Well, the "angst" could have somrthing to do with hundreds of thousands of people in the public and private sectors losing their jobs, a cutting of local authority services the like of which we haven't seen before, and the beginning of the end for the NHS.
Is that enough for starters?
I'm terribly sorry, but if your idea of returning public spending to 2007 levels amounts to 'the like of which we haven't seen before and the beginning of the end for the NHS', you really do need to get your hype-ometer recalibrated. Calm down.
I'm terribly sorry, but if your idea of returning public spending to 2007 levels amounts to 'the like of which we haven't seen before and the beginning of the end for the NHS', you really do need to get your hype-ometer recalibrated. Calm down.
Correct me if I'm wrong Andy, but I'm guessing that you are not on of the 200,000 people currently in danger of losing their job!
Correct me if I'm wrong Andy, but I'm guessing that you are not on of the 200,000 people currently in danger of losing their job!
Many of us were in that situation 2 or 3 years ago at the start of the recession. Jobs were cut, there were widescale pay freezes and our pensions were slashed. Where was the swell of union support then?
It does appear that now the public sector have been asked to take their turn, suddenly the unions jump into action
Many of us were in that situation 2 or 3 years ago at the start of the recession. Jobs were cut, there were widescale pay freezes and our pensions were slashed. Where was the swell of union support then?
It does appear that now the public sector have been asked to take their turn, suddenly the unions jump into action
You're not thinking of British Airways are you? As the right wing economist Milton Friedman accurately maintained, you can't blame unions for taking action to protect their position. They represent the supply of labour and they will act accordingly to protect thier interests. This is the same across all sectors but of course in the public sector unions are stronger on the whole.
This is the heart of the question about socio-political impact really, because the government may be seen as being directly responsible for that impact.
You're not thinking of British Airways are you? As the right wing economist Milton Friedman accurately maintained, you can't blame unions for taking action to protect their position. They represent the supply of labour and they will act accordingly to protect thier interests. This is the same across all sectors but of course in the public sector unions are stronger on the whole.
This is the heart of the question about socio-political impact really, because the government may be seen as being directly responsible for that impact.
No not BA, I'm thinking about when the bank I worked for did all of the things that I mentioned in my post above and the union didn't want to know. One of the very same unions who were there yesterday and very vocal.
It seems that all union members are supposedly equal but public sector members are more equal than the others
Yeah, but the coalition is going beyond that and attempting to privatise everything in sight. That's what concerns many people. They have absolutely no mandate for this.
Total rubbish. They are not going to privatise the health service. Do you have any evidence they are "privatising everything in sight", or is that just more leftie scaremongering from people who have no idea what government intend to? And the left always loved bashing the Daily Mail for sensationalism and fearmongering. How ironic. Plus, they do have a mandate - it was a hung parliament and a coalition is a perfectly legitimate outcome. You see them all over Europe for god's sake.
I'm terribly sorry, but if your idea of returning public spending to 2007 levels amounts to 'the like of which we haven't seen before and the beginning of the end for the NHS', you really do need to get your hype-ometer recalibrated. Calm down.
Are you seriously suggesting that the proposed root and branch reformation of the NHS, or the axing of libraries and swimming pools we have had for generations "returning to 2007 levels"?
Your attitude is so blase to be almost criminal.
The tragedy is, you can't even see you've been conned.
No not BA, I'm thinking about when the bank I worked for did all of the things that I mentioned in my post above and the union didn't want to know. One of the very same unions who were there yesterday and very vocal.
It seems that all union members are supposedly equal but public sector members are more equal than the others
Really? I seem to remember the banking unions being very angry and proactive when bank job losses were announced.
Really? I seem to remember the banking unions being very angry and proactive when bank job losses were announced.
Are you a member?
Perhaps the unions' campaigns passed you by?
The high street banks maybe because that makes headlines. Smaller banks that no one outside of The City has heard of and the unions didn't want to know.
I was a member but the dismissive way they treated the redundancies in my company made me, and many others, cancel our membership. Even the union rep resigned his position over the sheer lack of any interest from the union.
As I said, it appears some union members are more equal than others
Total rubbish. They are not going to privatise the health service. Do you have any evidence they are "privatising everything in sight", or is that just more leftie scaremongering from people who have no idea what government intend to? And the left always loved bashing the Daily Mail for sensationalism and fearmongering. How ironic. Plus, they do have a mandate - it was a hung parliament and a coalition is a perfectly legitimate outcome. You see them all over Europe for god's sake.
They do not have a mandate to do this. It will be fought every step of the way. When will people like you stop making excuses for our exploiters?
The high street banks maybe because that makes headlines. Smaller banks that no one outside of The City has heard of and the unions didn't want to know.
I was a member but the dismissive way they treated the redundancies in my company made me, and many others, cancel our membership. Even the union rep resigned his position over the sheer lack of any interest from the union.
As I said, it appears some union members are more equal than others
So because you feel the union let you down then it can't do anything for others in the public/private sectors?
My thoughts are how did you come up with an opinion that the current government is starting to "Wage war on the public sector"?
I can tell you that this is exactly what it feels like - an assault on every aspect of being part of the public sector. Pay cuts, reductions in terms and conditions of employment, pension cost increases, pension benefit reductions, job losses, cuts in services. All accompanied by the most cynical media manipulation designed to get the rest of the british public seeing the public sector as wasteful, bloated, filled with non-jobs, gold plated pensions. Almost daily attacks in the media by the likes of Pickles, Goves and Lansley rubbishing our public services to make reform more acceptable.
So because you feel the union let you down then it can't do anything for others in the public/private sectors?
Seems a tad selfish..........
That isn't what I said and you know it so stop trying to twist it into something that it isn't.
When the very same union is one of the most vocal here because they are making headlines yet tell other members that there is nothing they can do to help when there are no headlines to be made then that does appear that the union has double standards as to which of its members they care about and which they don't. Yet they are quite happy to take money from the members they aren't prepared to even attempt to help.
Many of us were in that situation 2 or 3 years ago at the start of the recession. Jobs were cut, there were widescale pay freezes and our pensions were slashed. Where was the swell of union support then?
It does appear that now the public sector have been asked to take their turn, suddenly the unions jump into action
If private sector unions failed to protect their employees from the worst of the recession that is very sad. But don't expect public sector workers to lie down and take what is happening on the chin. Much of the private sector is now non unionised so the voice of the private sector worker was not heard as loudly as we are now hearing the voices of public sector workers. Is that such a bad thing? I simply wish the same were true in the private sector. I also abhor the divide and conquer mentality of this government that is pitting public sector worker against private sector worker. With the exception of the extremely wealthy (including the cabinet) this is one time when we really are in it together.
If private sector unions failed to protect their employees from the worst of the recession that is very sad. But don't expect public sector workers to lie down and take what is happening on the chin. Much of the private sector is now non unionised so the voice of the private sector worker was not heard as loudly as we are now hearing the voices of public sector workers. Is that such a bad thing? I simply wish the same were true in the private sector. I also abhor the divide and conquer mentality of this government that is pitting public sector worker against private sector worker. With the exception of the extremely wealthy (including the cabinet) this is one time when we really are in it together.
Ad as I've already said, wee talkin about one of the same unions that is very vocal in this case but didn't want to know in our case.
Every union member pays their fees and should expect the same support from the union regardless of the sector they are employed in and whether they are in a headline grabbing senario or not.
It's a bit galling seeing the leader of the union you paid into standing up and shouting yesterday when they wouldn't get involved when asked to.
Ad as I've already said, wee talkin about one of the same unions that is very vocal in this case but didn't want to know in our case.
Every union member pays their fees and should expect the same support from the union regardless of the sector they are employed in and whether they are in a headline grabbing senario or not.
It's a bit galling seeing the leader of the union you paid into standing up and shouting yesterday when they wouldn't get involved when asked to.
If you are unhappy with the level of representation you get from your union then withdraw from it or fight for better representation - but don't use your disappointment with your own union to make some kind of argument about the march. Perhaps the union feels in this case it was protesting for something in the wider public interest.
The cuts shouldn't be happening....If certain media organisations like the Daily Mail etc - support these anti protesters then this will continue happening. At some stage the Police will not except anyone marching on the streets anywhere. It's a cost which the Tax Payer can't expect to folk out for officers on the streets for nearly 24 Hours..
So all this talk about rationalisation of services and encouraging local authorities to use the private sector for everything is not privatisation? They are taking public money and giving it to the private sector, that's privatisation as far as I'm concerned. There is no real need for any of this. They are just doing it because they think that the private sector is better than the public. It's an assumption without any real evidence to back it up.
Soon we really will be UK PLC. Our votes will count for even less than they currently do.
Talk. So as you cannot offer any concrete examples, as you say yourself
It's an assumption without any real evidence to back it up.
The cuts shouldn't be happening....If certain media organisations like the Daily Mail etc - support these anti protesters then this will continue happening. At some stage the Police will not except anyone marching on the streets anywhere. It's a cost which the Tax Payer can't expect to folk out for officers on the streets for nearly 24 Hours..
OK, you're happy for us to carry on like Viv Nicholson and spend, spend, spend?
If private sector unions failed to protect their employees from the worst of the recession that is very sad. But don't expect public sector workers to lie down and take what is happening on the chin. Much of the private sector is now non unionised so the voice of the private sector worker was not heard as loudly as we are now hearing the voices of public sector workers. Is that such a bad thing? I simply wish the same were true in the private sector. I also abhor the divide and conquer mentality of this government that is pitting public sector worker against private sector worker. With the exception of the extremely wealthy (including the cabinet) this is one time when we really are in it together.
I'm afraid for all their grand standing, the public sector is going to have to put up with spending reductions.
I'm afraid for all their grand standing, the public sector is going to have to put up with spending reductions.
Which the vast majority of people would accept if they were phased in a less risky way. If we go back into recession and unemployment soars I think there will be a lot of people questioning the government's thinking on the pace of the cuts.
Which the vast majority of people would accept if they were phased in a less risky way. If we go back into recession and unemployment soars I think there will be a lot of people questioning the government's thinking on the pace of the cuts.
You are making quite a few assumptions there. How would borrowing into the next parliament (when this borrowing is reliant on gilts) less risky?
You are making quite a few assumptions there. How would borrowing into the next parliament (when this borrowing is reliant on gilts) less risky?
Well that's the value judgement isn't it - is it more risky to carry on borrowing for longer or is it more risky to cut public spending and the consequent effects of that on the economy. There are plenty of economists who have said that the current scale and pace of cuts risks a double dip recession. If that happens we will have to continue borrowing anyway, to meet the costs of welfare payments and to continue to provide services with lower tax revenues.
I see huge amounts of money being spent on redundancy payments which would have been completely unnecessary with a more sensibly paced programme of cuts. Huge numbers of individuals will end up on benefits next year placing a huge strain on welfare and social services, not to mention the human costs on the families affected. I don't think these risks have been fully balanced against those of continuing with a deficit for a longer period of time.
Talk. So as you cannot offer any concrete examples, as you say yourself
I can't offer concrete examples because one of the main clients of the company I presently work for is a rather major services company where the senior management are in a come storm over the contracts they will be getting soon. I'm not doing a Wikileaks on them as I'm sure they'd get away with their reputation intact (everyone hates them already), whereas I'd probably never work again.
Besides, my political opinions are irrelevant when it comes to the services I provide to clients, which is something I learned when I briefly worked in the public sector nearly two decades ago now. If I work for someone then they get the best I can do.
Comments
I'm terribly sorry, but if your idea of returning public spending to 2007 levels amounts to 'the like of which we haven't seen before and the beginning of the end for the NHS', you really do need to get your hype-ometer recalibrated. Calm down.
Correct me if I'm wrong Andy, but I'm guessing that you are not on of the 200,000 people currently in danger of losing their job!
Many of us were in that situation 2 or 3 years ago at the start of the recession. Jobs were cut, there were widescale pay freezes and our pensions were slashed. Where was the swell of union support then?
It does appear that now the public sector have been asked to take their turn, suddenly the unions jump into action
You're not thinking of British Airways are you?
This is the heart of the question about socio-political impact really, because the government may be seen as being directly responsible for that impact.
No not BA, I'm thinking about when the bank I worked for did all of the things that I mentioned in my post above and the union didn't want to know. One of the very same unions who were there yesterday and very vocal.
It seems that all union members are supposedly equal but public sector members are more equal than the others
Are you seriously suggesting that the proposed root and branch reformation of the NHS, or the axing of libraries and swimming pools we have had for generations "returning to 2007 levels"?
Your attitude is so blase to be almost criminal.
The tragedy is, you can't even see you've been conned.
Really? I seem to remember the banking unions being very angry and proactive when bank job losses were announced.
Are you a member?
Perhaps the unions' campaigns passed you by?
The high street banks maybe because that makes headlines. Smaller banks that no one outside of The City has heard of and the unions didn't want to know.
I was a member but the dismissive way they treated the redundancies in my company made me, and many others, cancel our membership. Even the union rep resigned his position over the sheer lack of any interest from the union.
As I said, it appears some union members are more equal than others
They do not have a mandate to do this. It will be fought every step of the way. When will people like you stop making excuses for our exploiters?
So because you feel the union let you down then it can't do anything for others in the public/private sectors?
Seems a tad selfish..........
I can tell you that this is exactly what it feels like - an assault on every aspect of being part of the public sector. Pay cuts, reductions in terms and conditions of employment, pension cost increases, pension benefit reductions, job losses, cuts in services. All accompanied by the most cynical media manipulation designed to get the rest of the british public seeing the public sector as wasteful, bloated, filled with non-jobs, gold plated pensions. Almost daily attacks in the media by the likes of Pickles, Goves and Lansley rubbishing our public services to make reform more acceptable.
Yes it feels very much like the waging of a war.
That isn't what I said and you know it so stop trying to twist it into something that it isn't.
When the very same union is one of the most vocal here because they are making headlines yet tell other members that there is nothing they can do to help when there are no headlines to be made then that does appear that the union has double standards as to which of its members they care about and which they don't. Yet they are quite happy to take money from the members they aren't prepared to even attempt to help.
If private sector unions failed to protect their employees from the worst of the recession that is very sad. But don't expect public sector workers to lie down and take what is happening on the chin. Much of the private sector is now non unionised so the voice of the private sector worker was not heard as loudly as we are now hearing the voices of public sector workers. Is that such a bad thing? I simply wish the same were true in the private sector. I also abhor the divide and conquer mentality of this government that is pitting public sector worker against private sector worker. With the exception of the extremely wealthy (including the cabinet) this is one time when we really are in it together.
Ad as I've already said, wee talkin about one of the same unions that is very vocal in this case but didn't want to know in our case.
Every union member pays their fees and should expect the same support from the union regardless of the sector they are employed in and whether they are in a headline grabbing senario or not.
It's a bit galling seeing the leader of the union you paid into standing up and shouting yesterday when they wouldn't get involved when asked to.
If you are unhappy with the level of representation you get from your union then withdraw from it or fight for better representation - but don't use your disappointment with your own union to make some kind of argument about the march. Perhaps the union feels in this case it was protesting for something in the wider public interest.
Which the vast majority of people would accept if they were phased in a less risky way. If we go back into recession and unemployment soars I think there will be a lot of people questioning the government's thinking on the pace of the cuts.
Well that's the value judgement isn't it - is it more risky to carry on borrowing for longer or is it more risky to cut public spending and the consequent effects of that on the economy. There are plenty of economists who have said that the current scale and pace of cuts risks a double dip recession. If that happens we will have to continue borrowing anyway, to meet the costs of welfare payments and to continue to provide services with lower tax revenues.
I see huge amounts of money being spent on redundancy payments which would have been completely unnecessary with a more sensibly paced programme of cuts. Huge numbers of individuals will end up on benefits next year placing a huge strain on welfare and social services, not to mention the human costs on the families affected. I don't think these risks have been fully balanced against those of continuing with a deficit for a longer period of time.
I can't offer concrete examples because one of the main clients of the company I presently work for is a rather major services company where the senior management are in a come storm over the contracts they will be getting soon. I'm not doing a Wikileaks on them as I'm sure they'd get away with their reputation intact (everyone hates them already), whereas I'd probably never work again.
Besides, my political opinions are irrelevant when it comes to the services I provide to clients, which is something I learned when I briefly worked in the public sector nearly two decades ago now. If I work for someone then they get the best I can do.