your intelligence.
You have a remarkable ability to close down an argument, the only problem is that some posters don't stay down after you've nailed them.
It's bad form on their part.
They should admit defeat, shake hands and move on.
Comments
I seriously doubt that complaining to the BBC will achieve anything worthwhile,unless they have an actual time machine in which could go back and stop the show ever being made.I wish they would do that with Eastenders!
I don't know what the BBFC rating is for this show,but I would assume it's a 15.It's not for kids and it's not for those of a nervous disposition.It wouldn't surprise me if one or more of the current regular characters get killed off before the series end.It's obvious that there are going to be a lot more hard to watch scenes in the coming weeks.Thankfully,there is the OFF button for those who can not stomach it.
Apparently, seeing someone getting their neck broken on camera is less disturbing than seeing the outside of a box where we're told there are people being burned inside.
This new anti-smoking campaign seems to be really working
Understood.
The argument being put forward by some people is that the depiction of the cause of death was the problem. It just seems ridiculous to claim that an off-camera death by fire was more violent than any of a number of on-camera, graphically portrayed instances of violence in the same show.
I can understand if, for example, someone had personal experience of injury or loss as a result of fire being more disturbed by the depiction or representation of such a death in a TV show - but that's entirely personal and does not make the show itself unacceptable ot sub-standard.
I think it's a matter of some people not differentiating between "I was disturbed" and "it was disturbing" - they are blaming the show for their personal feelings.
As for the broken-necked "villain"...
There is a certain feeling of satisfaction in seeing a bad guy get what's coming to them in a drama and a certain feeling of loss - a minor form of genuine grief - at seeing a character we like getting killed. That shouldn't make the presentation or portrayal of the method of violence any more or less "disturbing" - any more than saying that a girl wearing a short skirt was "asking for it" if she is assaulted.
Double standards - never a good thing.
And the rest is just
Which is probably all BBC will show anyway :eek:
I believe there are no cuts - at least to the sex scene.
I'm sure there is cuts to episode 7 when we Brits watch it next week,-the BBC have cut scenes in episode 3(was it ep 3??!) and i've noticed tiny cuts within the BBC make to make things less offensive so its a very good job the few sensitive people on here have not seen the US scenes!:eek::eek:
No I have read Jane Espenson saying that the only cuts are the ones in ep3 and there is a bit in ep 6. As I wasn't looking at the pen torture I probably missed it. Ep 7 will have no cuts.:D
Unless they cut episode 7 so much that it became episode 6. That would mean that episode 9 is episide 7.5 and episode 10 is Thurdsay...
...or something.
Believe me,if they wanted to save Vera,they would have even if it was beyond the realms of imagination.Imagine if it was Jack in there,he would have got away.Look at how he was saved in the plane when he was poisoned.I had to laugh.So unbelievable that the very ingredients that could counter attack the poison was in the floor board of the plane.It just wasn't in the interest of the story for Vera to live.
and James Bond and a lot of films with suspension of reality that I've watched almost open mouthed at the number of times the protagonist had been saved.Sure,Torchwood is a different kind of drama but then I thought if Jack was able to be saved under unbelievable circumstances so could Vera but I was wrong.
Again - are you talking about the program that's on TV or something you've created in your own mind based around those characters?
Who is this "they" that could have saved Vera - if "they" wanted to? Are you talking about the characters or the writers?
The writers didn't want to save that character - they specifically wrote a 10 part story where she dies in one of those episodes.
The characters don't have any such "want" - they are fictional.
You are clearly complaining that the story doesn't match something that you've dreamed up. That's not a problem with the program - it's just you saying that you think you could have done it better. That's fine - but it has nothing to do with this thread - you really should start a thread where you can describe your fan-fiction episodes - leave these weekly threads for people to discuss what has actually happened onscreen rather than what you wanted to happen.
Yes,you are certainly a breath of fresh air to this thread:)
Thanks!
Yes, it has become more civilised, think that may due to the lack of trolling in the last couple of days on here.
Don't forget, this is just an episode thread - there'll be a shiney new one along any day now and the you-know-who's will be back with more of the same.
Hopefully that one will stay more on-topic for the episode - Vera's death, for example - was two episodes and two threads ago but has dominated this thread for "Middle Men"
It's made it almost impossible to discuss the development and evolution of the plot when the discussion keeps being dragged into general criticism of the show and old elements from earlier episodes.
This isn't the Middle Man thread though? It's the complaining about Torchwood one?
Am I missing something?
Aye,indeed,it's the complaining one started by myself.:D
Didn't think I was going mad! Mind you, with all the Torchwood threads on the go lately it's easy to get confused.
Absolutely not - you're perfect as you are (and that personal problem of yours is almost unnoticable in this light)
I must admit - I was sorely tempted to ask the mods to strip all of the non-episode related posts out of this thread on the basis of it being off-topic but aside from not wanting to (and not being qualified to) police the forum, it would be time-consuming and it would only feed the "help, help - I'm being oppressed" brigade.
This thread was ruined and even though there'll be plenty to talk about with the return of Doctor Who, I still want to be able to discuss the Torchwood episodes without having to clamber over another load of off-topic and baiting posts.
With DW back, I suspect there'll be a few more people trying to troll the forum and a lot more people ready to turn that into an all-out fight. Giving the mods a chance to remove the problem before it escalates is the best thing to do.
Actually I think people are getting better at ignoring the trolls now. I noticed one yesterday who went in The Ark In Space thread and tried starting another RTD V SM debate. I caught the same poster doing it on other threads as well and not getting much reaction. By not feeding the trolls they will hopefully go away and people should carry on doing as they did yesterday and ignoring such posts. Maybe we should have forum 'ring-round' troll alert so all know when one is on the premises!
I've seen that done on plenty of forums and it can work but all too often it breaks down. You end up with an "elite" - a small group who think they own the forum and it starts to become "ist" - like racist or sexist only target anyone who is "different".
I think it's down to personal responsibility. Since I've been here, I've reported two posts (as far as I can remember) that were personally offensive (seriously offensive - not just disgareeing or a bit of silly name calling) and half a dozen others that were just spam. I've also reported a couple of others that were new htreads and were clearly inflammatory - blatent trolling. That way, it's up to the moderators to decide what is acceptable.
I should say, I have a lot of experience with some really nasty trolls (up to being stalked and having attempts made to hack our home and business networks, creating rumours via forums and blogs that my late father was a child molester etc etc) so the trolls here are pretty laughable by comparison. In fact, this is the only site where I don't use my regular username - I deliberately took a new username when I joined here because I didn't want those people following me and trashing this forum as they have with so many others just because they followed my username.
My take - if you spot a troll, report them to the mods. That way, if you are "wrong", there's no fighting on the forum. It's like picking up litter in the street - you didn't drop it and it's not your job but it makes the world a nicer place for you and everyone else. I wouldn't not pick up litter just in case it upset the person who dropped it or accept that they have a right to drop it - liberalism (small "L") can go too far.
You see, I liked episode 2 which has been roundly ridiculed by many.
I thought the concoction that counteracted Jack's arsenic poisoning was ingenious.
I didn't laugh like you, I marvelled at the feat of amazing improvisation and I wondered was there any plausibility to it.
Even now, I would love for someone with a knowledge of chemistry to explain if there was any credibility in the antidote.
Even if it was huge dramatic license and it was just a formulated nonsense magic potion, being able to save someones life in compromised circumstances with only what's to hand available is the sort of thing that happens all the time in real life.
A lot of posters have already explained to you the purpose of the death of Vera.
She burnt alive in the oven to demonstrate the shock and horror of it which you grasped.
We were told that many people were wrongly classified as category 1, they were being burnt en masse and they would have suffered every bit as much as Vera because they were no less alive.
It also showed that no matter who you were, everyone could suffer the same fate.
Even death has a pecking order, some people are buried in lowly graves, some are given state funerals but post Miracle Day if someone designated you as Category 1, rightly or wrongly, you were sent to an oven.
It takes away your status, your individuality and your choice.
Most people want to have some say in where their remains end up, some will chose cremation but others want to be buried beside a departed loved one.
It's all about stripping away dignity and humanity which are things that we hold very dear.
The whole point of choosing Vera was that viewers had invested in her character, she was a doctor who cared and who could help.
We got the full effect of her life and her expertise being wasted because the writer knew that some in the audience would be blase if just nameless, faceless people were disposed of.
I personally would have felt just the same horror about the ovens without the death of Vera but some viewers need a jolt, an emotional impact. That's the nature of drama.
On balance, I don't think that the death of Vera was gratuitous, it was vital plot advancement and enhancement.
Love your analogies as always Minky!:D
Yes, reporting to the mods is the way we're supposed to do things anyway and like you have reported the really inflammatory trolls we've had on here recently. Some of their attitudes and name calling seriously sucked. :rolleyes:
Gosh Minky, how hellish for you.:eek:
Of course I don't know the circumstances but it sounds to me like people were affronted by your intelligence.
You have a remarkable ability to close down an argument, the only problem is that some posters don't stay down after you've nailed them.
It's bad form on their part.
They should admit defeat, shake hands and move on.