They are actually looking at the possibility of reopening the Carmarthen-Aberystwyth line, and I believe the WG have made a cost analysis.
Goodness knows whether it will happen but there is definite enthusiasm for it.
The heritage steam (Gwili) railway using the old line, and operating from Carmarthen northwards for several miles, have said they would be willing to take part / sell their premises.
Carmarthen - Aberystwyth will never happen. It simply doesn't make an economic case for itself.
It's approximately 45 miles - using Borders rail as an example that cost about £ 12m / mile, so your looking at about £ 500m to reinstate Carmarthen - Aberystwyth.
They did the same on the Swanage - Wareham line in Dorset. As soon as the line was scheduled for closure a group was set up to buy the line. Even though BR knew this they deliberately ripped up the track to make it as difficult as they possible could for the group.
The irony now the line is going to be carrying National Rail services again as well as the heritage services...
That is why I consider it state-sponsored vandalism, not necessarily because the lines were closed, even though many were closed under vary dubious circumstances and made little sense even at the time, let alone now, but because of the determination by the government at the time to deliberately ensure the lines could never be re-opened. I read recently it has been estimated that 2/3rds of the lines closed in the 1960s & '70s would be profitable if they could be re-opened today.
And it still continues even today. The track bed on the cirencester - Kemble branch line still exists and yet National Rail recently applied for planning permission to turn the track bed at Kemble station in to a car park. fortunately the local council rejected the application on the grounds that allowing the application would prevent any future re-opening of the line.
As a result of this, money is now being raised to fund a feasibility study to look in to the future re-opening the line.
Bo'ness is on a heritage line that connects to the Glasgow to Edinburgh mainline.
Could proper rail services return to Bo'ness in the future?
Many of the routes are now converted to cycle ways. But I notice that where bridges were built to carry the railway over a road, those bridges were pulled down - I guess to make it uneconomical to restore the rail link at a later date.
And why would that be, IMO, to make sure the gov never again got lumbered with providing a mass transit system on the previous scale. Getting people to provide their own transport (cars) means the cost implications are mostly on the owner of the car - not the government (with the exception of the roads). A nice little money spinner in tax for the gov, and boosts the economy - people need to buy + maintain cars.
The disused railway bridges were removed for mainly two reasons - the first being that they required varying degree of maintenance and secondly that they removed height restrictions on some of the roads.
One factor that was not taken into account was that the disused lines still required maintenance in terms of ensuring drainage culverts, cuttings and embankments were safe, so still cost money to manage but provided no benefit in return.
And I also believe there was an element of spite, especially as railways had been grouped together and therefore allowed managers with their origins in one old railway company to but the boot in on part of the system that once was run by their rivals.
Carmarthen - Aberystwyth will never happen. It simply doesn't make an economic case for itself.
It's approximately 45 miles - using Borders rail as an example that cost about £ 12m / mile, so your looking at about £ 500m to reinstate Carmarthen - Aberystwyth.
You're probably right, but never say never
It shouldn't have been closed in the first place imv.
The Beeching cuts were a response to the rise in use of the car and a corresponding decline in rail travel. However, the statistics used back then were rough and inaccurate and so a third of the Beeching cuts were unjustified. Furthermore, the social aspect of keeping isolated communities connected to each other and to major towns wasn't even a factor and it should have been.
For what it's worth, I'd like to see a scrapping of the insanely expensive (£50 bn+) HS2 white elephant scheme with the monies to be spent instead making the UK's transport (rail + road) and bridge networks more resilient to extreme weather combined with a review of the rail network to see where it would be appropriate to extend new lines or reopen old ones given the changes in populations over the decades. For example, there's only one rail link into Cornwall and part of it runs right by the stormy English Channel.
The Gloucestershire Warwickshire Railway has three paid employees, A Chairman, a Chief financial officer, and a Operations director. Every other person involved is an unpaid volunteer.
Safety is of absolute paramount importance to a Heritage Railway, without it there is no railway.
Going slightly OT however do you know if one day loco 76077 will run again. It's the only example of the Standard 4 class not to have run in preservation. I believe it's still in ex Barry Scrapyard condition.
[QUOTE=TelevisionUser;83370000
]For what it's worth, I'd like to see a scrapping of the insanely expensive (£50 bn+) HS2 white elephant scheme with the monies to be spent instead making the UK's transport (rail + road) and bridge networks more resilient to extreme weather combined with a review of the rail network to see where it would be appropriate to extend new lines or reopen old ones given the changes in populations over the decades. For example, there's only one rail link into Cornwall and part of it runs right by the stormy English Channel.[/QUOTE]
The money for HS2 would/will be raised for that project. It's not cash in the bank that can be diverted anywhere.
Other projects won't be stopped because of it. Indeed, there are rather a lot of infrastructure upgrades going on and one limitation for things like electrification is a lack of specialist staff and equipment.
The Beeching cuts were a response to the rise in use of the car and a corresponding decline in rail travel. However, the statistics used back then were rough and inaccurate and so a third of the Beeching cuts were unjustified. Furthermore, the social aspect of keeping isolated communities connected to each other and to major towns wasn't even a factor and it should have been.
For what it's worth, I'd like to see a scrapping of the insanely expensive (£50 bn+) HS2 white elephant scheme with the monies to be spent instead making the UK's transport (rail + road) and bridge networks more resilient to extreme weather combined with a review of the rail network to see where it would be appropriate to extend new lines or reopen old ones given the changes in populations over the decades. For example, there's only one rail link into Cornwall and part of it runs right by the stormy English Channel.
If as claimed by some HS2 will only knock about 10mins of journey times, then I would also scrap HS2 but invest a lesser amount in expanding stations and adding more carriages to existing trains.
HS2 is about capacity. It relieves existing lines so people get a better service for shorter routes to stations currently getting a poor service. We need to build that, then crack on with more - like new faster, high capacity, lines to East Anglia, Wales, the South West etc.
In case people haven't noticed, many services are getting more carriages but there is a limit. 12 coaches is pretty much it for domestic services as that's already about a quarter of a kilometre!
New platforms and moving signalling isn't cheap, or always possible at all. Hence why it's easier to start with a blank canvas.
HS2 is about capacity. It relieves existing lines so people get a better service for shorter routes to stations currently getting a poor service. We need to build that, then crack on with more - like new faster, high capacity, lines to East Anglia, Wales, the South West etc.
In case people haven't noticed, many services are getting more carriages but there is a limit. 12 coaches is pretty much it for domestic services as that's already about a quarter of a kilometre!
New platforms and moving signalling isn't cheap, or always possible at all. Hence why it's easier to start with a blank canvas.
So basically reversing the Beeching philosophy of duplicate rail lines. I wonder if we had not closed the duplicates in the first place. Would the cost of running these lines over the last 40 years, be less than what HS2 is now going to cost us?
A guaranteed connection coach (National Express/Citylink type) from right outside the then newly closed branch line stations to the nearest mainline stations with through fares would have been better than there being no replacement public transport at all from day 1 of the closures.
An express coach has always been at least as good a quality of journey as a single carriage mark 1 train, would have been good as a connection service.
It was said in the Beeching Report that local bus and coach companies would provide a replacement service once the lines were closed.
It was known from Day 1 that was never going to happen.
Going slightly OT however do you know if one day loco 76077 will run again. It's the only example of the Standard 4 class not to have run in preservation. I believe it's still in ex Barry Scrapyard condition.
At the moment it is awaiting restoration, I've not heard anything to suggest that won't happen but, as with all things, it is time that we are short of!
The disused railway bridges were removed for mainly two reasons - the first being that they required varying degree of maintenance and secondly that they removed height restrictions on some of the roads.
One factor that was not taken into account was that the disused lines still required maintenance in terms of ensuring drainage culverts, cuttings and embankments were safe, so still cost money to manage but provided no benefit in return.
And I also believe there was an element of spite, especially as railways had been grouped together and therefore allowed managers with their origins in one old railway company to but the boot in on part of the system that once was run by their rivals.
That was also the case where dual-tracked lines were reduced to a single track as Kemble to Swindon was, although the original intention was to single to line from Swindon to Standish Junction but fortunately the protests were listened to which is why they were recently able to restore the line to dual-track again, the estimated cost savings.were vastly exaggerated because the fixed costs, culverts, bridges, embankments maintenance, etc, was still the same. In that context the savings from only having to maintain one track was negligible and were even less when the cost of lifting the other track and re-aligning the remaining one were taken in to account.
HS2 is about capacity. It relieves existing lines so people get a better service for shorter routes to stations currently getting a poor service. We need to build that, then crack on with more - like new faster, high capacity, lines to East Anglia, Wales, the South West etc.
If the Great Central Line hadn't have been closed that would have been perfect for upgrading to HS2 and at a fraction of the cost of what is now being proposed.
In case people haven't noticed, many services are getting more carriages but there is a limit. 12 coaches is pretty much it for domestic services as that's already about a quarter of a kilometre!
New platforms and moving signalling isn't cheap, or always possible at all. Hence why it's easier to start with a blank canvas.
That was the only drawback with the HST, it was a fixed length. Prior to that an engine pulling 12 or 13 carriages were common.
We have all these disused rail lines in my area and they are going to waste (except for the bike riders)
they are muddy and overgrown but they are a brilliant network joining villiages and towns together
if only they would make them decent enough for ordinary day to day cyclists, disabled scooters ect., or walkers who dont have to wear hiking boots to go on them
it would certainly be quicker and safer than some of the roads in my area
We've had two such routes properly paved and are very popular as a result. Only issue is that they're not lit so not so usable in the winter.
In fact, the popularity has probably resulted in more discussions about reinstating for a rail or tram way than might have happened if it was just left to rot.
So basically reversing the Beeching philosophy of duplicate rail lines. I wonder if we had not closed the duplicates in the first place. Would the cost of running these lines over the last 40 years, be less than what HS2 is now going to cost us?
There's no point in wasting time going over arguments from decades ago. We need to work with the network we have now. if we don't build HS2 then how would we add the extra capacity required? Upgrading existing line can only add so many extra passengers and the engineering works is very disruptive to services
But then the TGV could be coupled together to provide longer trains where needed...
All well and good, but if the platforms aren't long enough, the signal and junction placements aren't capable of handling longer trains then it's not as simple as 'just hook up another set guv'.
Most of the British railway network was built in Victorian times and updated immediately post war. The growth in traffic since privatisation has been significant, but putting in place infrastructure changes takes years to filter through.
Another reason we need to build new lines is the UK loading gauge and the fact our trains are so much more narrow than many European trains (especially places like Sweden).
Sweden can have 3+3 seating or 3+2 with the same 'comfort' we have with 2+2 seating. There's more standing room, more head room.. all round better for when moving lots of people, or their luggage.
All the ideas about upgrading existing lines pretty much mean longer trains and that's it. No wider trains and no double deck trains.
To upgrade existing lines would be so ridiculously expensive as to be impossible. All the anti-HS2 campaigners probably don't want that fact too well known, as one day we're going to need a new rail network and many existing lines will become classic/legacy lines. The WCML and ECML would be downgraded in importance as time goes on, but provide ample capacity for local users and freight.
Seeing how many lorries can be taken off the roads by freight trains, we need to also be looking to increasing capacity for the services most of us won't know run through the days (and nights).
Another reason we need to build new lines is the UK loading gauge and the fact our trains are so much more narrow than many European trains (especially places like Sweden).
Sweden can have 3+3 seating or 3+2 with the same 'comfort' we have with 2+2 seating. There's more standing room, more head room.. all round better for when moving lots of people, or their luggage.
All the ideas about upgrading existing lines pretty much mean longer trains and that's it. No wider trains and no double deck trains.
To upgrade existing lines would be so ridiculously expensive as to be impossible. All the anti-HS2 campaigners probably don't want that fact too well known, as one day we're going to need a new rail network and many existing lines will become classic/legacy lines. The WCML and ECML would be downgraded in importance as time goes on, but provide ample capacity for local users and freight.
Seeing how many lorries can be taken off the roads by freight trains, we need to also be looking to increasing capacity for the services most of us won't know run through the days (and nights).
What is ridiculously expensive is the folly that is HS2. The one thing that is certain is that what is currently quoted will be significantly lower than the final cost and it will probably end up years behind schedule, as government project usually are.
HS2 is likely to serve the privileged few, and those whose company buys the tickets, it won't benefit the majority.
Comments
Carmarthen - Aberystwyth will never happen. It simply doesn't make an economic case for itself.
It's approximately 45 miles - using Borders rail as an example that cost about £ 12m / mile, so your looking at about £ 500m to reinstate Carmarthen - Aberystwyth.
Bo'ness is on a heritage line that connects to the Glasgow to Edinburgh mainline.
Could proper rail services return to Bo'ness in the future?
The disused railway bridges were removed for mainly two reasons - the first being that they required varying degree of maintenance and secondly that they removed height restrictions on some of the roads.
One factor that was not taken into account was that the disused lines still required maintenance in terms of ensuring drainage culverts, cuttings and embankments were safe, so still cost money to manage but provided no benefit in return.
And I also believe there was an element of spite, especially as railways had been grouped together and therefore allowed managers with their origins in one old railway company to but the boot in on part of the system that once was run by their rivals.
You're probably right, but never say never
It shouldn't have been closed in the first place imv.
The Beeching cuts were a response to the rise in use of the car and a corresponding decline in rail travel. However, the statistics used back then were rough and inaccurate and so a third of the Beeching cuts were unjustified. Furthermore, the social aspect of keeping isolated communities connected to each other and to major towns wasn't even a factor and it should have been.
For what it's worth, I'd like to see a scrapping of the insanely expensive (£50 bn+) HS2 white elephant scheme with the monies to be spent instead making the UK's transport (rail + road) and bridge networks more resilient to extreme weather combined with a review of the rail network to see where it would be appropriate to extend new lines or reopen old ones given the changes in populations over the decades. For example, there's only one rail link into Cornwall and part of it runs right by the stormy English Channel.
Going slightly OT however do you know if one day loco 76077 will run again. It's the only example of the Standard 4 class not to have run in preservation. I believe it's still in ex Barry Scrapyard condition.
]For what it's worth, I'd like to see a scrapping of the insanely expensive (£50 bn+) HS2 white elephant scheme with the monies to be spent instead making the UK's transport (rail + road) and bridge networks more resilient to extreme weather combined with a review of the rail network to see where it would be appropriate to extend new lines or reopen old ones given the changes in populations over the decades. For example, there's only one rail link into Cornwall and part of it runs right by the stormy English Channel.[/QUOTE]
The money for HS2 would/will be raised for that project. It's not cash in the bank that can be diverted anywhere.
Other projects won't be stopped because of it. Indeed, there are rather a lot of infrastructure upgrades going on and one limitation for things like electrification is a lack of specialist staff and equipment.
If as claimed by some HS2 will only knock about 10mins of journey times, then I would also scrap HS2 but invest a lesser amount in expanding stations and adding more carriages to existing trains.
In case people haven't noticed, many services are getting more carriages but there is a limit. 12 coaches is pretty much it for domestic services as that's already about a quarter of a kilometre!
New platforms and moving signalling isn't cheap, or always possible at all. Hence why it's easier to start with a blank canvas.
So basically reversing the Beeching philosophy of duplicate rail lines. I wonder if we had not closed the duplicates in the first place. Would the cost of running these lines over the last 40 years, be less than what HS2 is now going to cost us?
Simple answer - no, for two reasons.
Firstly Bo'ness is a branch line from the mainline, so operationally would be a nightmare.
Secondly, Linlithgow station (which is on the mainline) is only 3 miles away so Bo'ness is hardly cut off from a rail link.
It was said in the Beeching Report that local bus and coach companies would provide a replacement service once the lines were closed.
It was known from Day 1 that was never going to happen.
That was also the case where dual-tracked lines were reduced to a single track as Kemble to Swindon was, although the original intention was to single to line from Swindon to Standish Junction but fortunately the protests were listened to which is why they were recently able to restore the line to dual-track again, the estimated cost savings.were vastly exaggerated because the fixed costs, culverts, bridges, embankments maintenance, etc, was still the same. In that context the savings from only having to maintain one track was negligible and were even less when the cost of lifting the other track and re-aligning the remaining one were taken in to account.
If the Great Central Line hadn't have been closed that would have been perfect for upgrading to HS2 and at a fraction of the cost of what is now being proposed.
That was the only drawback with the HST, it was a fixed length. Prior to that an engine pulling 12 or 13 carriages were common.
they are muddy and overgrown but they are a brilliant network joining villiages and towns together
if only they would make them decent enough for ordinary day to day cyclists, disabled scooters ect., or walkers who dont have to wear hiking boots to go on them
it would certainly be quicker and safer than some of the roads in my area
In fact, the popularity has probably resulted in more discussions about reinstating for a rail or tram way than might have happened if it was just left to rot.
There's no point in wasting time going over arguments from decades ago. We need to work with the network we have now. if we don't build HS2 then how would we add the extra capacity required? Upgrading existing line can only add so many extra passengers and the engineering works is very disruptive to services
Except the Mk3 coach (which the HST uses) has a seating capacity of about 75, whereas a Mk 1 / Mk2 coach was less than that, more commonly about 50.
So the HST actually needed fewer coaches to provide the same accommodation.
But then the TGV could be coupled together to provide longer trains where needed...
All well and good, but if the platforms aren't long enough, the signal and junction placements aren't capable of handling longer trains then it's not as simple as 'just hook up another set guv'.
Most of the British railway network was built in Victorian times and updated immediately post war. The growth in traffic since privatisation has been significant, but putting in place infrastructure changes takes years to filter through.
Sweden can have 3+3 seating or 3+2 with the same 'comfort' we have with 2+2 seating. There's more standing room, more head room.. all round better for when moving lots of people, or their luggage.
All the ideas about upgrading existing lines pretty much mean longer trains and that's it. No wider trains and no double deck trains.
To upgrade existing lines would be so ridiculously expensive as to be impossible. All the anti-HS2 campaigners probably don't want that fact too well known, as one day we're going to need a new rail network and many existing lines will become classic/legacy lines. The WCML and ECML would be downgraded in importance as time goes on, but provide ample capacity for local users and freight.
Seeing how many lorries can be taken off the roads by freight trains, we need to also be looking to increasing capacity for the services most of us won't know run through the days (and nights).
What is ridiculously expensive is the folly that is HS2. The one thing that is certain is that what is currently quoted will be significantly lower than the final cost and it will probably end up years behind schedule, as government project usually are.
HS2 is likely to serve the privileged few, and those whose company buys the tickets, it won't benefit the majority.