John Hurt Who?

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  • AlexiRAlexiR Posts: 22,403
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    I don't see how he could be a future version of The Doctor.

    How would Smith's Doctor be aware of John Hurt (for lack of a better description) if he hadn't already happened? Clearly he wasn't part of The Doctor's time stream since Clara didn't recognise him so Smith passing through the Doctor's time stream wouldn't explain that. With that in mind then he must be a previous version of The Doctor that has somehow been exercised from his time stream. I actually think that how Hurt has seemingly been removed from The Doctor's time stream is perhaps more interesting than who he is. The other flaw with a future Doctor is that its John Hurt and they're not going to be able to get him back for a full series so they've just written themselves into a huge hole.

    In terms of who he is since the only regeneration we haven't seen is 8 to 9/McGann to Eccelston he'd have to fall there. 'Zero Doctor' seems unlikely because he's broken the promise made when the name Doctor was adopted. My assumption would be that this the version of The Doctor that fought in the Time War and his crimes were Time War related. Although that wouldn't necessarily be a secret.
  • ea91ea91 Posts: 2,363
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    AlexiR wrote: »
    How would Smith's Doctor be aware of John Hurt (for lack of a better description) if he hadn't already happened?

    I explained this in the first post. He would have encountered him as Ten in the 50th special.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 41
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    Rassillon or Morbius or Omega
  • AlexiRAlexiR Posts: 22,403
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    ea91 wrote: »
    I explained this in the first post. He would have encountered him as Ten in the 50th special.
    Then why wouldn't Clara know who he was? She was just thrown through the Doctor's time stream and she skipped the bit where he met up with a future 'evil' version of himself? In fact this is problematic regardless if they all meet up in the anniversary.
  • James FrederickJames Frederick Posts: 53,184
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    ea91 wrote: »
    I explained this in the first post. He would have encountered him as Ten in the 50th special.

    But 11 still spoke of him in past tense the way the Doctor talks if it was a future Doctor he would have said "He will be me" not "He was me"
  • MinkytheDogMinkytheDog Posts: 5,658
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    Pull2Open wrote: »
    No it makes no sense, that Doctor is in a parallel Earth with no Tardis...how would he have gotten to Trenzalore! It is also a secret of the Doctor's something he remembers doing and was so bad it reduced him to tears!

    I stand to be corrected but...

    JH's Doctor wasn't at Trenzalore - he was at some place that was not identified or named and for that to be Trenzalore would be pretty much impossible since that's where Clara started from - she landed at that location and repeatedly said that she didn't know where it was - the MS Doctor didn'y identify it either and it seems unlikely that he'd go back to Trenzalore after "getting his life back".

    I don't subscribe to the idea of that being the parallel earth but if it is, having it become a wasteland could work with the stories to date - we've seen a load of people going to and from that world after the Doctor had said that such interdimensional travel could cause a disaster.

    My own feeling, however, is that this is going to be rather more about the 50 year history of the Doctor that merely harking back to DT's Doctor.

    I think that JH's "Doctor" is more metaphorical than physical - like a manifestation of a "guilty conscience" and that meeting was "in the Doctor's head".

    It wouldn't take much to write a plot where the Doctor's "mind" is an enemy - and we supposedly already saw that happen with the Dream Lord - plus we had - just last week - a number of scenes that took place within the Doctor's mind and had him arguing with another "part" of himself.

    Aside from anything else, Clara undid the changes to the Doctor's "life" but the GI is still in there - she didn't and couldn't actually destroy or remove it - and we already know that the GI can take on a physical appearence without physically existing.

    Lots of ways to have JH's Doctor without him ever existing in the flesh. Even his apparent age and the depressing landscape can be explained with a "Dorian Gray" style plot device.
  • ea91ea91 Posts: 2,363
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    AlexiR wrote: »
    Then why wouldn't Clara know who he was? She was just thrown through the Doctor's time stream and she skipped the bit where he met up with a future 'evil' version of himself?

    That's far less problematic than her skipping the entire ninth incarnation's life, don't you think?
  • Shandyman81Shandyman81 Posts: 349
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    But 11 still spoke of him in past tense the way the Doctor talks if it was a future Doctor he would have said "He will be me" not "He was me"

    Exactly this. Like I said earlier. This shows it's a past incarnation, not a future one.
  • Shandyman81Shandyman81 Posts: 349
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    I stand to be corrected but...

    JH's Doctor wasn't at Trenzalore - he was at some place that was not identified or named and for that to be Trenzalore would be pretty much impossible since that's where Clara started from - she landed at that location and repeatedly said that she didn't know where it was - the MS Doctor didn'y identify it either and it seems unlikely that he'd go back to Trenzalore after "getting his life back".

    Actually 11 states they are in his time stream, so we know where they are.
  • talentedmonkeytalentedmonkey Posts: 2,639
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    ea91 wrote: »
    That's far less problematic than her skipping the entire ninth incarnation's life, don't you think?
    Copyright issues maybe!

    What if Hurt is the last Doctor who broke some promise to River, he is the Doctor who River married.
  • James FrederickJames Frederick Posts: 53,184
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    ea91 wrote: »
    That's far less problematic than her skipping the entire ninth incarnation's life, don't you think?

    Not really what if that version was "locked" away and wasn't unlocked until The 11th Doctor entered his own time stream so Clara couldn't see him.

    Maybe that was the GI plan all along maybe he found out about that version someone and knew there was only one way to release him
  • AlexiRAlexiR Posts: 22,403
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    I think that JH's "Doctor" is more metaphorical than physical - like a manifestation of a "guilty conscience" and that meeting was "in the Doctor's head".
    I really like that. Its a cool idea but the practicality of it actually working seems problematic.
    ea91 wrote: »
    That's far less problematic than her skipping the entire ninth incarnation's life, don't you think?
    (assuming John Hurt is the ninth Doctor)

    No. You can come up with a device that would exercise the Ninth Doctor's life from the time stream.

    If you're talking about McGann's Doctor. While we might not see it Clara does say she saw all eleven versions of him.

    Another reason why I don't think this can be a future version of The Doctor.

    After passing through the time stream and meeting back up with The Doctor Clara talks about seeing all of his eleven faces. Presumably this is because in the time stream she's passing through The Doctor's life ends with the eleventh Doctor or Matt Smith's Doctor. It ends with him dying at Trenzalore so there are no future versions of The Doctor for her to see or save. In fact The Doctor's time stream doesn't continue again until Smith's Doctor leaves it so there can't be Doctor 12 there for them to see. He can't exist until after Smith has left the time stream.
  • RickyBarbyRickyBarby Posts: 5,902
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    AlexiR wrote: »
    I really like that. Its a cool idea but the practicality of it actually working seems problematic.


    (assuming John Hurt is the ninth Doctor)

    No. You can come up with a device that would exercise the Ninth Doctor's life from the time stream.

    Another reason why I don't think this can be a future version of The Doctor.

    After passing through the time stream and meeting back up with The Doctor Clara talks about seeing all of his eleven faces. Presumably this is because in the time stream she's passing through The Doctor's life ends with the eleventh Doctor or Matt Smith's Doctor. It ends with him dying at Trenzalore so there are no future versions of The Doctor for her to see or save. In fact The Doctor's time stream doesn't continue again until Smith's Doctor leaves it so there can't be Doctor 12 there for them to see. He can't exist until after Smith has left the time stream.

    i said it before dax on dsn had a host locked out of it memories.so why could the doctor not have a incarnation locked out of his memories.
  • Pull2OpenPull2Open Posts: 15,138
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    I stand to be corrected but...

    JH's Doctor wasn't at Trenzalore - he was at some place that was not identified or named and for that to be Trenzalore would be pretty much impossible since that's where Clara started from - she landed at that location and repeatedly said that she didn't know where it was - the MS Doctor didn'y identify it either and it seems unlikely that he'd go back to Trenzalore after "getting his life back".

    I don't subscribe to the idea of that being the parallel earth but if it is, having it become a wasteland could work with the stories to date - we've seen a load of people going to and from that world after the Doctor had said that such interdimensional travel could cause a disaster.

    My own feeling, however, is that this is going to be rather more about the 50 year history of the Doctor that merely harking back to DT's Doctor.

    I think that JH's "Doctor" is more metaphorical than physical - like a manifestation of a "guilty conscience" and that meeting was "in the Doctor's head".

    It wouldn't take much to write a plot where the Doctor's "mind" is an enemy - and we supposedly already saw that happen with the Dream Lord - plus we had - just last week - a number of scenes that took place within the Doctor's mind and had him arguing with another "part" of himself.

    Aside from anything else, Clara undid the changes to the Doctor's "life" but the GI is still in there - she didn't and couldn't actually destroy or remove it - and we already know that the GI can take on a physical appearence without physically existing.

    Lots of ways to have JH's Doctor without him ever existing in the flesh. Even his apparent age and the depressing landscape can be explained with a "Dorian Gray" style plot device.

    The point wasn't Trenzalore it was How did that version of 10 get..anywhere! I accept it may not have been Trenzalore, infact, it was probably Gallifrey, but the point still stands that 10 is in a parallel universe with no means of getting anywhere else!
  • AlexiRAlexiR Posts: 22,403
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    Also isn't a version of The Doctor in between McGann and Eccelston more interesting from a story perspective than Doctor 12? Particularly for a big special anniversary episode. If only because a Doctor that falls there on the time line would also presumably be The Doctor that fought the Time War...
  • AlexiRAlexiR Posts: 22,403
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    Aside from anything else, Clara undid the changes to the Doctor's "life" but the GI is still in there - she didn't and couldn't actually destroy or remove it - and we already know that the GI can take on a physical appearence without physically existing.
    Its clearly stated several times that entering the time stream would kill the Great Intelligence. It would have also killed Clara had The Doctor not gone in and saved her.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 529
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    TD Chesh wrote: »
    Not any Doctor, The real 9th Regeneration during the time war in which he doesnt act in the way the doctor normally would.



    I beg to differ, He is a doctor It said so right in the finally.
    "Introducing John Hurt as The Doctor" So Yes he is one of the Doctors. As for any thing else about him no one knows yet. Well, someone knows just not any of us. Most likely the 9th Doctor.


    What I'm more interested in is how come Clara Didn't see any future doctors. She only saw the 11 we're familiar with. Does that mean Smith really is the last Doctor, or rather the one that Died there.
  • JohnnyForgetJohnnyForget Posts: 24,061
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    I voted "other" in the hope that John Hurt might be playing "The Other", although that's unlikely as I don't think Moffat would touch the Cartmel Masterplan with a bargepole.
  • James FrederickJames Frederick Posts: 53,184
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    Cel1084 wrote: »


    What I'm more interested in is how come Clara Didn't see any future doctors. She only saw the 11 we're familiar with. Does that mean Smith really is the last Doctor, or rather the one that Died there.

    I think as 11 was dying when she entered the time stream and would have if she hadn't means at that point in time there was not going to be any more Doctors so wouldn't have met any future Doctor.

    Now she changed that and stopped him from dying who know how many more there will be
  • JohnnyForgetJohnnyForget Posts: 24,061
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    Cel1084 wrote: »

    What I'm more interested in is how come Clara Didn't see any future doctors. She only saw the 11 we're familiar with. Does that mean Smith really is the last Doctor, or rather the one that Died there.

    Maybe she did, she just didn't recognise them as such. Perhaps she had some sort of link with the Eleventh Doctor's memory and so would recognise his past selves, but not his future ones, as they would not be in his memory.
  • AlexiRAlexiR Posts: 22,403
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    I think as 11 was dying when she entered the time stream and would have if she hadn't means at that point in time there was not going to be any more Doctors so wouldn't have met any future Doctor.

    Now she changed that and stopped him from dying who know how many more there will be
    This is my assumption as well.

    The time stream Clara entered would have ended at Trenzalore with the death of Matt Smith's Doctor (and destruction of the universe) so there weren't future incarnations for her to meet and save. This would also be why the TARDIS interior at Trenzalore was the same as the current interior.
  • wazzyboywazzyboy Posts: 13,346
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    11 in old age but something happens that means time is rewritten so he will regenerate at some much sooner point.
  • Shandyman81Shandyman81 Posts: 349
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    Cel1084 wrote: »
    I beg to differ, He is a doctor It said so right in the finally.
    "Introducing John Hurt as The Doctor" So Yes he is one of the Doctors. As for any thing else about him no one knows yet. Well, someone knows just not any of us. Most likely the 9th Doctor.


    What I'm more interested in is how come Clara Didn't see any future doctors. She only saw the 11 we're familiar with. Does that mean Smith really is the last Doctor, or rather the one that Died there.

    11 himself said he was not the doctor by name. That title on screen was probably just for dramatic effect. He'll probably be referred to as the forgotten doctor, thereby keeping the numbering.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 529
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    11 himself said he was not the doctor by name. That title on screen was probably just for dramatic effect. He'll probably be referred to as the forgotten doctor, thereby keeping the numbering.

    No he said He didn't keep the promise that is inherent in the name, kinda of like a real doctor braking the hippocratic oath. He still went by the Doctor, he was just kind of disowned by the later incarnations for something he did.
  • Shandyman81Shandyman81 Posts: 349
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    Cel1084 wrote: »
    No he said He didn't keep the promise that is inherent in the name, kinda of like a real doctor braking the hippocratic oath. He still went by the Doctor, he was just kind of disowned by the later incarnations for something he did.

    11 said that Hurt was him, but was not the doctor, when Clara asked who hurt was.
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