So was Matt Smith, and so was David Tennant. Do you really think the writers on season 5 were imagining a Doctor they had never seen before when they wrote the dialogue for those episodes or do you think they would have been imagining David Tennant? I can tell you the answer: it was the latter.
Here's an excercise for you: watch 'The Doctor's Wife', from Matt Smith's second season. Bear in mind when you watch it that when Neil Gaiman wrote the first few drafts of the script he had never seen Matt Smith play the part (it was originally commisioned for Smith's first season). In all of the scenes he would have pictured David Tennant in his head originally and he would have heard Tennant's voice saying the dialogue. It would have been impossible for him to imagine Matt Smith. Watch the episode and consider that fact: suddenly you will notice how very... Tennantey it all is.
It is one of the principle, long-held tenets of writing for Doctor Who that you write for the 'generic' Doctor and the actor adds the characterization pertinent to his interpretation. Robert Holmes, Terrance Dicks, Douglas Adams, and indeed Steven Moffat all espoused that approach. Don't even try and argue as if you know better than those great writers of the show. It won't wash.
Remember: they are all the same man. It is NOT a new character.
You can argue it when you know it is a writers trope. 12 speaks like 11 who in turn speaks like some other side characters who in turn speaks like Moffat's Sherlock.
His dialogue is the same. Very fast, very snappy. Quick interchanges with other characters. Rambling to themselves, questioning things they've just said.. Abrupt rudeness. All things that is Moffat's style. I'm not saying whether it's good or bad but Moffat certainly has a distinct style when it comes to dialogue. A style which he has essentially carried from 11 to 12 or so it seems from the first episode (I'm not talking as if I've seen the whole series).
The idea of writing for a generic Doctor is also BS. Yes it may start that way but once an actor has woven himself into the role of course they write for them. Even if Moffat doesn't realise it that much. Each Doctor has catchphrases specific to them and even ways of talking. Matt is known for bumbling sentences where he trips over himself, 10 was always the shouty type and 9 was far more subtle and darker than the two that came after.
It is a different character with the same face and the show has provided numerous examples of that. In the last DT ep he says it's like death, he dies and a new man swaggers off. In the Day of the Doctor Hurt's Doctor gets frustrated with Doctors they become and constantly criticise each other's clothes choices. When he regenerates he questions who he is, in Eleventh Hour Amy says "you're funny" and MS reples "Am I/ Funny is good" Why? Because they have different personalities. If it was always the same we wouldn't be seeing the Doctor go darker now in his new body.
Perhaps I'm being too unclear I guess my issue is more that it felt like general Moffat dialogue. As in yes 11 could have been saying it but so could his Sherlock. It just felt like a witty quote off more than an actual character. Other than pretty much the scene with and after 11 every dramatic scene was laced with some sort of witty quote that just took me out of the moment.
So was Matt Smith, and so was David Tennant. Do you really think the writers on season 5 were imagining a Doctor they had never seen before when they wrote the dialogue for those episodes or do you think they would have been imagining David Tennant? I can tell you the answer: it was the latter.
Here's an excercise for you: watch 'The Doctor's Wife', from Matt Smith's second season. Bear in mind when you watch it that when Neil Gaiman wrote the first few drafts of the script he had never seen Matt Smith play the part (it was originally commisioned for Smith's first season). In all of the scenes he would have pictured David Tennant in his head originally and he would have heard Tennant's voice saying the dialogue. It would have been impossible for him to imagine Matt Smith. Watch the episode and consider that fact: suddenly you will notice how very... Tennantey it all is.
It is one of the principle, long-held tenets of writing for Doctor Who that you write for the 'generic' Doctor and the actor adds the characterization pertinent to his interpretation. Robert Holmes, Terrance Dicks, Douglas Adams, and indeed Steven Moffat all espoused that approach. Don't even try and argue as if you know better than those great writers of the show. It won't wash.
Remember: they are all the same man. It is NOT a new character.
Could be an interesting idea for a thread in itself:
What episode does the way the Doctor acts/talks give you the impression that it was written for another Doctor?
(Ok that's way too long for a thread title, It took me ages to think of how to word it and I still didn't really do a good job )
I thought 11's "NOBODY HUMAN has ANYTHING to say to me today" was very obviously a tennant speech and didn't quite come off with Matt doing it.
Also in Day of the Doctor It was hugely obvious everything the War Doctor said was written for Eccleston.
Well Tom Baker had been the Doctor since I could remember. In fact It was such a shock when he changed into Peter Davison that I slid off the arm of the chair my little self had been sitting on and almost put my head through the glass kitchen door.
I spent the next few days in shock just turning what had happened over and over in my 10 year old mind trying to make sense of it. People didn't change faces, even on TV.
Despite that, Davison I took to immediately. Don't know why, I just accepted it.
Colin, it took me until Revelation of the Daleks to see him as THE Doctor. Thats not to say I didn't like what he was doing, just Davison was still tagged in my mind as The Doctor.
Sylvester, never really. I mean I saw signs of an acceptance in his excellent final season, and the portrayal of the character in Virgins NA.
I just think that excruciating and embarrassing first season of his and that appalling question mark pullover just knackered things for me. I could never get past them.
In fact they almost finished things for me with the show. I decided to give it one final chance, and I've honestly thought in the past, looking back, had they gone with the Greatest Show or Happiness Patrol rather than Remembrance to open S25, I would have walked and never looked back.
I would never have bothered watching NuWho as to my mind Dr Who would have been indelibly linked to Sylv's travesty of a 1st series. I would have just dismissed it as not for me.
Funny how such things can turn upon one moment isn't it? One little scheduling decision by the BBC kept me a fan.
McGann, it was probably after having a little time to reflect on the TV movie as well as some of the small number of novels the BBC had released already at that point. as well as a couple of comic strips.
Eccles, at times with the speeches and scenes in things like Dalek and Fathers Day I thought, 'yeah, this is The Doctor' but it was just too few and far between.
But the daft gormless grins and "Okey-dokey"s and "Helloooo"s just left me cold. The sad thing is, he did show enough to show that for me, he really could have been stellar.
Tennant, really by School Reunion, but that didn't mean his performance was a turn off before that, just by that episode he was The Man.
Matt, The Eleventh Hour, then I spent most of the rest of that series wondering if I had just imagined how good that episode had been.
The Cap, not bad but not great either. we'll see how long it will be before I do look at him and see "The Doctor".
(Gawd, I spent far too much time thinking what to write for a post that will just be ignored....)
Depends on the Doctor. I started watching with 7, so he was My Doctor. 8 won me over by the end of the TV Movie. 9 convinced me early in his first episode. I liked 10 by the end of his first episode, but it took a couple more for me to wholly accept him. 11 didn't feel like he was really the Doctor until late in his first season (Vincent and the Doctor). Capaldi had my loyalty right from "No sir... All thirteen!"
I had only seen 6 episodes by the time Tennant came around, so I wasn't massively attached to Eccleston. I was more fascinated with the regeneration process itself.
By the end of the episode I was definitely sold on Tennant in the role.
I wasn't too sure on Eleven at his first appearance, although his post-regeneration ranting was funny. Then the crashing and climbing and his chemistry with young Amy was drawing me in.
I think it was around the time he threw the plate of buttered bread out the door that I knew he was the Doctor.
Hurt's a weird case since he was a past Doctor. I guess when he was chatting with the moment, showing his more humorous side.
So I guess that makes humour the key factor.
As for Capaldi, I think I was with the program enough at this point to accept him right away [and the episode making such overt efforts to talk us into liking him via Clara was a little tiresome] but I think scene in the ally with the homeless man was the solidifying scene.
It's always been fairly instant with me. We are told who the next Doctor will be and what they will look like well in advance, so I tend to envisage different ways the actor will approach the role. By the time I see them on screen, it's not a great surprise. Plus there is enough continuity, the Tardis of course, foes, sometimes the same companion, to emphasise that it's the same Doctor in a different body.
Generally I just accept them straight away,after all they are The Doctor from then on.
The only one I had trouble with really was Ecclestone,I enjoyed his episodes but he's just not very Doctorish for me,and I never did quite warm to him
Matt was a great surprise though,I was a bit worried for him following such a popular Doctor and with all the "he's too young" press,but I thought he was fantastic from the 1st minutes.
Interesting his was a similar story to Davison a (too) young actor following an incredibly popular one,and he turned out to be one of my favourites as well.
Pertwee was the Doctor at the time when I first started watching.
Apart from thinking the Doctor had turned into a woman I can’t remember how I felt about Tom Bakers first episodes. I continued watching so he cant have freaked me out that much.
Peter Davison was the guy from All Creatures Great and Small so it took me a while to get used to him. Towards the end of his reign I had began to watch less. Found him a bit dull. With these modern DVD thingy ma bobs I can see he is quite a modern Doctor but in terms of production and story I can see how it failed to keep my interest as an early teen.
Colin Baker. I can’t recall taking to his Doctor or the show at all. Began watching less and less.
McCoy. The bizarre guy from Tiswas. A new Doctor so gave it a shot. Quickly stopped watching again.
McGann. Ok I suppose was my opinion at the time, still is.
Eccleston – Straight away and by the end of the series thought he was the best since Tom Baker. Still enjoy revisiting his era. Quite a dark Doctor under all the bravado.
Tennant – Straight away. Although he is clearly finding his feet during series 2 by series 3 and 4 he quickly became my favourite Doctor. For me he has turned in many wonderful performances. The most diverse Doctor in the most diverse era of the show.
Matt Smith – Straight away. Although his series 5 Doctor is his best by far (IMO)
He was still immensely watchable in series 6 and 7.
Probably one of the sweetest Doctors.
Capaldi – Looks extremely promising. With repeated viewings of Deep Breath I have found his performance mesmerising. But as with all great Doctors it is also down to the stories as well. So fingers crossed.
Well Tom Baker had been the Doctor since I could remember. In fact It was such a shock when he changed into Peter Davison that I slid off the arm of the chair my little self had been sitting on and almost put my head through the glass kitchen door.
I spent the next few days in shock just turning what had happened over and over in my 10 year old mind trying to make sense of it. People didn't change faces, even on TV.
Despite that, Davison I took to immediately. Don't know why, I just accepted it.
Colin, it took me until Revelation of the Daleks to see him as THE Doctor. Thats not to say I didn't like what he was doing, just Davison was still tagged in my mind as The Doctor.
Sylvester, never really. I mean I saw signs of an acceptance in his excellent final season, and the portrayal of the character in Virgins NA.
I just think that excruciating and embarrassing first season of his and that appalling question mark pullover just knackered things for me. I could never get past them.
In fact they almost finished things for me with the show. I decided to give it one final chance, and I've honestly thought in the past, looking back, had they gone with the Greatest Show or Happiness Patrol rather than Remembrance to open S25, I would have walked and never looked back.
I would never have bothered watching NuWho as to my mind Dr Who would have been indelibly linked to Sylv's travesty of a 1st series. I would have just dismissed it as not for me.
Funny how such things can turn upon one moment isn't it? One little scheduling decision by the BBC kept me a fan.
McGann, it was probably after having a little time to reflect on the TV movie as well as some of the small number of novels the BBC had released already at that point. as well as a couple of comic strips.
Eccles, at times with the speeches and scenes in things like Dalek and Fathers Day I thought, 'yeah, this is The Doctor' but it was just too few and far between.
But the daft gormless grins and "Okey-dokey"s and "Helloooo"s just left me cold. The sad thing is, he did show enough to show that for me, he really could have been stellar.
Tennant, really by School Reunion, but that didn't mean his performance was a turn off before that, just by that episode he was The Man.
Matt, The Eleventh Hour, then I spent most of the rest of that series wondering if I had just imagined how good that episode had been.
The Cap, not bad but not great either. we'll see how long it will be before I do look at him and see "The Doctor".
(Gawd, I spent far too much time thinking what to write for a post that will just be ignored....)
You can still see the hallmarks of the fact that he is still the doctor in every incarnation, because he as a deeper person remains entirely the same man, it's just his surface personality and quirks (and obviously appearance) which change.
Adapting to these changes in his outer eccentricities and his appearance can vary depending on the doctor, but for me, as a general rule it's usually the second episode. Episode 1 is always the doctor plagued with what I think of as 'regeneration brain' where he's not really himself and it can be hard to get a complete overview of what future episodes with this doctor will be like, but episode 2 he is 'fully cooked' so to speak and you get to actually see the full extent of the man he will be for the remainder of the incarnation.
With Capaldi, I think I like him, but I'm not 100% sure yet, but as I said, episode 2 looks like he will fully be 12 as he will be from now on, so I think it will give more scope to get to know him.
I'm old enough to have seen them ALL!
My most amazing time was seeing William Hartnell change to Patrick Troughton.....but within two weeks Pat was MY Doctor!
Same with the rest really....until David Tennant took on the role! I thought (and still do) he was the BEST Doctor to play the part (apart from Patrick!!) and I still do now!
Peter Capaldi....GOOD so far - he's certainly better than Matt anyway! (Sorry Matt!)
I suppose for me it depends upon how 'attached' I was to the previous one. Probably a bit of a poor reason. I grew up with Tom Baker and when Davidson came along I just couldn't take it (I was about 12) and faded away from Doctor Who just dipping in and out.
From 2005 onwards I loved Eccleston immediately, hated Tennants doctor and missed most of his first series. Then gave myself a good talking too, watched it, caught up and grew to really love his Doctor.
I was never really into Matt''s Doctor for reasons I can't explain and was probably one of the few that didn't really take to the 'Eleventh Hour'. I watched and enjoyed the show but didn't get upset when he regenerated and now I have instantly taken to Peter as The Doctor.
I suppose for me it depends upon how 'attached' I was to the previous one. Probably a bit of a poor reason. I grew up with Tom Baker and when Davidson came along I just couldn't take it (I was about 12) and faded away from Doctor Who just dipping in and out.
From 2005 onwards I loved Eccleston immediately, hated Tennants doctor and missed most of his first series. Then gave myself a good talking too, watched it, caught up and grew to really love his Doctor.
I was never really into Matt''s Doctor for reasons I can't explain and was probably one of the few that didn't really take to the 'Eleventh Hour'. I watched and enjoyed the show but didn't get upset when he regenerated and now I have instantly taken to Peter as The Doctor.
To each ones own
I don't think that is a poor reason. I think you may have hit the nail on the head. its partly how attached you are to them which can affect how long you see them for and its up to the new actor and the show writing to eat into that affection and supplant it.
Comments
You can argue it when you know it is a writers trope. 12 speaks like 11 who in turn speaks like some other side characters who in turn speaks like Moffat's Sherlock.
His dialogue is the same. Very fast, very snappy. Quick interchanges with other characters. Rambling to themselves, questioning things they've just said.. Abrupt rudeness. All things that is Moffat's style. I'm not saying whether it's good or bad but Moffat certainly has a distinct style when it comes to dialogue. A style which he has essentially carried from 11 to 12 or so it seems from the first episode (I'm not talking as if I've seen the whole series).
The idea of writing for a generic Doctor is also BS. Yes it may start that way but once an actor has woven himself into the role of course they write for them. Even if Moffat doesn't realise it that much. Each Doctor has catchphrases specific to them and even ways of talking. Matt is known for bumbling sentences where he trips over himself, 10 was always the shouty type and 9 was far more subtle and darker than the two that came after.
It is a different character with the same face and the show has provided numerous examples of that. In the last DT ep he says it's like death, he dies and a new man swaggers off. In the Day of the Doctor Hurt's Doctor gets frustrated with Doctors they become and constantly criticise each other's clothes choices. When he regenerates he questions who he is, in Eleventh Hour Amy says "you're funny" and MS reples "Am I/ Funny is good" Why? Because they have different personalities. If it was always the same we wouldn't be seeing the Doctor go darker now in his new body.
Perhaps I'm being too unclear I guess my issue is more that it felt like general Moffat dialogue. As in yes 11 could have been saying it but so could his Sherlock. It just felt like a witty quote off more than an actual character. Other than pretty much the scene with and after 11 every dramatic scene was laced with some sort of witty quote that just took me out of the moment.
Could be an interesting idea for a thread in itself:
What episode does the way the Doctor acts/talks give you the impression that it was written for another Doctor?
(Ok that's way too long for a thread title, It took me ages to think of how to word it and I still didn't really do a good job
I thought 11's "NOBODY HUMAN has ANYTHING to say to me today" was very obviously a tennant speech and didn't quite come off with Matt doing it.
Also in Day of the Doctor It was hugely obvious everything the War Doctor said was written for Eccleston.
I spent the next few days in shock just turning what had happened over and over in my 10 year old mind trying to make sense of it. People didn't change faces, even on TV.
Despite that, Davison I took to immediately. Don't know why, I just accepted it.
Colin, it took me until Revelation of the Daleks to see him as THE Doctor. Thats not to say I didn't like what he was doing, just Davison was still tagged in my mind as The Doctor.
Sylvester, never really. I mean I saw signs of an acceptance in his excellent final season, and the portrayal of the character in Virgins NA.
I just think that excruciating and embarrassing first season of his and that appalling question mark pullover just knackered things for me. I could never get past them.
In fact they almost finished things for me with the show. I decided to give it one final chance, and I've honestly thought in the past, looking back, had they gone with the Greatest Show or Happiness Patrol rather than Remembrance to open S25, I would have walked and never looked back.
I would never have bothered watching NuWho as to my mind Dr Who would have been indelibly linked to Sylv's travesty of a 1st series. I would have just dismissed it as not for me.
Funny how such things can turn upon one moment isn't it? One little scheduling decision by the BBC kept me a fan.
McGann, it was probably after having a little time to reflect on the TV movie as well as some of the small number of novels the BBC had released already at that point. as well as a couple of comic strips.
Eccles, at times with the speeches and scenes in things like Dalek and Fathers Day I thought, 'yeah, this is The Doctor' but it was just too few and far between.
But the daft gormless grins and "Okey-dokey"s and "Helloooo"s just left me cold. The sad thing is, he did show enough to show that for me, he really could have been stellar.
Tennant, really by School Reunion, but that didn't mean his performance was a turn off before that, just by that episode he was The Man.
Matt, The Eleventh Hour, then I spent most of the rest of that series wondering if I had just imagined how good that episode had been.
The Cap, not bad but not great either. we'll see how long it will be before I do look at him and see "The Doctor".
(Gawd, I spent far too much time thinking what to write for a post that will just be ignored....)
By the end of the episode I was definitely sold on Tennant in the role.
I wasn't too sure on Eleven at his first appearance, although his post-regeneration ranting was funny. Then the crashing and climbing and his chemistry with young Amy was drawing me in.
I think it was around the time he threw the plate of buttered bread out the door that I knew he was the Doctor.
Hurt's a weird case since he was a past Doctor. I guess when he was chatting with the moment, showing his more humorous side.
So I guess that makes humour the key factor.
As for Capaldi, I think I was with the program enough at this point to accept him right away [and the episode making such overt efforts to talk us into liking him via Clara was a little tiresome] but I think scene in the ally with the homeless man was the solidifying scene.
The only one I had trouble with really was Ecclestone,I enjoyed his episodes but he's just not very Doctorish for me,and I never did quite warm to him
Matt was a great surprise though,I was a bit worried for him following such a popular Doctor and with all the "he's too young" press,but I thought he was fantastic from the 1st minutes.
Interesting his was a similar story to Davison a (too) young actor following an incredibly popular one,and he turned out to be one of my favourites as well.
Apart from thinking the Doctor had turned into a woman I can’t remember how I felt about Tom Bakers first episodes. I continued watching so he cant have freaked me out that much.
Peter Davison was the guy from All Creatures Great and Small so it took me a while to get used to him. Towards the end of his reign I had began to watch less. Found him a bit dull. With these modern DVD thingy ma bobs I can see he is quite a modern Doctor but in terms of production and story I can see how it failed to keep my interest as an early teen.
Colin Baker. I can’t recall taking to his Doctor or the show at all. Began watching less and less.
McCoy. The bizarre guy from Tiswas. A new Doctor so gave it a shot. Quickly stopped watching again.
McGann. Ok I suppose was my opinion at the time, still is.
Eccleston – Straight away and by the end of the series thought he was the best since Tom Baker. Still enjoy revisiting his era. Quite a dark Doctor under all the bravado.
Tennant – Straight away. Although he is clearly finding his feet during series 2 by series 3 and 4 he quickly became my favourite Doctor. For me he has turned in many wonderful performances. The most diverse Doctor in the most diverse era of the show.
Matt Smith – Straight away. Although his series 5 Doctor is his best by far (IMO)
He was still immensely watchable in series 6 and 7.
Probably one of the sweetest Doctors.
Capaldi – Looks extremely promising. With repeated viewings of Deep Breath I have found his performance mesmerising. But as with all great Doctors it is also down to the stories as well. So fingers crossed.
Oopps...back to work.
FWIW Good post!
Adapting to these changes in his outer eccentricities and his appearance can vary depending on the doctor, but for me, as a general rule it's usually the second episode. Episode 1 is always the doctor plagued with what I think of as 'regeneration brain' where he's not really himself and it can be hard to get a complete overview of what future episodes with this doctor will be like, but episode 2 he is 'fully cooked' so to speak and you get to actually see the full extent of the man he will be for the remainder of the incarnation.
With Capaldi, I think I like him, but I'm not 100% sure yet, but as I said, episode 2 looks like he will fully be 12 as he will be from now on, so I think it will give more scope to get to know him.
My most amazing time was seeing William Hartnell change to Patrick Troughton.....but within two weeks Pat was MY Doctor!
Same with the rest really....until David Tennant took on the role! I thought (and still do) he was the BEST Doctor to play the part (apart from Patrick!!) and I still do now!
Peter Capaldi....GOOD so far - he's certainly better than Matt anyway! (Sorry Matt!)
From 2005 onwards I loved Eccleston immediately, hated Tennants doctor and missed most of his first series. Then gave myself a good talking too, watched it, caught up and grew to really love his Doctor.
I was never really into Matt''s Doctor for reasons I can't explain and was probably one of the few that didn't really take to the 'Eleventh Hour'. I watched and enjoyed the show but didn't get upset when he regenerated and now I have instantly taken to Peter as The Doctor.
To each ones own
Tennant I was pretty neutral up until ''School Reunion'' which was when he grew on me.
Smith I loved from his ''Is this world protected speech'' onwards.
As for Capaldi, he became THE Doctor with the glare he gave to the camera after (possibly) killing half-face.