Match of the Day - where's your non-white pundits?

[Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 313
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So we had Dion Dublin who is probably the best of the new pundits they've had this year on MotD2... him and Hartson and Jason Roberts all good.

And Dion has had, what, 1 appearance on the main Saturday night show?

Usually it's 'party line' Hansen, Lawro whose personality disappeared with the tache, with Shearer or Keown who are at least interesting and don't go down cliche street every damn time. But it is always an all-white cast. Guests have included Michael Owen, Philip Neville, Harry Redknapp, Robbie Savage (oh Robbie, I love ya really!)... any more?

And Football Focus had Clark Carlisle on a couple of times... Dan Walker, Robbie Savage and Martin Keown - while they're all very nice blokes (well, 2 out of 3 ain't bad) are hardly qualified to talk about the issue of racism in football week in, week out (and it's a issue week in, week out at the moment).

I can even remember Garth Crooks being told to calm down, live on air on Final Score, because he was a bit p*ssed off when Suarez refused to shake Evra's hand. He's the only BBC employee I've seen reacting with the appropriate bloody fury. Because it IS appropriate to get bloody furious with racism.

At what point do we start saying that the BBC's football coverage is part of the problem?

There's a more black managers than black pundits, and that's saying something.

Come on BBC, sort yerselves out.
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  • jlp95bwfcjlp95bwfc Posts: 18,289
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    :rolleyes:
  • Darren LethemDarren Lethem Posts: 61,596
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    So we had Dion Dublin who is probably the best of the new pundits they've had this year on MotD2... him and Hartson and Jason Roberts all good.

    And Dion has had, what, 1 appearance on the main Saturday night show?

    Usually it's 'party line' Hansen, Lawro whose personality disappeared with the tache, with Shearer or Keown who are at least interesting and don't go down cliche street every damn time. But it is always an all-white cast. Guests have included Michael Owen, Philip Neville, Harry Redknapp, Robbie Savage (oh Robbie, I love ya really!)... any more?

    And Football Focus had Clark Carlisle on a couple of times... Dan Walker, Robbie Savage and Martin Keown - while they're all very nice blokes (well, 2 out of 3 ain't bad) are hardly qualified to talk about the issue of racism in football week in, week out (and it's a issue week in, week out at the moment).

    I can even remember Garth Crooks being told to calm down, live on air on Final Score, because he was a bit p*ssed off when Suarez refused to shake Evra's hand. He's the only BBC employee I've seen reacting with the appropriate bloody fury. Because it IS appropriate to get bloody furious with racism.

    At what point do we start saying that the BBC's Football coverage is part of the problem?

    There's a more black managers than black pundits, and that's saying something.

    Come on BBC, sort yerselves out.

    So would you give the job to the best person or to the black man ? Isn't that racist on your behalf ?

    For my own opinion

    Hansen - Very good, best of the bunch
    Lawro - I know I am in a minority but I like him
    Shearer - Bit dull at times but the PL leading scorer so has to be respected
    Keown - Do not like the guy at all, didnt as a player and don't as a pundit
    Crooks - No, awful
    Dublin - Pretty good but not brilliant
    Bright - Better as co comm than pundit

    For the record it was Dion Dublin and Mark Bright on Final Score yesterday.

    And finally, why do you have to be black to have a view on racism ? I am white and think racists are the utter scum of the universe, am i not entitled to think that ?
  • ftvftv Posts: 31,668
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    Garth is on Final Score every week (or so it seems).
  • IJoinedInMayIJoinedInMay Posts: 26,319
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    Isn't Mark Bright one of their co-commentators for their live matches? Also, one guest MOTD has had (alongside the likes of Redknapp, Neville and Owen) is Vincent Kompany. If Hansen and Shearer are paid the type of wages I've seen mentioned on DS, then surely the BBC are going to try get their money's worth from them? So more of a case of getting what you pay for, rather than any racist agenda.
  • stevvy1986stevvy1986 Posts: 7,073
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    What a load of pathetic tosh. Even beginning to consider saying the BBC's football coverage could be part of the problem of racism in football is so utterly brainlessly moronic that anyone with at least half a working braincell that reads that post is going to be sat there thinking something along the lines of "are you for real/shut up and go away/what a load of absolute tosh" or things to that effect.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 7,488
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    Pundits should be chosen on availability and merit, proactive discrimination is more patronizing than normal discrimination...
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 313
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    So would you give the job to the best person or to the black man ? Isn't that racist on your behalf ?

    <...>

    And finally, why do you have to be black to have a view on racism ? I am white and think racists are the utter scum of the universe, am i not entitled to think that ?

    Whuh? No, seriously, WHUHFUH?

    I never suggested

    a)anyone should get a job because of their skin colour OR
    b)only black people can comment on racism

    But when there are a number of potential pundits, and none are very much 'better' than any other... why always pick the white ones?

    And the fact that white pundits can discuss racism, doesn't take away from the dodginess of the fact that it's almost always white pundits discussing racism.

    (And I usually avoid final score - wait for the main show etc.)
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 313
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    Pundits should be chosen on availability and merit, proactive discrimination is more patronizing than normal discrimination...

    Now then, you say that but in NFL when quotas were introduced for non-white candidates for coaching positions, the problems of a disproportionately low number of non-white coaches went away - fast.

    [as an edit - 'positive discrimination' is imo a weasel term - as it implies that non-white candidates (or non-male in other contexts) already have less 'merit'. The term should be 'mandatory non-negative discrimination'. It's never going to solve the issue, no single thing will ever solve racism - it's about doing the things you can to change a historically biased culture.]

    Of course, if anyone reads the OP you'll find a distinct LACK of any suggestion the BBC should positively discriminate. My point was that there are non-white pundits AS GOOD as the white pundits - but we only ever see the white pundits on the main Saturday show.
  • degsyhufcdegsyhufc Posts: 59,251
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    There is a lack of female involment in the game. What are your thoughts on that issue?
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 313
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    stevvy1986 wrote: »
    What a load of pathetic tosh. Even beginning to consider saying the BBC's football coverage could be part of the problem of racism in football is so utterly brainlessly moronic that anyone with at least half a working braincell that reads that post is going to be sat there thinking something along the lines of "are you for real/shut up and go away/what a load of absolute tosh" or things to that effect.

    I very much appreciate your considered and reasonable response. You clearly thought long and hard about the issue and in no way just typed out a knee-jerk reaction based on nothing more than ignorance. No, really.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 313
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    degsyhufc wrote: »
    There is a lack of female involment in the game. What are your thoughts on that issue?

    The proportion of female Premier League players is somewhat lower than the proportion of black male players. Still Gabby Logan, Jacqui Oakley, that Lizzie they patronised the s**t out of on the Football League show for a bit... and the lineswoman lassie... all got lovely hair. :rolleyes:
    Isn't Mark Bright one of their co-commentators for their live matches? Also, one guest MOTD has had (alongside the likes of Redknapp, Neville and Owen) is Vincent Kompany. If Hansen and Shearer are paid the type of wages I've seen mentioned on DS, then surely the BBC are going to try get their money's worth from them? So more of a case of getting what you pay for, rather than any racist agenda.

    Wasn't talking about commentators, just the headline show on Saturday nights. Forgot old Vincent - good call. And no, I hadn't thought about the contracts/wages issue - but even then, why Hansen and Shearer over Dublin and Crooks? (Or even why not all four on equal wages?)
  • stevvy1986stevvy1986 Posts: 7,073
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    I very much appreciate your considered and reasonable response. You clearly thought long and hard about the issue and in no way just typed out a knee-jerk reaction based on nothing more than ignorance. No, really.

    It was certainly not knee-jerk. The fact of the matter is you're going on about there very rarely being non white pundits on MOTD (so?) and asking when we start saying the BBC's football coverage is part of the problem, which is quite clearly a ridiculous thing to say, as to even begin considering suggesting any channels coverage of a sport may be part of a racism problem is completely moronic. I'm sorry, but it is.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 313
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    stevvy1986 wrote: »
    It was certainly not knee-jerk. The fact of the matter is you're going on about there very rarely being non white pundits on MOTD (so?) and asking when we start saying the BBC's football coverage is part of the problem, which is quite clearly a ridiculous thing to say, as to even begin considering suggesting any channels coverage of a sport may be part of a racism problem is completely moronic. I'm sorry, but it is.

    You want to really have a think about that post.

    Then again you're right. I mean, is there even an issue with racism at all in football? Probably not. I'm being moronic to even talk about it. Never mind then. Nothing to see here. Football's cleaner than clean, whiter than... well... y'know. It's all good. Whatever.
  • stevvy1986stevvy1986 Posts: 7,073
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    You want to really have a think about that post.

    Then again you're right. I mean, is there even an issue with racism at all in football? Probably not. I'm being moronic to even talk about it. Never mind then. Nothing to see here. Football's cleaner than clean, whiter than... well... y'know. It's all good. Whatever.

    I'm more than comfortable with my post. Do you know why? Because it's beyond ridiculous to suggest that a TV broadcaster not having more non white pundits on 1 or more of it's football shows is part of the problem in terms of racism in football. If you honestly, truthfully believe that a TV broadcaster not having more non white pundits on some of it's football shows is part of the problem of racism in football then I'm stunned.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 313
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    stevvy1986 wrote: »
    I'm more than comfortable with my post. Do you know why? Because it's beyond ridiculous to suggest that a TV broadcaster not having more non white pundits on 1 or more of it's football shows is part of the problem in terms of racism in football. If you honestly, truthfully believe that a TV broadcaster not having more non white pundits on some of it's football shows is part of the problem of racism in football then I'm stunned.

    I'm genuinely stunned you don't see it's a problem. I really am. Truthfully, honestly, gobsmacked.

    What about the lack of non-white managers? Is that not an issue either?
  • angarrackangarrack Posts: 5,493
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    The BBC tried a mixed race presentation regardless of ability a few years back. If I remember correctly it was Shearer, Hansen and Wright.

    Wright was an embarrassment who contributed nothing but soundbites in a 'you know what I mean' accent. Eventually he was given the push and he complained bitterly about not being taken seriously.

    It just proved that you have to recruit according to ability and not according to race or any other sort of quota.
  • stevvy1986stevvy1986 Posts: 7,073
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    Why is it a problem if 1 broadcaster doesn't have many non white pundits on some of it's shows? It's not. Other broadcasters aren't perfect in that respect either, but to even imply that it might be part of the problem is ridiculous.

    Same goes for non white managers. Give the job to the best candidate and if the best candidate for all 92 league clubs in England was white, then so be it. As long as the job is given to the person the chairman/chairwoman feels is the best candidate to have applied then I don't see a problem.

    How many non white people have the relevant qualifications and/or some useful coaching/assistant manager experience, or even just go around the world learning things from different coaches in different cultures, showing they have the determination to prove themselves and improve themselves by learning from others?
  • Darren LethemDarren Lethem Posts: 61,596
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    So Dion Dublin and Mark Bright been on Final Score yesterday don't count as you don't watch it ?

    Are you starting to feel a bit isolated in your argument on here ?
  • stevvy1986stevvy1986 Posts: 7,073
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    So Dion Dublin and Mark Bright been on Final Score yesterday don't count as you don't watch it ?

    Are you starting to feel a bit isolated in your argument on here ?

    Ah but he'll say "oh but they weren't on the main MOTD show".
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 313
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    Except Dion Dublin (and there are others besides him) does have the ability - as do Jason Roberts and Vincent Kompany (although as current players probably won't be available as often) . I'm not suggesting positive discrimination. It sounds like you're suggesting no black pundits would be good enough, which I'm sure you're not.

    Michael Owen gets on both MotD shows as much as Dublin, and he's as wooden as a dead tree. How does that work?

    If there are non-white pundits as good as the white pundits, why do they always go with white pundits? (With 2 exceptions in the past 2 years - so 30 or 40 shows? And twice it wasn't exclusively white?)
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 313
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    stevvy1986 wrote: »
    Ah but he'll say "oh but they weren't on the main MOTD show".

    Exactly. That's the point - patronise the non-white pundits with a tiny show that gets next to no viewers, but in the headline slot? Oh god no, they couldn't do that. (Seriously?)

    It's like saying "There are non-white assistant managers". Oh great, so they're good enough to coach, but we can't have them in charge of owt.
  • stevvy1986stevvy1986 Posts: 7,073
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    Matter of opinion as to whether someone is good enough. Plus unless it's changed since I last listened to it, Jason Roberts is a presenter on 6-0-6 as well as travelling with Reading as a player, so it's not really realistic for him to appear on MOTD on a Saturday night after being with Reading wherever they are in the country, doing his radio show and then go to Manchester to do MOTD.
  • blitzben85blitzben85 Posts: 3,020
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    Garth Crooks is a terrible pundit and is there for one reason, his skin colour.
  • stevvy1986stevvy1986 Posts: 7,073
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    Oh and Mark Bright and Leroy Rosenior (Leroy more so) are regulars on the Football League Show. It may not be MOTD and it may usually be on after midnight, but even you've got to admit that it's hardly like the BBC (and other broadcasters, as you seem to be forgetting them) have 0 non white pundits. Does it ACTUALLY matter if a non white pundit is on MOTD, MOTD2, Final Score or whatever? Quite honestly, no. They have non white pundits, and various ones are on the various shows regularly.
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