I actually find it a bit shocking and odd people are playing the race card without any evidence.
I'm puzzled as everyone why he is getting boo's and chants, but there's nothing pointing to racism. Only thing I can point it at is his VT, him being a bit boring in the house or old housemates making him out to be nasty etc. None of that deserves the reception he got, but it's BB, the crowd will boo anyone, next week it will probably be someone different. I did feel sorry for him yesterday though.
Why do you think, on a forum which debates 100's of topics every week, that racism is a word that must never be used, even as a suggestion? Or are there any other forbidden words you see as 'playing a card', rather than debating a topic?
I started that thread and I hadn't realised it had been closed.
That is beyond pathetic. Gagging people from speaking doesn't not stop an idea from existing. It doesn't stop a truth being a truth.
There are clearly people on these forums -- up to and including the moderators -- who believe that we live in some kind of a fantasy world in which racism doesn't exist.
Those people are stupid and those people are wrong and I'm done with these forums. I shan't be posting or reading again.
Don't go away. We need more people who understand the concept of reasonable debate, not fewer.
If I remember didn't she call her Shilpa Poppadom or something similar. It was the sort of thing that infant or junior schoolkids would say. I felt that it wasn't borne of racism, but her lack of maturity and IQ.
bib - one would have to argue that racism is, in fact, borne of lack of maturity and IQ, surely ... amongst other things?
I suspect that's the real reason rather than the racism slur. Anyone who shows arrogance & states they're going to win, never goes down well with either HM's or the public.
It's exactly the same reason as Tamara.. The VT. People don't like that, "I'm a player, I've already won" nonsense and they don't forget it. It's catch 22 I guess.. the qualities in the VT that attracted the producers and got them the gig are same qualities that most of us would find unpleasant.
By the time they make their VT they are already chosen, interview tapes are much more enlightening - ever see Kim's interview... that was interesting and a totally different woman!
With regard to Pav, I don't think racism is the reason he was boo'd so badly, I do think it was an element of it from some people though.
When people were saying how much they didn't like him, how boring he was, after being in there 24 hours, it does tend to beg the question why people didn't like him off the bat. I imagine for a large percentage that would have been due to his VT because, no matter how we know that nobody in that house as lived up to their VT, we still judge people on them. However, I also think there was a minor element of racism from some quarters. I guaged that on remarks I'd seen made about his turban and various muslim remarks.
For the most part though, I don't think there was enough racism involved to create that booing that we saw last night; I think that was mostly to do with the perception BB have given of Pav being boring, not doing anything - even though they have themselves posted clips of him trying to get the HMs involved in fun and games, playing games, housemates complaining that he's still got too much energy and enthusiasm and is out of sync with the rest of the housemates who have found their routine and are now pretty lethargic
There is also the bitter ex-housemate element, especially with somebody like Jale who was running a little 'keep Steven in' campaign of her own. Along with Matthew, Danielle and Biannca adding their tuppence worth and building up Pav to be some master strategist who must be avoided at all costs because he is a 'game player', it all culminated in some form of group hysteria that caught on with the public to some degree too. The public want a hate figure (so do the housemates), Pav seemed to have been an easy one to pick after the task this last week.
ETA: I hate the word hate but it's a word that fits in with the whole BB thing, it's always love or hate, fan or foe, very little like and dislike. Being a dislike figure doesn't sound quite right
Why do you think, on a forum which debates 100's of topics every week, that racism is a word that must never be used, even as a suggestion? Or are there any other forbidden words you see as 'playing a card', rather than debating a topic?
I never said it shouldn't be discussed, if there was actually clear evidence of racism then discuss away.
Its not just you I know, but this issue has been brought up when Toya, Pauline and Marlon got evicted. Why haven't Steven, Tamara, Danielle or Matthew had the same scrutiny? Why do you and the others seem the need to bring the race card into it? Its so low
Why do you think it cannot possibly be any thing to do with race?
None of us know the reason, we are all speculating. If there is the slightest possibility that it could be because of race then isn't racism is a legitimate consideration in the debate?
The same debate is valid with Steven, Tamara, Danielle or Matthew but because there has been a general consensus as to why these house mates were disliked there was no need to look further. If you'd like to bring that up for discussion please do (a separate thread maybe?) I'm sure you'll be aware some will try to shut down the discussion immediately, but others will offer other reasons as to why they were unliked and possibly suggest why those reasons are more likely.
I never said it shouldn't be discussed, if there was actually clear evidence of racism then discuss away.
Numerous people have posted that they think the treatment of him is disproportionate to anything he has done to deserve it. That IS evidence; you don't have to agree with it, but it surely can't be suggested that it is wrong to say it. And the 'his VT was not likeable' argument is very weak. Hardly any housemate has a VT that is modest and self-deprecating; in fact I would say none. They all know by now how these things work: you have to sound arrogant and self-regarding to be considered for BB. I have suggested other housemates - Harry, for example - who had hideous VT's, and no one thought a thing of them when they were in the house.
I started that thread and I hadn't realised it had been closed.
That is beyond pathetic. Gagging people from speaking doesn't not stop an idea from existing. It doesn't stop a truth being a truth.
There are clearly people on these forums -- up to and including the moderators -- who believe that we live in some kind of a fantasy world in which racism doesn't exist.
Those people are stupid and those people are wrong and I'm done with these forums. I shan't be posting or reading again.
Oh my goodness! How petulant.
Where exactly has anyone said racism doesn't exist? Some people are just questioning whether it's relevant to Pav's unpopularity, and some are doubting it.
Why do you think it cannot possibly be any thing to do with race?
None of us know the reason, we are all speculating. If there is the slightest possibility that it could be because of race then isn't racism is a legitimate consideration in the debate?
The same debate is valid with Steven, Tamara, Danielle or Matthew but because there has been a general consensus as to why these house mates were disliked there was no need to look further. If you'd like to bring that up for discussion please do (a separate thread maybe?) I'm sure you'll be aware some will try to shut down the discussion immediately, but others will offer other reasons as to why they were unliked and possibly suggest why those reasons are more likely.
There's a general consensus about why Pav is disliked.
People have repeated the reasons over and over again.
But they are being ignored because of the desire to play the race card.
TBH, the whole searching for a reason to "look further" in the case of Pav is more racist than any crowd booing.
Yes he's been getting a hard time. But it's nothing to do with race, culture or religion imo.
(Does he have a religion btw - he wears a headscarf as if he is Sikh but only during the day and trims his beard and reckons he's a womaniser?)
It's just the hard ride of coming in late, talking up his gameplaying, and not being all showbiz fake lovey dovey like Zoe for me.
He's also been pretty miserable on the highlights - not his fault if he's felt like an outsider since he went in, but then what do late entrants expect?
I don't think this is a racism issue either, but I cant understand why the it isnt a legitimate debate in some peoples eyes? Why is it ridiculous? What have you seen that proves it cannot be racism?
Numerous people have posted that they think the treatment of him is disproportionate to anything he has done to deserve it. That IS evidence; you don't have to agree with it, but it surely can't be suggested that it is wrong to say it. And the 'his VT was not likeable' argument is very weak. Hardly any housemate has a VT that is modest and self-deprecating; in fact I would say none. They all know by now how these things work: you have to sound arrogant and self-regarding to be considered for BB. I have suggested other housemates - Harry, for example - who had hideous VT's, and no one thought a thing of them when they were in the house.
And I agree with that, but there's nothing to suggest it's because of his race to me and the thought didn't even cross my mind, so unless you think there's about 100 racist people in the audience in which case why did they cheer Zoe?
Of course it's just my opinion, not trying to sound like I'm right your wrong, I just find it hard to believe that's the case for this.
I don't think this is a racism issue either, but I cant understand why the it isnt a legitimate debate in some peoples eyes? Why is it ridiculous? What have you seen that proves it cannot be racism?
I agree. I don't think is is racism but I don't think it can be ruled out completely and think it's a subject that can be discussed without being ruled in or out.
It's just a shame that these discussion seem to bring out the worst in some on both sides of the argument
The treatment of Christopher is also disproportionate to anything we have seen from him.
What ism is that?
Homophobia definitely.
Not an "ism" though, but will it do?:D
The silly thing about paying too much attention to anything the crowd does is that it ignores the mob mentality.
Pav's sister was booed not because of anything she said or anything about her, the crowd just didn't want to be stopped at that point.
Also, as the crowd's reaction is paid so much attention, they have a self important attitude to what it is they are doing.
Unless the crowd at evictions is reined back, we are never going to get a reaction to any HM that is proportionate.
What is it people except?
Pav didn't deserve boos, but we are a very long way from a slight smattering of half hearted applause that recognises his achievement of being in BB but reflects his lack of contribution to our entertainment.
I never said it shouldn't be discussed, if there was actually clear evidence of racism then discuss away.
There rarely is clear evidence of any feeling. All that means is people avoid the buzzwords like p***, n*****, c*** etc. No evidence so it doesn't exist right? This is a discussion forum not a criminal trial. We can discuss reasonable possibilities as long as it's in a reasonable manner. If Big Brother is a reality show then it can be influenced by things in life that really happen. Like it or loathe it that includes racism.
No they are not white but look how Biannca was treated by the public for being a bit forward etc. The girl from Towie was loved and celebrated for being similar in behaviour if not worse.
Zoe now is being picked on for the Tesco comment and people were trying to boo her last night.
Pav IMO has done nothing wrong and has been booed from week 1 probably for saying he wants to win the money and nothing else. Like I've said in my previous post it's hypocrisy and double standards in here and out there nothing more. As long as your face fits you can do as you please! >:(
Example: Ash, Ashleigh, little Chris, Winston, Helen ( some people saying they like her now ) etc.
And I agree with that, but there's nothing to suggest it's because of his race to me and the thought didn't even cross my mind, so unless you think there's about 100 racist people in the audience in which case why did they cheer Zoe?
Of course it's just my opinion, not trying to sound like I'm right your wrong, I just find it hard to believe that's the case for this.
For me its not whether the Pav 'hate' is racism, none of us can prove or disprove that, its the continuous attempts to shut down discussion on this topic (not just in this thread).
Wouldn't be better to suggest why its unlikely to be racism rather than post the tedious 'race card' cliché.
That would explain why he is disliked, but not why he is hated. Especially by the public. Jale found it difficult to integrate herself in the first few weeks, yet she was loved by the public and they really empathised with her.
He is not finding it difficult to intergrate though! Where did you get that from?? Just because someone finds it hard to intergrate that is no reason to dislike them. He has clearly said he feels he is being ignored and brushed aside by hms even though he has tried approaching them to try and talk.
Steven for instance on about Pav staring at him. Sometimes when you are feeling worried about someones hostility towards you for no real reason, you do tend to look at them probably hoping for some sign that they aren't being funny towards you and that it is probably you imagining things.
Steven took it to be some kind of confrontational action by Pav because he is being hostile towards him along with some of the other hms.
Pav is being bullied and I'm sick if it. He's got the whole house on his back and he's done nothing to deserve it. He's a great guy with great star presence and out if control charisma.
This guy should be loved and revered by the house and the chavs in the crowd and the people at home.
This is a guy that goes to see the sick in hospital and the homeless. This is a guy that once climb a tree and saved a cat from it's near certain death.
This is the guy that once helped a women who's shopping bags split when walking home from Freshcos and not only carried all her shopping but helped her put it away.
This is a guy that once chased a thieving puke down the street and stopped him stealing sandwich and two bottles if water, took him down and sat on him till the police arrived.
This guy is a hero and this guy DOES NOT deserve to be booed.
I'd love for someone to tell me why Pav is hated so much, to the point where he is getting mercilessly booed and chanted by the public and even had Steven making threatening comments about him (which he really should have been given a formal warning for.) I don't believe the theory of ''Oh, the public just boo anyone, there's nothing behind it.''
Steven got booed because of his arrogance and controlling behaviour, Helen got chanted because she's a vile bully, Ashleigh got booed because she was seen as cold hearted and manipulative, Marlon got booed because of his sexism and pressing the button, Ash got booed because of his sexist comments and alliance with Helen, Pauline got booed because she was a bully, Toya got booed because she was confrontational and hostile. Etc, etc.
There are logical explanations as to why everyone else got booed so strongly. But what exactly has Pav done to deserve it? Yes, he has come across as 'boring' which would explain people not liking him or maybe booing a little bit. But that doesn't explain the level of hatred which he is getting. And it's certainly not purely down to him being a 'new' housemate- Zoe and Bianca were well liked in the house, and Zoe is fast becoming a favourite to win. Nor is it to do with him being 'quiet' - Kim was quiet all the way through and was initially well liked until she got with Steven and was booed because of it.
So, in my opinion, there's only one logical explanation as to why he is the target of such pure hatred and hostility. And that's purely down to racism and the unwillingness of certain people to embrace other cultures/races/religions. I really believe if Pav had exactly the same personality but was a white male who dressed in traditional western clothing, people would have been largely indifferent to him (or at worst would have booed him slightly and labelled him as 'boring.') But he certainly wouldn't have been hated, because he has done nothing to deserve it.
An uncomfortable topic, but an important one.
As a new housemate, the viewers will be wanting you to mix in with the current housemates a they're the ones that we've been watching for weeks, so new housemates will have to blend in with the originals to fit in with the viewers and the housemates
Pav has distanced himself from the house and this wouldn't be so bad earlier on but we're halfway through the game now, so as a new HM you have to be able to get involved
I think it's a very wide assumption to assume its because of his race
There is absolutely no evidence to support it
I remember that. And it was full of people saying how were they expected to know he wasn't a muslim. It was an eye opener to say the least.
The fact that they assumed he was muslim is enough said IMO! Secondly why is it any of their business. Thirdly before showing themselves up as ignorant and judgmental they should at least have looked up details about him, or was that too much like hard work?
He is not finding it difficult to intergrate though! Where did you get that from?? Just because someone finds it hard to intergrate that is no reason to dislike them. He has clearly said he feels he is being ignored and brushed aside by hms even though he has tried approaching them to try and talk.
Steven for instance on about Pav staring at him. Sometimes when you are feeling worried about someones hostility towards you for no real reason, you do tend to look at them probably hoping for some sign that they aren't being funny towards you and that it is probably you imagining things.
Steven took it to be some kind of confrontational action by Pav because he is being hostile towards him along with some of the other hms.
I think you've got the wrong end of the stick with regards to my post. I responded to a poster who said it wasn't a race issue and that the crowd reaction was purely because of Pav not integrating into the group. So I pointed out that not integrating (or being seen as not integrating) might explain why some people dislike him, but it doesn't explain the level of hostility towards Pav from the other housemates and the public.
Since we seem to be on the same side, I don't understand why you quoted my post? Unless you meant to quote the poster who initially made the comment about Pav not integrating?
Comments
Don't go away.
I think that had something to do with it.
By the time they make their VT they are already chosen, interview tapes are much more enlightening - ever see Kim's interview... that was interesting and a totally different woman!
With regard to Pav, I don't think racism is the reason he was boo'd so badly, I do think it was an element of it from some people though.
When people were saying how much they didn't like him, how boring he was, after being in there 24 hours, it does tend to beg the question why people didn't like him off the bat. I imagine for a large percentage that would have been due to his VT because, no matter how we know that nobody in that house as lived up to their VT, we still judge people on them. However, I also think there was a minor element of racism from some quarters. I guaged that on remarks I'd seen made about his turban and various muslim remarks.
For the most part though, I don't think there was enough racism involved to create that booing that we saw last night; I think that was mostly to do with the perception BB have given of Pav being boring, not doing anything - even though they have themselves posted clips of him trying to get the HMs involved in fun and games, playing games, housemates complaining that he's still got too much energy and enthusiasm and is out of sync with the rest of the housemates who have found their routine and are now pretty lethargic
There is also the bitter ex-housemate element, especially with somebody like Jale who was running a little 'keep Steven in' campaign of her own. Along with Matthew, Danielle and Biannca adding their tuppence worth and building up Pav to be some master strategist who must be avoided at all costs because he is a 'game player', it all culminated in some form of group hysteria that caught on with the public to some degree too. The public want a hate figure (so do the housemates), Pav seemed to have been an easy one to pick after the task this last week.
ETA: I hate the word hate
Why do you think it cannot possibly be any thing to do with race?
None of us know the reason, we are all speculating. If there is the slightest possibility that it could be because of race then isn't racism is a legitimate consideration in the debate?
The same debate is valid with Steven, Tamara, Danielle or Matthew but because there has been a general consensus as to why these house mates were disliked there was no need to look further. If you'd like to bring that up for discussion please do (a separate thread maybe?) I'm sure you'll be aware some will try to shut down the discussion immediately, but others will offer other reasons as to why they were unliked and possibly suggest why those reasons are more likely.
Numerous people have posted that they think the treatment of him is disproportionate to anything he has done to deserve it. That IS evidence; you don't have to agree with it, but it surely can't be suggested that it is wrong to say it. And the 'his VT was not likeable' argument is very weak. Hardly any housemate has a VT that is modest and self-deprecating; in fact I would say none. They all know by now how these things work: you have to sound arrogant and self-regarding to be considered for BB. I have suggested other housemates - Harry, for example - who had hideous VT's, and no one thought a thing of them when they were in the house.
Oh my goodness! How petulant.
Where exactly has anyone said racism doesn't exist? Some people are just questioning whether it's relevant to Pav's unpopularity, and some are doubting it.
There's a general consensus about why Pav is disliked.
People have repeated the reasons over and over again.
But they are being ignored because of the desire to play the race card.
TBH, the whole searching for a reason to "look further" in the case of Pav is more racist than any crowd booing.
I don't think this is a racism issue either, but I cant understand why the it isnt a legitimate debate in some peoples eyes? Why is it ridiculous? What have you seen that proves it cannot be racism?
Of course it's just my opinion, not trying to sound like I'm right your wrong, I just find it hard to believe that's the case for this.
What ism is that?
Pav has the second best hair in the house.
I agree. I don't think is is racism but I don't think it can be ruled out completely and think it's a subject that can be discussed without being ruled in or out.
It's just a shame that these discussion seem to bring out the worst in some on both sides of the argument
How many opinions are posted every day on this forum, and how many of those provide evidence.
This a discussion group not a court of law.
10000000000000% right
its disgusting!
Homophobia definitely.
Not an "ism" though, but will it do?:D
The silly thing about paying too much attention to anything the crowd does is that it ignores the mob mentality.
Pav's sister was booed not because of anything she said or anything about her, the crowd just didn't want to be stopped at that point.
Also, as the crowd's reaction is paid so much attention, they have a self important attitude to what it is they are doing.
Unless the crowd at evictions is reined back, we are never going to get a reaction to any HM that is proportionate.
What is it people except?
Pav didn't deserve boos, but we are a very long way from a slight smattering of half hearted applause that recognises his achievement of being in BB but reflects his lack of contribution to our entertainment.
There rarely is clear evidence of any feeling. All that means is people avoid the buzzwords like p***, n*****, c*** etc. No evidence so it doesn't exist right? This is a discussion forum not a criminal trial. We can discuss reasonable possibilities as long as it's in a reasonable manner. If Big Brother is a reality show then it can be influenced by things in life that really happen. Like it or loathe it that includes racism.
No they are not white but look how Biannca was treated by the public for being a bit forward etc. The girl from Towie was loved and celebrated for being similar in behaviour if not worse.
Zoe now is being picked on for the Tesco comment and people were trying to boo her last night.
Pav IMO has done nothing wrong and has been booed from week 1 probably for saying he wants to win the money and nothing else. Like I've said in my previous post it's hypocrisy and double standards in here and out there nothing more. As long as your face fits you can do as you please! >:(
Example: Ash, Ashleigh, little Chris, Winston, Helen ( some people saying they like her now ) etc.
For me its not whether the Pav 'hate' is racism, none of us can prove or disprove that, its the continuous attempts to shut down discussion on this topic (not just in this thread).
Wouldn't be better to suggest why its unlikely to be racism rather than post the tedious 'race card' cliché.
He is not finding it difficult to intergrate though! Where did you get that from?? Just because someone finds it hard to intergrate that is no reason to dislike them. He has clearly said he feels he is being ignored and brushed aside by hms even though he has tried approaching them to try and talk.
Steven for instance on about Pav staring at him. Sometimes when you are feeling worried about someones hostility towards you for no real reason, you do tend to look at them probably hoping for some sign that they aren't being funny towards you and that it is probably you imagining things.
Steven took it to be some kind of confrontational action by Pav because he is being hostile towards him along with some of the other hms.
But we haven't come up with a conclusion, how can that be racist?
This guy should be loved and revered by the house and the chavs in the crowd and the people at home.
This is a guy that goes to see the sick in hospital and the homeless. This is a guy that once climb a tree and saved a cat from it's near certain death.
This is the guy that once helped a women who's shopping bags split when walking home from Freshcos and not only carried all her shopping but helped her put it away.
This is a guy that once chased a thieving puke down the street and stopped him stealing sandwich and two bottles if water, took him down and sat on him till the police arrived.
This guy is a hero and this guy DOES NOT deserve to be booed.
I love him and so should you lot too.
Long live Pav.
Pav has distanced himself from the house and this wouldn't be so bad earlier on but we're halfway through the game now, so as a new HM you have to be able to get involved
I think it's a very wide assumption to assume its because of his race
There is absolutely no evidence to support it
The fact that they assumed he was muslim is enough said IMO! Secondly why is it any of their business. Thirdly before showing themselves up as ignorant and judgmental they should at least have looked up details about him, or was that too much like hard work?
I think you've got the wrong end of the stick with regards to my post. I responded to a poster who said it wasn't a race issue and that the crowd reaction was purely because of Pav not integrating into the group. So I pointed out that not integrating (or being seen as not integrating) might explain why some people dislike him, but it doesn't explain the level of hostility towards Pav from the other housemates and the public.
Since we seem to be on the same side, I don't understand why you quoted my post? Unless you meant to quote the poster who initially made the comment about Pav not integrating?
So why hasn't Zoe received the same amount of booing then? Although some did try to boo her.