I need help re. Shih Tzu pup
big_hard_lad
Posts: 4,077 Forum Member
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Hi guys,
First time on the Pets forum so go easy!!
My wife and I decided we wanted to get a pup. We decided on a Shih Tzu for several reasons. Anyway, we found an ad on Gumtree...
http://www.gumtree.com/p/pets/beautifull-solid-black-shih-tzu-pups-for-sale/82549905
Went and saw them, fell in love and paid £100 deposit on the "one remaining". This was Wednesday night, the puppies are only 3 weeks old so we have to wait another 4 weeks until we can bring him home. Anyway, just had a call from the breeder to say the puppy passed away during the night, but did we want the other one? Now, you'll remember he said previously that the one who died was the "only one remaining"! He also mentioned when we went to see the dog on Wednesday that the litter had 3 puppies, one died and two remained. So now, that means that 2 of the 3 have died. I'm really suspicious of the other dog now and I'm unsure of what to do? Does anyone have any advice?
I've seen this ad now on Gumtree and I'm going to go and see the black one tomorrow. Seems a bit more reliable (what with the KC reg)...
http://www.gumtree.com/p/pets/shih-tzu-puppies-for-sale-gorgeous-cute-pedigree-puppies/82700622
Any advice will be greatly appreciated, I've never dealt with breeders before, only ever had dogs from the pound.
Thanks
First time on the Pets forum so go easy!!
My wife and I decided we wanted to get a pup. We decided on a Shih Tzu for several reasons. Anyway, we found an ad on Gumtree...
http://www.gumtree.com/p/pets/beautifull-solid-black-shih-tzu-pups-for-sale/82549905
Went and saw them, fell in love and paid £100 deposit on the "one remaining". This was Wednesday night, the puppies are only 3 weeks old so we have to wait another 4 weeks until we can bring him home. Anyway, just had a call from the breeder to say the puppy passed away during the night, but did we want the other one? Now, you'll remember he said previously that the one who died was the "only one remaining"! He also mentioned when we went to see the dog on Wednesday that the litter had 3 puppies, one died and two remained. So now, that means that 2 of the 3 have died. I'm really suspicious of the other dog now and I'm unsure of what to do? Does anyone have any advice?
I've seen this ad now on Gumtree and I'm going to go and see the black one tomorrow. Seems a bit more reliable (what with the KC reg)...
http://www.gumtree.com/p/pets/shih-tzu-puppies-for-sale-gorgeous-cute-pedigree-puppies/82700622
Any advice will be greatly appreciated, I've never dealt with breeders before, only ever had dogs from the pound.
Thanks
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Comments
KC reg means very little - anyone with a litter of pups can pay the extra for KC reg - the litter isn't checked, or health tested.
Sites like Gumtree can be a front for puppy mills. Take a look online to see the conditions puppy mills are infamous for, then consider if you want to fund this.
You can find breeders from online - sites for people who breed or love a certain breed, breed rescues etc, or in the classifieds of the dog press. These are more likely to be reputable breeders. No good breeder on the face of this earth would EVER sell dogs on a site like that - for one thing - they'd have no need. Pups dying and the # of pups mysteriously changing = puppy mill. You're funding immense suffering and cruelty if you give them a penny.
Ring round breeders (some also listed in the back of mags like 'Dogs Today') and ask if anyone has heard of this person. If they haven't - it's dodgy.
All sounds very dodgy and could cost you a fortune should you actually take on a pup and it was sickly.
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/hopeuk/puppy_farm_capital.htm
Look back at these 'breeders' histories online - I bet they have more than one breed of dog for sale, over a period of time - is a sure sign. Sadly the breed you mention are 'fashionable' therefore highly likely to come from a source like this. Pups are kept in cruel conditions but they will make it look like they're being sold from someone's home (maybe transporting them there last minute). healthy pups don't just 'die' as a rule.
Run a mile!
The second ad says the puppies "can be KC reg if required". I am not sure what that means, surely they are either registered or they aren't.
I have bought pedigree cats, but not dogs, and I always go via the breed society website for an accredited breeder. You can do the same with puppies, go to the breed society website, or the Kennel Club website, and find a breeder via that route. You are more likely to find a healthy, well socialised puppy that way.
Link to the Kennel Club accredited breeder scheme
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/203
Thank you for your advice. I've never heard of a puppy mill before and having Googled it I shan't be purchasing from this man, just in case. Just out of interest, what do you think of the second ad? Not sure if I'll purchase following your advice, but I may go and have a look tomorrow and see what I think when I can see the conditions etc.
The scam is, the dogs are moved to what looks like a residential address, just before they sell them - so they can claim it was bred 'at home' in a family setting with kids, other pets, etc. This is due to the adverse publicity puppy farms have had over the past 30 years. (Dogs are not socialised, neglected, the mothers are just expendable breeding drones etc, so the pups tend to come with a whole host of behavioural problems. Stick them in a 'family home' setting - and people think they're buying from a backstreet breeder, not a mill).
So even going to see in person is no guarantee of the dogs' origin. I'd find a reputable breeder, and even then ask questions, go armed with info.
So it's not just that you're financing them to carry on - and ask any rescue, they will have brood b1tches that have been rescured from these places - but you're wasting your money, buying a dog that may well have problems in the not so distant future.
Who do I report him to?
Thanks for all the advice guys, I've looked on the KC website and I'm going to call around the registered breeders in my area.
It annoys me that puppy farmers are allowed to continue.
A friend of mine bought a little yorkie from a rather odd place and two days later the poor little mite was in an oxygen tent.
RSPCA,The Police. Depends on the nature of the cruelty. If they treat puppies like that, how do they treat their children?
Also write to your local MP. If baby farmers have been banned years ago,why haven't puppy farms?
I'd ring your local SPCA/animal welfare charity, and ask them what to do, as I've never been in your situation. But I do help with a breed rescue who regularly do runs to pick up dogs advertised on Gumtree, as the assumption is - they're cruelty cases.
The fact you've posted here may help save a lot of dogs - as other people read about this issue, so thanks.
Go talk to some reputable breeders go see the dogs they own you need to see the mum to assess character etc, when we bred we met the family wanting the puppy several times before purchace and never took a deposit before 4 weeks by then puppys have been on solid food a week or so, so much can go wrong before weaning.
Always ask about health checks for the breed you are wanting, reputable breeders will have all stock tested
I'll call the RSPCA. I honestly didn't know this problem existed, maybe I'm naive.
So are you saying that all dogs advertised on Gumtree are automatically assumed to be a cruelty case/puppy mill/puppy farm? That's crazy. I honestly had no clue this kind of stuff goes on, I've known numerous friends who have bought dogs off Gumtree and all have turned out well, well behaved and exactly as they had hoped. I just thought I was being unlucky that I'd picked a chancer.
I'm genuinely pissed off at this now, it's despicable behaviour and I'm going to challenge the guy on Sunday as to why he's changed his tune from 1 being available to suddenly 2. If I'm honest, and I don't mean to sound harsh or cause offence, but the guy is what I would describe as a little bit slow, simple or dense! I'm hoping that when I ask him about the change in numbers he'll be caught off guard slightly and will hesitate. I guess that'll be my sign that something is afoot.
One final thing that's popped into my head, on the phone when he offered me the other puppy he said, "or you can have your £100 back if you want". Makes him sound more genuine, but I'm pretty sure now that he isn't.
I actually did meet the mother and father of the dogs. Well, supposedly the mother and father, I'm not so sure now. They both seemed happy and healthy dogs to me, very affectionate to the owner. Thanks for the advice.
Not automatically assumed, but yes, it's a welfare issue if dogs are being advertised like discarded toys or something - but that's bull breeds, that chavs use for fighting or as bait dogs, etc - so when they turn up on Gumtree, it's worrying. The thing is, that reputable breeders really would never use a site like that, and any dog that is so unwanted it's discarded via that kind of website, is probably in 'need' in some way.
Get your money back, safely in your hand THEN ask questions.;)
Reputable breeders are very unlikely to advertise on gumtree. They sometimes advertise in specialist dog/cat magazines, but often they don't even need to do that as they are contacted via the breed society puppy/kitten list. It is only the puppy farmers who churn out huge numbers of animals and don't have a reputation to rely on who need to advertise widely.
Good point actually, I did give him my address
I'm not actually going to confront him as such, I'm just going to act stupid and ask, "how come this one is available now?" Then from his reaction I'm going to see what I think! I will be getting my £100 back mind you.
A well bred puppy will cost you less in the long run than a cheap sickly one from a puppy farm
Looking at some Shih Tzu websites it seems 7-10 weeks is the norm. He was willing to let me have him at 7 weeks so obviously trying to turn them over as quickly as possible...scum.
Under Kennel Club guidelines a pup shouldn't leave before 8 weeks. I think 12 weeks is a bit late personally. A reputable breeder would never sell their pups on Gumtree. You may have to wait a little while for a well bred puppy as often the most reputable breeders have long waiting lists but this little dog could give you as much as 15 years of love and joy. Isn't it worth spending a little bit of time and money on?
Good luck and take your time. A well bred, healthy dog with asound temperament is a joy to own.