However you slice it, almost 3:1 is a pretty commanding sales "edge" for Blu Ray.
If you accept the sample the figures are based on as representative and since they don't take into accounts some major US retailers and many online sources then they are suspect.
However as a framework which doesn't change week to week they do have some basis for trend tracking but missing sales data from Walmart (as Neilson does and a big player in the recent push on HD DVD hardware) would seem to be a big negative if you are trying to find the big picture:)
If Nielson contracted with Walmart then I think we would have a more representative picture, it may still be in Blu-ray favour but they are such a huge retailer they shouldn't be ignored. Of course the fact my US imports are never counted in favour of HD DVD sales gauls as well but they are more then negated by Blu-ray imports I suspect:)
Still the facts and niggley details don't matter to the average punter it's all about perception and at the moment that is Blu-ray in BIG BLUE LETTERS especially this side of the pond:)
Even I was amazed when releases where totalled up and HD DVD were only a handful behind, the marketing and my own perception was Blu-ray had double or triple the number of movies. Toshiba may be doing very well on promoting the hardware front but SONY and Co are getting the movies into the public eye where it counts.
If you accept the sample the figures are based on as representative and since they don't take into accounts some major US retailers and many online sources then they are suspect.
>snip<
Is there a source for the missing Walmart and others' figures out there? Does "the industry" consider the figures posted by Neilsen to be misleading, or are they thought to be a representative sample? Until you've asked everyone, there's always a possibility of statistical error, but a representative sample reduces the potential error to an insignificant amount. Are Walmart shoppers significantly different from those in the sample?
I don't know the answers, I just pose them in the hopes someone reading it has the answers. Otherwise it's just opinion, with no facts behind it.
However you slice it, almost 3:1 is a pretty commanding sales "edge" for Blu Ray.
The only remotely convincing counter argument is that there are still very few sales of either format, relative to DVD. Meaning that there's still chance for HD-DVD to overturn Blu Ray's lead. However, if Tosh's deep discounting doesn't do it this Christmas, it's hard to see a long term future for HD-DVD. In which case, dual format players won't be around for long either (How long is it since you could buy a dual LD/DVD player?).
I'll counter that by saying that unless Blu-ray release some cheap players that aren't games consoles, their current lead will mean didley squat and HD-DVD could well regain some ground over the next 12 months with their cheap players.
I'll counter that by saying that unless Blu-ray release some cheap players that aren't games consoles, their current lead will mean didley squat and HD-DVD could well regain some ground over the next 12 months with their cheap players.
I agree.
There's no question that the PS3 is whats keeping BR sales out in front.
However , a format like BR cannot rely solely on gamers.
Until BR can get a good standalone player out there at a good price the current figures are unimportant , especially as both hi def formats are selling puny amounts.
Its the enthusiasts who get formats going and I would say that there are a lot of enthusiasts uninterested in BR because of region coding.
And the fact that the selection of titles on offer on both formats is very poor.
I'm almost at the point where the recent Star Trek combo set has me going for an HDDVD player .
At their very good prices its almost worth the gamble even if it does die.
Unfortunately the combo discs themselves are not such a good deal
Unfortunately the combo discs themselves are not such a good deal
Amen to that.
It's looking likely that I'll only pickup HD TOS when it gets released for a 1.1 profile Blu-ray player and non-combo to jack up the price:)
Amen to that.
It's looking likely that I'll only pickup HD TOS when it gets released for a 1.1 profile Blu-ray player and non-combo to jack up the price:)
You're in for an 18 month wait though. TOS HD is gorgeous, I'm enjoying it now.:D
There's no question that the PS3 is whats keeping BR sales out in front.
However , a format like BR cannot rely solely on gamers.
Until BR can get a good standalone player out there at a good price the current figures are unimportant , especially as both hi def formats are selling puny amounts.
Its the enthusiasts who get formats going and I would say that there are a lot of enthusiasts uninterested in BR because of region coding.
>snip<
It's funny how HD-DVD supporters still cling to this false distinction of gamers and movie buyers. A disk sale is still a sale. I agree that gamers don't buy as many disks as movie fans, but the disks they do buy still count towards the 3:1 Blu Ray advantage. If you've got Blu Ray in the house because you're a gamer, you're very unlikely to go and buy an HD-DVD machine.
How long do you expect the studios to wait for HD-DVD to give them the sales figures they need to justify keeping on making them? I believe the key decisions will be made after this Christmas sales figures are in. If HD-DVD hasn't overturned Blu Ray by then, it will be history or a stalemate at best.
I totally agree on the region free point. I wish Blu Ray was region free. I'm hoping that eventually there will be "third party solutions" to that problem - just like DVD.
It's funny how HD-DVD supporters still cling to this false distinction of gamers and movie buyers. A disk sale is still a sale. I agree that gamers don't buy as many disks as movie fans, but the disks they do buy still count towards the 3:1 Blu Ray advantage. If you've got Blu Ray in the house because you're a gamer, you're very unlikely to go and buy an HD-DVD machine.
How long do you expect the studios to wait for HD-DVD to give them the sales figures they need to justify keeping on making them? I believe the key decisions will be made after this Christmas sales figures are in. If HD-DVD hasn't overturned Blu Ray by then, it will be history or a stalemate at best.
Probably because it makes me feel better;)
Seriously though you know that since the PS3 has well over 6 million units (probably closer to 7 with the price cut) it still hasn't been able to kill off the HD DVD format. If every PS3 sale meant HD movie sales then the contest would indeed be over right now but when stating simple userbase the disk sales per unit have to mean something to the studios who have no direct link to the hardware revenues.
Not to mention that good old BOGOF offers dilute the revenues and hence while great for the consumer and PR people it effects the overall value of disk sales data.
Granted the average punter doesn't care that that standalone HD DVD players outnumber Blu-ray standalones and certainly the Blue camp are never going to bring that up when the huge headline can read Blu-ray outnumbers HD DVD by 7:1 in player terms yet even if you accept the "restricted outlet" Nielson figures the disk sales are still only 3:1 for this one period of time.
Ok forget all that, it is really all talk for talks sake and it would far easier to trumpet Blu-ray since it's hard to argue that at least on the surface HD DVD stands no chance of becoming the only HD format.
I honestly just don't think Blu-ray has done enough to kill HD DVD off and now has little chance since HD DVD has the price point and studio support needed to be around all through 2008 regardless of the BD camp can do.
That said something we've agreed on is that the holiday season is important, HD DVD is selling well in hardware terms thanks to cheap players but Blu-ray still has the disk sales sewn up.
If Warner (the only real mainstream studio not pinned down) went Blu-ray then I think the war could be over by the end of 2008, if they went HD DVD well that would be interesting.
I totally agree on the region free point. I wish Blu Ray was region free. I'm hoping that eventually there will be "third party solutions" to that problem - just like DVD.
Hand on heart I don't understand why Blu-ray launched without the basics the PS3 has by design, the price point crippled the standalones as well and region encoding was the final nail.
I was Blu-ray all the way from the initial announcement to literally months before I bought my XE1, it's "failings" pushed me towards HD DVD and the content lineup was perfectly acceptable and still is despite drooling over some Blu-ray movies:)
For everything I have said I can see myself buying a Blu-ray player within 18months perhaps less if there is a good dual player released. The point I think many would agree with is that not many Blu-ray owners would be saying the same about a HD DVD player purchase although a dual could still be viable if the stalemate continues.
I totally sympathise. There are some titles I want that are exclusive to HD-DVD (currently:)).
If it's to be a stalemate, how will that work? Will all titles eventually be available on both formats, or will studios remain exclusive? It's a tough call. On the one hand, I can't see studios wanting to miss out on sales in the "other format", but on the other hand, there must be extra costs associated with producing titles in both formats. And I don't see the Sony owned studios ever releasing their titles on HD-DVD.
And I don't see the Sony owned studios ever releasing their titles on HD-DVD.
I wouldnt be so sure about that - Sony didnt used to support MP3 in favour of their ATRAC format, but recently they've released Walkman MP3 players.
Same with Betamax and LaserDisc. Sony would hold out, but they wouldnt cut off their nose to spite their face. If there is a profit to be had in HD DVD, they'll take it.
I wouldnt be so sure about that - Sony didnt used to support MP3 in favour of their ATRAC format, but recently they've released Walkman MP3 players.
Same with Betamax and LaserDisc. Sony would hold out, but they wouldnt cut off their nose to spite their face. If there is a profit to be had in HD DVD, they'll take it.
Only if HD-DVD became totally dominant, as mp3 did.
Was there a Sony supported alternative to LD? I know there was a caddy based disk format that was read like an old LP, but that died a death very quickly. Were Sony involved in that?
It took years of total VHS dominance before Betamax folded. And the other big difference there is that Sony didn't own any studios to release material exclusively on Betamax.
I like how HD DVD fanboys avoid the fact that even in the US market, the so called HD-DVD stronghold, BD is winning!
The worldwides figures are just overwhelming.
C'mon Chparmar,
Feel the love. Both formats are excellent. Futureproof yourself by buying into HD-DVD as well as Blu-ray. It wont cost you much to do so, and you'll be helping to prolong the format war, which ultimately means cheaper prices for all consumers.
If it's to be a stalemate, how will that work? Will all titles eventually be available on both formats, or will studios remain exclusive? It's a tough call. On the one hand, I can't see studios wanting to miss out on sales in the "other format", but on the other hand, there must be extra costs associated with producing titles in both formats. And I don't see the Sony owned studios ever releasing their titles on HD-DVD.
The assumption purely for discussion is that both hardware formats are selling well enough to get studio support (inline with existing contracts).
If this is the case then I see the meteoric rise of the dual format player and it's price collapse as Chinese sourced Laser assembles flood the market. The likes of Pio, Denon, Samsung, LG etc etc all push dual above Blu-ray only.
Only SONY really benefits from the PS3 and even they hit the brick wall of subsidies for Blu-ray standalones and via the agreement that should have been there from day1 a joint statement between SONY and TOSH announce dual format only players (PS3 and 360 being exempt).
Mass production of HD DVD is a doddle (in relative terms) and BD production escalates with new plants coming online cutting costs to little more than DVD.
I can see both formats surviving if the market supports two releases but if there is a few cents between each format then with dual format being dominant then the releases will gradually favour one over the other with no mass consumer protest.
Feel the love. Both formats are excellent. Futureproof yourself by buying into HD-DVD as well as Blu-ray. It wont cost you much to do so, and you'll be helping to prolong the format war, which ultimately means cheaper prices for all consumers.
What?!
Someday I might buy HD-DVD, but right now I am happy with my PS3! If it wasn't for the PS3, I honestly would not even bother at this stage.
The disc prices are not high. And as for cheaper prices for all consumers, DVD is and wasn't too expensive eithier!
Was there a Sony supported alternative to LD? I know there was a caddy based disk format that was read like an old LP, but that died a death very quickly. Were Sony involved in that?
That was Hitachi, called CED (Capacitive Electronic Disc), I repaired the first one in the UK
I've still got four films as test discs in the workshop! - the system flopped badly, and the units were sold off for £49 complete with 20 films.
I don't recall Sony ever getting involved in video discs?, Ferguson/JVC did yet another flopped system, and of course Philips launched LaserDisc a number of times, but was a flop every time!
I don't recall Sony ever getting involved in video discs?, Ferguson/JVC did yet another flopped system, and of course Philips launched LaserDisc a number of times, but was a flop every time!
But a magnificent flop for those of us who owned one:)
But a magnificent flop for those of us who owned one:)
I still have my LDs and my Pioneer LD1450, with NTSC plaback is still connected. I haven't played anything for probably two years, though!
It was the best, in its day. It was a success in the US, but remained a niche, upmarket, format. The masses stayed with VHS. In Europe it didn't take off at all. Enthusiasts like me had to rely on Ken Crane to supply NTSC titles from the US.
I still have my LDs and my Pioneer LD1450, with NTSC plaback is still connected. I haven't played anything for probably two years, though!
It was the best, in its day. It was a success in the US, but remained a niche, upmarket, format. The masses stayed with VHS. In Europe it didn't take off at all. Enthusiasts like me had to rely on Ken Crane to supply NTSC titles from the US.
I had the Pio CLD 2950 upgraded to AC3 but sold the whole collection quite a while ago (the guy got a great deal:) ) after my R1 DVD player really became the primary player for new content.
I got most of mine from Laser Enterprises and a few from Forum Hifi in Nottingham.
Star Wars trilogy, Aliens and Raiders Trilogy, beautiful for their day but make HD prices look cheap in comparison. Those that look at HD players/media really have forgotten or didn't even know how much some AV technology cost back in the "old" days even VHS and DVD at launch:)
You know, I think I really need to let go. I may try to eBay the stuff after Christmas. Somebody out there might be looking for the original versions of the SW trilogy and a working LD player!:)
You know, I think I really need to let go. I may try to eBay the stuff after Christmas. Somebody out there might be looking for the original versions of the SW trilogy and a working LD player!:)
Yes! That's the one! I could take some piccies and send them on. Are they looking for more photos of that model?
Back on topic: I've just seen a report of the first sub $300 blu ray player, here
I don't think the S300 has an ethernet port, but at £150 its certainly cheaper than a PS3. A good option if you just want to watch the movies. Bodes well for prices coming down in general.
Re: LD archives
I don't know that they want more pics of that model, but I did think the ones they have up at the moment are pretty ropey (compared to some of the pics for other models). They may have used those ones because they have a detail shot of the modded remote that enables switching between analogue and digital audio.
Comments
If you accept the sample the figures are based on as representative and since they don't take into accounts some major US retailers and many online sources then they are suspect.
However as a framework which doesn't change week to week they do have some basis for trend tracking but missing sales data from Walmart (as Neilson does and a big player in the recent push on HD DVD hardware) would seem to be a big negative if you are trying to find the big picture:)
If Nielson contracted with Walmart then I think we would have a more representative picture, it may still be in Blu-ray favour but they are such a huge retailer they shouldn't be ignored. Of course the fact my US imports are never counted in favour of HD DVD sales gauls as well but they are more then negated by Blu-ray imports I suspect:)
Still the facts and niggley details don't matter to the average punter it's all about perception and at the moment that is Blu-ray in BIG BLUE LETTERS especially this side of the pond:)
Even I was amazed when releases where totalled up and HD DVD were only a handful behind, the marketing and my own perception was Blu-ray had double or triple the number of movies. Toshiba may be doing very well on promoting the hardware front but SONY and Co are getting the movies into the public eye where it counts.
Is there a source for the missing Walmart and others' figures out there? Does "the industry" consider the figures posted by Neilsen to be misleading, or are they thought to be a representative sample? Until you've asked everyone, there's always a possibility of statistical error, but a representative sample reduces the potential error to an insignificant amount. Are Walmart shoppers significantly different from those in the sample?
I don't know the answers, I just pose them in the hopes someone reading it has the answers. Otherwise it's just opinion, with no facts behind it.
I'll counter that by saying that unless Blu-ray release some cheap players that aren't games consoles, their current lead will mean didley squat and HD-DVD could well regain some ground over the next 12 months with their cheap players.
I agree.
There's no question that the PS3 is whats keeping BR sales out in front.
However , a format like BR cannot rely solely on gamers.
Until BR can get a good standalone player out there at a good price the current figures are unimportant , especially as both hi def formats are selling puny amounts.
Its the enthusiasts who get formats going and I would say that there are a lot of enthusiasts uninterested in BR because of region coding.
And the fact that the selection of titles on offer on both formats is very poor.
I'm almost at the point where the recent Star Trek combo set has me going for an HDDVD player .
At their very good prices its almost worth the gamble even if it does die.
Unfortunately the combo discs themselves are not such a good deal
Amen to that.
It's looking likely that I'll only pickup HD TOS when it gets released for a 1.1 profile Blu-ray player and non-combo to jack up the price:)
You're in for an 18 month wait though. TOS HD is gorgeous, I'm enjoying it now.:D
It's the only reason I bought an HD-DVD player.
I'm prepared to wait, I didn't buy HD DVD for TOS but it would have been a nice xmas present but I object to Combos being forced onto the consumer.
I'll have to make do with BSG (processing now).
It's funny how HD-DVD supporters still cling to this false distinction of gamers and movie buyers. A disk sale is still a sale. I agree that gamers don't buy as many disks as movie fans, but the disks they do buy still count towards the 3:1 Blu Ray advantage. If you've got Blu Ray in the house because you're a gamer, you're very unlikely to go and buy an HD-DVD machine.
How long do you expect the studios to wait for HD-DVD to give them the sales figures they need to justify keeping on making them? I believe the key decisions will be made after this Christmas sales figures are in. If HD-DVD hasn't overturned Blu Ray by then, it will be history or a stalemate at best.
I totally agree on the region free point. I wish Blu Ray was region free. I'm hoping that eventually there will be "third party solutions" to that problem - just like DVD.
Probably because it makes me feel better;)
Seriously though you know that since the PS3 has well over 6 million units (probably closer to 7 with the price cut) it still hasn't been able to kill off the HD DVD format. If every PS3 sale meant HD movie sales then the contest would indeed be over right now but when stating simple userbase the disk sales per unit have to mean something to the studios who have no direct link to the hardware revenues.
Not to mention that good old BOGOF offers dilute the revenues and hence while great for the consumer and PR people it effects the overall value of disk sales data.
Granted the average punter doesn't care that that standalone HD DVD players outnumber Blu-ray standalones and certainly the Blue camp are never going to bring that up when the huge headline can read Blu-ray outnumbers HD DVD by 7:1 in player terms yet even if you accept the "restricted outlet" Nielson figures the disk sales are still only 3:1 for this one period of time.
Ok forget all that, it is really all talk for talks sake and it would far easier to trumpet Blu-ray since it's hard to argue that at least on the surface HD DVD stands no chance of becoming the only HD format.
I honestly just don't think Blu-ray has done enough to kill HD DVD off and now has little chance since HD DVD has the price point and studio support needed to be around all through 2008 regardless of the BD camp can do.
That said something we've agreed on is that the holiday season is important, HD DVD is selling well in hardware terms thanks to cheap players but Blu-ray still has the disk sales sewn up.
If Warner (the only real mainstream studio not pinned down) went Blu-ray then I think the war could be over by the end of 2008, if they went HD DVD well that would be interesting.
Hand on heart I don't understand why Blu-ray launched without the basics the PS3 has by design, the price point crippled the standalones as well and region encoding was the final nail.
I was Blu-ray all the way from the initial announcement to literally months before I bought my XE1, it's "failings" pushed me towards HD DVD and the content lineup was perfectly acceptable and still is despite drooling over some Blu-ray movies:)
For everything I have said I can see myself buying a Blu-ray player within 18months perhaps less if there is a good dual player released. The point I think many would agree with is that not many Blu-ray owners would be saying the same about a HD DVD player purchase although a dual could still be viable if the stalemate continues.
If it's to be a stalemate, how will that work? Will all titles eventually be available on both formats, or will studios remain exclusive? It's a tough call. On the one hand, I can't see studios wanting to miss out on sales in the "other format", but on the other hand, there must be extra costs associated with producing titles in both formats. And I don't see the Sony owned studios ever releasing their titles on HD-DVD.
I wouldnt be so sure about that - Sony didnt used to support MP3 in favour of their ATRAC format, but recently they've released Walkman MP3 players.
Same with Betamax and LaserDisc. Sony would hold out, but they wouldnt cut off their nose to spite their face. If there is a profit to be had in HD DVD, they'll take it.
Only if HD-DVD became totally dominant, as mp3 did.
Was there a Sony supported alternative to LD? I know there was a caddy based disk format that was read like an old LP, but that died a death very quickly. Were Sony involved in that?
It took years of total VHS dominance before Betamax folded. And the other big difference there is that Sony didn't own any studios to release material exclusively on Betamax.
C'mon Chparmar,
Feel the love. Both formats are excellent. Futureproof yourself by buying into HD-DVD as well as Blu-ray. It wont cost you much to do so, and you'll be helping to prolong the format war, which ultimately means cheaper prices for all consumers.
The assumption purely for discussion is that both hardware formats are selling well enough to get studio support (inline with existing contracts).
If this is the case then I see the meteoric rise of the dual format player and it's price collapse as Chinese sourced Laser assembles flood the market. The likes of Pio, Denon, Samsung, LG etc etc all push dual above Blu-ray only.
Only SONY really benefits from the PS3 and even they hit the brick wall of subsidies for Blu-ray standalones and via the agreement that should have been there from day1 a joint statement between SONY and TOSH announce dual format only players (PS3 and 360 being exempt).
Mass production of HD DVD is a doddle (in relative terms) and BD production escalates with new plants coming online cutting costs to little more than DVD.
I can see both formats surviving if the market supports two releases but if there is a few cents between each format then with dual format being dominant then the releases will gradually favour one over the other with no mass consumer protest.
Back to the real world...
http://www.itwire.com/content/view/15658/1023/
What?!
Someday I might buy HD-DVD, but right now I am happy with my PS3! If it wasn't for the PS3, I honestly would not even bother at this stage.
The disc prices are not high. And as for cheaper prices for all consumers, DVD is and wasn't too expensive eithier!
That was Hitachi, called CED (Capacitive Electronic Disc), I repaired the first one in the UK
I've still got four films as test discs in the workshop! - the system flopped badly, and the units were sold off for £49 complete with 20 films.
I don't recall Sony ever getting involved in video discs?, Ferguson/JVC did yet another flopped system, and of course Philips launched LaserDisc a number of times, but was a flop every time!
But a magnificent flop for those of us who owned one:)
I still have my LDs and my Pioneer LD1450, with NTSC plaback is still connected. I haven't played anything for probably two years, though!
It was the best, in its day. It was a success in the US, but remained a niche, upmarket, format. The masses stayed with VHS. In Europe it didn't take off at all. Enthusiasts like me had to rely on Ken Crane to supply NTSC titles from the US.
I had the Pio CLD 2950 upgraded to AC3 but sold the whole collection quite a while ago (the guy got a great deal:) ) after my R1 DVD player really became the primary player for new content.
I got most of mine from Laser Enterprises and a few from Forum Hifi in Nottingham.
Star Wars trilogy, Aliens and Raiders Trilogy, beautiful for their day but make HD prices look cheap in comparison. Those that look at HD players/media really have forgotten or didn't even know how much some AV technology cost back in the "old" days even VHS and DVD at launch:)
Is this your model GDK?
http://www.laserdiscarchive.co.uk/laserdisc_archive/pioneer/pioneer_cld-1450/pioneer_cld-1450.htm
If so, any potential buyers could take a peak. There's also a link on that page to the original manual.
Don't know if you'd be interested in sending them pics of your player before you move it on, might make it easier to let go?
I remember watching Star Wars on LD at a friends house 10-12 years ago... very envious, I was!
Back on topic: I've just seen a report of the first sub $300 blu ray player, here
I don't think the S300 has an ethernet port, but at £150 its certainly cheaper than a PS3. A good option if you just want to watch the movies. Bodes well for prices coming down in general.
Re: LD archives
I don't know that they want more pics of that model, but I did think the ones they have up at the moment are pretty ropey (compared to some of the pics for other models). They may have used those ones because they have a detail shot of the modded remote that enables switching between analogue and digital audio.