Game of Thrones S3 (US Pace, Spoilers)

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  • CadivaCadiva Posts: 18,411
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    A question I have is; GRRM finishes the books. The series reaches the last book and tells that story...does the TV show continue on? Does GRRM help continue the series on with a world set AFTER the books?

    Not that I'm aware of, unless they adapt the Dunk n Egg books which is a prequel to what's occurring in A Song of Ice and Fire on screen atm.
  • brangdonbrangdon Posts: 14,092
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    A question I have is; GRRM finishes the books. The series reaches the last book and tells that story...does the TV show continue on? Does GRRM help continue the series on with a world set AFTER the books?
    No.I think the books are going to end with everyone dead.
  • SliverOfDiamondSliverOfDiamond Posts: 1,465
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    brangdon wrote: »
    No.I think the books are going to end with everyone dead.

    And the white walkers usher in a new Ice Age.

    The sad thing is I can just see that happening, given all the death and destruction so far.
  • CorwinCorwin Posts: 16,588
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    Something familiar about this quest in video game Borderlands 2.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 2,945
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    reading over the last few pages - wow. some people need to chill. i'm not going to waste time getting in on it, because, honestly...i don't care. when the books come, they come. i don't give two figs about his motivations for writing them and i'm not going grey worrying about when they're published.

    but just to clarify a point about the books we DO have and how they relate to the tv show which seemed to be causing some confusion earlier;
    a feast for crows and dance with dragons are two huge books which DO focus on different characters - that is to say, certain characters are omitted entirely from AFFC, and then focused on in DWD. conversely, characters that are focused on in AFFC are not included throughout DWD, until they begin to appear later on in the volume (note: DWD is split into two books, parts 1&2, the same way SOS is).
    the reason for this is because GRRM took a different approach for writing these books, as i believe he discovered those focused on in Dance had too much story....
    so what happened was, instead of splitting the books CHRONOLOGICALLY...he instead decided to splitt them up based on CHARACTER. hence, the starting point of BOTH BOOKS is the same point in time for the series, but focusing on different stories/characters for each at that point of time.

    therefore, when the characters from the 4th book slowly begin being introduced into the 5th book, it means that the timelines have caught up to the same point again.

    i hope i've made that clear first off.

    now, how that relates to the tv show, is that D&D and stated that they are scrapping that format, and instead taking material from both books simultaneously to tell a more complete story chronologically. SOS is the last book from which they are thinking "book=season" (or in it's case, 1/2 book=season). from S5 onwards, their job becomes much much harder.

    so basically, to sum up.....anybody saying that the tv show's going to lose/ignore half it's characters for entire seasons to focus on new ones is completely bullshitting.
    (new characters ARE introduced, sure, but they always are:rolleyes: the core cast of the show will always be maintained throughout)
  • TommyNookaTommyNooka Posts: 2,396
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    scamrasc wrote: »
    reading over the last few pages - wow. some people need to chill. i'm not going to waste time getting in on it, because, honestly...i don't care. when the books come, they come. i don't give two figs about his motivations for writing them and i'm not going grey worrying about when they're published.

    but just to clarify a point about the books we DO have and how they relate to the tv show which seemed to be causing some confusion earlier;
    a feast for crows and dance with dragons are two huge books which DO focus on different characters - that is to say, certain characters are omitted entirely from AFFC, and then focused on in DWD. conversely, characters that are focused on in AFFC are not included throughout DWD, until they begin to appear later on in the volume (note: DWD is split into two books, parts 1&2, the same way SOS is).
    the reason for this is because GRRM took a different approach for writing these books, as i believe he discovered those focused on in Dance had too much story....
    so what happened was, instead of splitting the books CHRONOLOGICALLY...he instead decided to splitt them up based on CHARACTER. hence, the starting point of BOTH BOOKS is the same point in time for the series, but focusing on different stories/characters for each at that point of time.

    therefore, when the characters from the 4th book slowly begin being introduced into the 5th book, it means that the timelines have caught up to the same point again.

    i hope i've made that clear first off.

    now, how that relates to the tv show, is that D&D and stated that they are scrapping that format, and instead taking material from both books simultaneously to tell a more complete story chronologically. SOS is the last book from which they are thinking "book=season" (or in it's case, 1/2 book=season). from S5 onwards, their job becomes much much harder.

    so basically, to sum up.....anybody saying that the tv show's going to lose/ignore half it's characters for entire seasons to focus on new ones is completely bullshitting.
    (new characters ARE introduced, sure, but they always are:rolleyes: the core cast of the show will always be maintained throughout
    )

    I don't think this is the issue at all, we know characters won't go missing as they do in the books the problem is giving them something worthwhile to do because there is very little of that in the last 2 books. The show producers will have to create there own storylines, that isn't just speculation, it is inevitable.
    I'll use Bran as an example, he doesn't have enough material to fill an entire episode never mind stretching it over several seasons. Theon has already started his DWD storyline, are they going to drag that out for another 2/3 seasons? Highly doubtful.
  • brangdonbrangdon Posts: 14,092
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    I could see Theon disappearing for a while. The show has done enough; they can leave the rest to our imagination.
  • CadivaCadiva Posts: 18,411
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    TommyNooka wrote: »
    I don't think this is the issue at all, we know characters won't go missing as they do in the books the problem is giving them something worthwhile to do because there is very little of that in the last 2 books. The show producers will have to create there own storylines, that isn't just speculation, it is inevitable.

    I don't see why it's inevitable that they're going to be making up storylines. They've already adapted aspects of the storyline from later books because it's suited their chronological telling of the tale on TV, I suspect they'll just continue to do the same thing.
  • Sara_PeplowSara_Peplow Posts: 1,579
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    Looking forward to reading the final two books winds of winter. Favourite characters are danerys,tyrion and jon. Reckon at least one will survive.
  • TommyNookaTommyNooka Posts: 2,396
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    Cadiva wrote: »
    I don't see why it's inevitable that they're going to be making up storylines. They've already adapted aspects of the storyline from later books because it's suited their chronological telling of the tale on TV, I suspect they'll just continue to do the same thing.

    As you say yourself they have already adapted storylines from later books so what are they going to be left with to 'continue doing the same thing'?

    I think next season will be fine as there is plenty of material from ASOS to keep the series interesting but they hit serious problems when everyone is either travelling or sitting around not doing much. The most they are going to get out of the plotlines (I use the term loosely when referring to AFFC/ADWD) from the next 2 books is one season and even then they will have to add their own material.
    Think about the plots surrounding Arya, Bran and Sansa in particular, they do next to nothing in the later books. Their POV's are bulked up by internal monologues and florid descriptions which works well in a book but......
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 1,155
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    The difference is that with the TV show you can move out of POV. So you can show what one of the main characters is doing (even if it isn't much) and describe those actions using another characters POV for example:
    Theon really won't do much for the next season, however it looks like they will have Yara searching for him instead. This keeps both characters storylines alive in a more active way
  • CadivaCadiva Posts: 18,411
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    The difference is that with the TV show you can move out of POV. So you can show what one of the main characters is doing (even if it isn't much) and describe those actions using another characters POV for example:
    Theon really won't do much for the next season, however it looks like they will have Yara searching for him instead. This keeps both characters storylines alive in a more active way

    Exactly. There's plenty enough story to go around without them having to make up anything.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 2,945
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    TommyNooka wrote: »
    As you say yourself they have already adapted storylines from later books so what are they going to be left with to 'continue doing the same thing'?

    I think next season will be fine as there is plenty of material from ASOS to keep the series interesting but they hit serious problems when everyone is either travelling or sitting around not doing much. The most they are going to get out of the plotlines (I use the term loosely when referring to AFFC/ADWD) from the next 2 books is one season and even then they will have to add their own material.
    Think about the plots surrounding Arya, Bran and Sansa in particular, they do next to nothing in the later books. Their POV's are bulked up by internal monologues and florid descriptions which works well in a book but......

    i see absolutely no difference in how they're going to handle characters in upcoming seasons than what they have already done.

    like i said before, the writers have stated that they're going to combine and mold the next books together and deal with the characters storylines by sorting their material chronologically.

    i'm going to spoiler this bit, as this is discussing characters in future books, meaning they don't die anytime soon, and that info is completely unfair to non-readers in this thread (others please do the same. i maintain that book discussion is allowed in here as it has always been present, but spoilers are not, and some can be very easy to forget that they are actually a spoiler)
    some characters - dany inparticular, who gets boring as all ****, theon, bran and perhaps arya will probably be the hardest to adapt, but once again, that's nothing new. (i disagree about sansa. the later books are when she finally actually gets something to do, grows up a bit and becomes somewhat likeable...a bit.)

    ok - back to talking about past seasons events.
    dany had an atrocious season 2 in which she was given FAR too much screentime (they really messed up with her in that season....and tbh, even though i like all the actors on this show, emila clarke's constant melodramatic screaming throughout that season didn't really help that). theon had far too much unnecessary screentime this season too. arya's not had much action this season (though maisie has been an absolute star with still making those few emotional moments engaging). bran has had literally no storyline since jaime pushed him out that window. all through this season both arya and bran have done nothing but travel and witness the action occuring with other characters from the ouskirts. jon also got short changed in season 2 and the 1st half of S3 (but that was mostly from a lack of screentime and changing the actual character himself into......an idiot! (seriously D&D - jon's smart in the books. he's quick and savvy and has an ability to see the larger picture. he earns the respect of those older and more powerful than he. please...fix this asap.....please!).

    i could go on, but basically.....it's nothing new!!! there are always characters that have more to do than others at any given point. but hey - that's what happens when you have about 40 gazillion characters to juggle. AND MORE COMING IN!!! their individual stories will present as they always have - in oscillating waves, balancing the goings on between different sequences.
    what exactly do you think the roughly 2500-3000 pages of books 4&5 consisted of? i've already granted that
    dany and bran's
    chapters are mind-numbingly dull, but the rest of the characters have more complete and engaging arcs, and even those two can be spruced up easily enough (one inparticular with elements of the supernatural). but there's plenty of material in there to make several seasons!!! the show does not consist of only 3 or 4 characters fgs.
  • SliverOfDiamondSliverOfDiamond Posts: 1,465
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    I didn't find anyone's chapters 'mind numbingly dull'. They were interesting and growing the characters, illustrating their stories, and moving them around the Game of Thrones board.

    I've found the whole thing totally intriguing. What I don't understand is how some readers appear to want frantic and intense action, with all characters, all the time. Stories don't work like that, there has to be character growth and scene setting at some point, some people seem to be unable to tolerate anything that isn't moving at 100 miles an hour, I really don't understand why.
  • Sniffle774Sniffle774 Posts: 20,290
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    Looking forward to reading the final two books winds of winter. Favourite characters are danerys,tyrion and jon. Reckon at least one will survive.

    GRRM is laughing at you... :D. After the last series I wouldn't put any money on anyone surviving...well accept from Hodor ofc.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 2,945
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    I didn't find anyone's chapters 'mind numbingly dull'. They were interesting and growing the characters, illustrating their stories, and moving them around the Game of Thrones board.

    I've found the whole thing totally intriguing. What I don't understand is how some readers appear to want frantic and intense action, with all characters, all the time. Stories don't work like that, there has to be character growth and scene setting at some point, some people seem to be unable to tolerate anything that isn't moving at 100 miles an hour, I really don't understand why.

    i agree with you about not wanting fast-paced action all the time (which goes back to what i said in my previous post about that occuring in waves for different characters), but i stand by what i said about the 2 POV chapters i found utterly terrible in the last books...because for the vast majority of their chapters, they didn't do anything, and they didn't advance their stories or go through any real growth up until the end. on the whole it's a matter of opinion (seriously - there's only so many pages of in depth description of clothing that i can take), but GRRM has openly stated that he got stuck with one of them inparticular and wound up in a hole where that character had to sit in limbo while he stalled them for a bit in order to advance the others. that characters story was never originally supposed to drag on and on like that. he just didn't know what else to do with them in the mean time.
  • blueisthecolourblueisthecolour Posts: 20,124
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    People on here are getting very close to ignoring the 'no spoilers' element of the thread. This sort of talk should be saved for the 'i've read all the books' one.
  • Arwen_EvenstarArwen_Evenstar Posts: 801
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    I realise book discussion does sometimes link into the actual TV show, but there has been an awful lot of book chat here!
  • SliverOfDiamondSliverOfDiamond Posts: 1,465
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    scamrasc wrote: »
    i agree with you about not wanting fast-paced action all the time (which goes back to what i said in my previous post about that occuring in waves for different characters), but i stand by what i said about the 2 POV chapters i found utterly terrible in the last books...because for the vast majority of their chapters, they didn't do anything, and they didn't advance their stories or go through any real growth up until the end. on the whole it's a matter of opinion (seriously - there's only so many pages of in depth description of clothing that i can take), but GRRM has openly stated that he got stuck with one of them inparticular and wound up in a hole where that character had to sit in limbo while he stalled them for a bit in order to advance the others. that characters story was never originally supposed to drag on and on like that. he just didn't know what else to do with them in the mean time.

    That's where we differ, I like detailed description, no matter what it is of - food they're eating, clothing, faces, anything that can add to the picture I have in my head. I also didn't mind the character getting mired up, because they had to deal with all kinds of different situations whilst there. As you say it's all subjective, you get bored with the same chapters that add colour and detail to me.
  • CadivaCadiva Posts: 18,411
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    That's where we differ, I like detailed description, no matter what it is of - food they're eating, clothing, faces, anything that can add to the picture I have in my head. I also didn't mind the character getting mired up, because they had to deal with all kinds of different situations whilst there. As you say it's all subjective, you get bored with the same chapters that add colour and detail to me.

    I agree and I think it is that very attention to detail which make ASOIAF such a success and such a vivid world for both the book reader and to be used for a brilliant TV adaptation. All the information required is there in the narrative.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 357
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    That's where we differ, I like detailed description, no matter what it is of - food they're eating, clothing, faces, anything that can add to the picture I have in my head. I also didn't mind the character getting mired up, because they had to deal with all kinds of different situations whilst there. As you say it's all subjective, you get bored with the same chapters that add colour and detail to me.
    Cadiva wrote: »
    I agree and I think it is that very attention to detail which make ASOIAF such a success and such a vivid world for both the book reader and to be used for a brilliant TV adaptation. All the information required is there in the narrative.

    The first three books managed to create a vivid and detailed world without so much excessive detail and filler concerning food and clothing constantly. When there's a whole chapter with consistent and pointless description of turtles and little plot/character development from it, you begin to wonder what the point is. Of course, pretty much every reader enjoys description and details in a story because they're important for creating a world that feels read (that's obvious) but there is a thing as too much detail.
  • ParthenonParthenon Posts: 7,499
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    Have just finished watching all 3 seasons and all I can say is wow! Undoubtedly one of the best TV shows I've ever seen (haven't read the books but fully intend to now). It was bad enough when they killed off Ned Stark but the Robb killing was so quick and brutal! You've got to admire a show that is willing to kill off any character at any time. So many jaw-dropping moments it's hard to count, and equally as many brilliant one-liners. "You just sent the most powerful man in Westeros to bed without any supper." :D Tywin is such a boss and Tyrion is definitely my favourite character. Cersei provides some cracking one-liners too, but for some reason she seems to wear the same facial expression permanently!

    Can't wait for Season 4 now. It feels like the show is just starting to get going.
  • TommyNookaTommyNooka Posts: 2,396
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    That's where we differ, I like detailed description, no matter what it is of - food they're eating, clothing, faces, anything that can add to the picture I have in my head. I also didn't mind the character getting mired up, because they had to deal with all kinds of different situations whilst there. As you say it's all subjective, you get bored with the same chapters that add colour and detail to me.

    I'll never understand this argument, everyone enjoys a little detail in their stories it's what creates the 'other world' we live in when reading but when you start getting to the levels of description GRRM has to detriment of the plot I think you'd be as well reading an encyclopaedia.
    George obviously knows his fanbase well since the next ASOIAF release will be an encyclopaedia of irrelevant information.
  • SliverOfDiamondSliverOfDiamond Posts: 1,465
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    TommyNooka wrote: »
    I'll never understand this argument, everyone enjoys a little detail in their stories it's what creates the 'other world' we live in when reading but when you start getting to the levels of description GRRM has to detriment of the plot I think you'd be as well reading an encyclopaedia.
    George obviously knows his fanbase well since the next ASOIAF release will be an encyclopaedia of irrelevant information.

    And what, exactly is wrong with reading an encyclopaedia? What, precisely, do you imagine an encyclopaedia is for?

    You see I don't agree that the levels of detail are detrimental to the plot at all, I got so into the story that I didn't notice too much detail, it just added to the pictures in my head. I guess those who are criticising don't read the same way I, and clearly others, do; I fail totally to understand the argument that too much detail necessarily detracts from 'the plot' (which one? there are dozens in these books), and in this case, for me, it didn't.

    I guess the fact that GRRM is coming out with an encyclopaedia and you consider the information in it to be irrelevant shows that you really haven't engaged with the world that has been created, so it's not surprising that you consider that this work has too much detail. I guess there are always going to be those who want a fast novel of a couple of hundred pages or so, and then they're onto the next.

    I didn't like the books I've read by David Gemmell, (apart from Legend), for exactly the opposite reason, they appear to me to be lightweight fluff. I don't want to read books like that, I only read 5 in the end, but clearly people do, or his books wouldn't be so popular.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 357
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    And what, exactly is wrong with reading an encyclopaedia? What, precisely, do you imagine an encyclopaedia is for?

    Nothing is wrong with reading an encyclopedia. That's not his argument. He's basically saying the point of a novel is to progress the story and characters- not indulge too much in unnecessary description and details. I've found the general feeling towards the last two books (from friends and forums) that there is little plot development (especially in the fifth book, compared to the first three novels), and there's a lot of focus on travelling to places.

    Lots of characters spend many chapters travelling to places, rather than actually getting to places and doing things to progress the story. In these travel diaries, we got loads of details about locations that end up being completely unnecessary. In the first book, Catelyn travels to Kings Landing and we do not have three chapters of pointless and indulgent information about the locations she visited on her travels because it wasn't important for the story.

    Your argument is pretty flawed anyway. The unnecessary detail is detrimental to the plot at times (can't specify which ones for obvious reasons, but you've read the books. You'll know which chapters drag on for a while.) because character and plot progression are being sacrificed for unnecessary details about the world the author has created. In the fifth book, many characters have particular aims and goals they want to achieve- and many do not reach them by the end of the book and are still heading towards them. 1500 pages later...

    Also, just because I do not want to read an encyclopedia of the novels, that doesn't mean I'm not engaged with the novels. For example, I love Star Wars but do I really need to know about the local wildlife and plants of the planet Naboo? Not really, because it's not important for understanding and engaging with the overall story and characters. Same with the books in question. That doesn't make me a person with little attention span who wants a lightweight, fast paced novel like you seem to suggest. Enjoying unnecessary detail doesn't make you a superior person either.

    Call me old fashioned but as a reader, I'd rather see the story and characters progress but whatever, I'm sure the far more superior and intellectual readers will enjoy reading about turtles, travel diaries and food, rather than interesting plot and character developments.

    p.s this post seems a bit negative, but I did like A Feast For Crows and A Dance With Dragons. Well, the 50% of it where things actually happened. The other 50% filler could have been trimmed from the novel with no consequence.
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