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[Speculation] Orson and Danny's relationship
johnnysaucepn
Posts: 6,775 Forum Member
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What if we've got it the wrong way round?
We (and the characters) have been led to understand that Orson is Danny's descendent, and that Clara and Danny's relationship is therefore predestined, or at least would involve a whole bunch of paradox if they were to break up instead.
What if Danny is Orson's child instead? What if Danny is taking after his colonel father by joining the army, instead of the other way around? What if Orson is killed in the future, and for some reason, the Doctor and Clara have to protect baby Rupert by taking him back into the past, to an orphanage? What if they leave him with a special soldier toy, in the box with the rest of the orphanage's toys - one that brought the Doctor much comfort as a child?
Yes, it would be a big time loop, but only for a little soldier toy. And it would free up Danny and Clara's future for storytelling.
We (and the characters) have been led to understand that Orson is Danny's descendent, and that Clara and Danny's relationship is therefore predestined, or at least would involve a whole bunch of paradox if they were to break up instead.
What if Danny is Orson's child instead? What if Danny is taking after his colonel father by joining the army, instead of the other way around? What if Orson is killed in the future, and for some reason, the Doctor and Clara have to protect baby Rupert by taking him back into the past, to an orphanage? What if they leave him with a special soldier toy, in the box with the rest of the orphanage's toys - one that brought the Doctor much comfort as a child?
Yes, it would be a big time loop, but only for a little soldier toy. And it would free up Danny and Clara's future for storytelling.
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If Danny is Orson's son and not his Great Grandfather how would
1. Orson have a story about one of his Great Grand parents being a Time Traveler.
2. Have the Toy Soldier as a family heirloom.
Unless you are saying that Danny is his son and his Great Grandfather.
If he is both then the facts actually fit.
The toy soldier is passed down through the generations and the story of the time traveler is young Rupert being brought back from the 22nd Century to the 20th.
The only outstanding thing is that Orson implied that Clara was a family member as well.
I suggested something very similar - only with Orson actually BEING Danny rather than being his forebear.
The Doctor ASKED if that might be the case - Orson didn't know her (never seen and didn't own a photo - EVERYONE takes photos of people these days - even schoolkids, if you watched last week). There was no DNA test - nothing.
Here's a suggestion - what if little Rupert doesn't change his name to Danny - he changes it to Orson. As "Orson" he joins the army and ends up taking part in a secret time-travel project. He gets trapped in the future for years and goes insane. He kills his co-pilot. The Doctor and Clara then appear and he is sent to a time when there ARE working time machines - so he steal one (just like the Doctor) and travels back to 2014 so he can take revenge on Clara for talking him into becoming a soldier and ruining his life (in his insane mind). He changes his name to "Danny" and makes friends with Clara BEFORE she meets Orson cos he already knows that she won't make the connection.
The "clues" - Orson is scared of the dark and - bizarrely - had TWO BEDS - one of which was a hammock with no "underneath" for the quilt-monster to hide under. The name "Orson" was chosen co sit was the name he gave his ORANGE ROBOT - just as he later choses the name "Danny" cos of his toy soldier. There are no "monsters under the bed" and only a child and a mentally unstable adult thinks there is - the Doctor knows that.
It's the exact opposite of the Doctor's story - Clara talked him OUT of becoming a soldier and helped him become a "good man".
(I just made all of that up - it's not a "theory" - just a way to show that Orson could come before Danny in "Rupert's" timeline - once you accept that almost EVERYTHING we "know" about any of the "Pinks" is assumption - or the Doctor deliberately trying to fool/confuse Clara for some reason)
As I said in the post, I only wrote that to show how this entire series hinges on ASSUMPTIONS. I could give further "circumstantial evidence" - we've had no mention of "Danny" owning the toy soldier and it would seem to be te last thing he'd hold onto and regard as an heirloom. (But I could turn that around and say that Danny's widow might pass it on as "the soldier without a gun")
Basically - the only thing standing in the way of the possibility of the line going R>O>D is time-travel - and that's hardly in short supply in DW this year.
I also pointed out that Moffat repeated uses something twice - so if there IS a twist and the little boy we saw doesn't grow up to become the man we are assuming he does - that may give further weight to my suggestion that the kid in the barn wasn't the Doctor.
Not sure that he did. The DOCTOR asked if there was might be a family connection but as I pointed out (and was shot down) he didn't run even a simple scan to TEST that possibility - despite the fact that we've repeatedly been shown the Tardis perform far more complex medical scans in the last couple of years (And don't forget that the Doctor repeatedly scanned Amy without her knowledge).
Again - it was all about ASSUMPTION - and as I said above, exactly the same thing happened again with the "It's an egg" claim - not so much as a wave of a sonic before making the claim.
2. Toy soldiers can be family heirlooms for any number of reasons. That would actually simplify things, and make it not a loop. If we take the Mickey/Martha hypothesis above, then it could go Mickey -> Orson -> Clara -> Doctor -> Rupert, ending up in inspiring Danny to be a soldier. Instead of Rupert -> Orson -> Clara -> Doctor as we've seen so far.
But he didn't know - I believe he was inferring from her shocked reaction to his face, the fact that she's a time traveller, and the Doctor had suspected a familial connection. Not easy to tell since we don't know what stories he's been told about his g-g-grandma.
Prime example - can you say with absolute certainty that Danny and the child "Rupert" are the same person? It was almost hinted at but never stated. It's bizarre that someone decided to have him change his name for no reason - and doubly bizarre that we haven't been told that reason or been told why Danny acted like he'd been caught peeking into the girl's changing room when Clara mentioned that name. That sort of lack of clarity creates confusion and leave the viewer feeling that there's other connections - for example, could that name change actually be there to tip us off that he's changed his name more than once and that he's also known as Orson - that "Orson" wasn't actually a descendent but the same person?
Re-read that thread from that point onwards - cos there's a lot of stuff on this subject - including a number of posts from yourself and others offering counter arguments that might be useful.
As I said in post 158...
"Orson" was "accidentally found" by the Doctor, who then sent him - in a space suit and helmet - into a restaurant where Danny had conveniently just nipped to the loo. Not a single diner other than Clara even noticed a bright-orange spaceman. The only person who gave us ANY information about "Orson" was the Doctor and he offered no proof or detail of how he supposedly knew that information about Orson.
And best of all, the Doctor apparently managed to trace the family tree from "Rupert" to "Orson" but failed to find any mention of "Danny Pink - the teacher" or of "Clara Pink" - the teacher.
So tell me - exactly why DID the doctor "assume" a family connection between "Orson" and Clara?
According to what he said, it was purely because she had "thought about" something that linked to him - so the Doctor said "he must be a relative". But hang on - by that argument, "Rupert Pink" must also be a relative???? How does that work - is she now supposed to be "Rupert's" great grandma as well?
And we still have the OTHER big coincidence - that the bloke who looks exactly like Clara's fella just happens to be the world's first time traveller AND he was trapped and dying until the Doctor and Clara rescued him. It may not have been labelled as such but the human race's first time traveller dead at the end of time - wouldn't that be a major FIXED-POINT?
So we have three people, with three names - two of them are (so we are lead to beleive but not actually told - for some reason) the same person and the third one - who looks exactly like the second one - even down to being pretty-much the same age - isn't the same person and apparently doesn't recognise Clara BUT he does have a time machine and NONE of them can tell us anything straight-forward about themselves - Danny hints at some past life and "family", Orson has to be "explained" by the Doctor and "Rupert" is in a children's home for reasons not explained and has no photos of any family in his room.
And you say it's wrong to suggest that there may be more to tell about those people?
Not everybody I don't have any photos of me taken as I don't like being photographed
Ok saying any may be exaggerating I do have some but in all of them you can't see my face it's either wearing a mask or my hair is covering my face so any photo wouldn't do any good for knowing who I was.
She actually called "Orson" Danny first - then "realised" it wasn't Danny. It was after that exchange that the Doctor asked if "you two are related by any chance" (without testing - why not??)
I have said repeatedly that getting Clara to stick her hands in a box full of cottonwool and leds was a scam - he flew the Tardis to the children's home and to the crashed ship co she already knew what was there - and last week he admitted doing exactly that when he took Clara to the Orient Express on that specific date.
He's not an idiot - nothing is accidental and he knows something about the Pinks - everything he's doing comes back to something he knows about Danny Pink and how he impacts on Clara's future.
What I'm going for is the bigger or more explicit holes - where there are no facts, or where the characters have made guesses that could be wrong for very good reasons.
For example, Rupert told us that was going to change his name, and then the Doctor gave him a head full of dreams of being 'Dan the soldier man'. From a viewer's perspective, this makes sense, partly to catch Clara off guard when she realises who 'Rupert' is, and partly to give her enough information to shoot herself in the foot later on. While there's enough wiggle room that it could be interpreted differently, it's not like there's a glaring gap that doesn't fit the story.
Why Rupert was in a children's home is an example of something that could go either way - either it's of no consequence, and just a means of letting Clara talk to him that doesn't involve breaking into his parent's house, or it's a chapter in his life he hasn't talked about and is ripe for development and speculation. We're focussed on Orson's heritage, perhaps there's something to be said about Danny's?
If it was supposed to be a done deal that Orson is Clara's descendent, they might have made it more explicit - actually have Orson recognise her, or have a photo to prove it. But they go out of their way to make it clear that Orson doesn't know for sure, and I think that's fertile ground for character's jumping to conclusions. Or they want enough ambiguity that we don't know whether Danny and Clara will end up together. Either way, I think it's possible to resolve things both ways without too many paradoxes or suppressed memories or cloning.
And how many people have photos of their great-great-grandmothers lying around?
Might be. No evidence either way for that one. We know his trip to the Orient Express was an outright manipulation of Clara because he told us so.
Very true
Even if you wanted to use the everyone saves them so they will always be there argmunt all it would take would be for "Orson" to say and all photos on the internet got wiped out in 2050 and we had to start from scratch.
You're missing the point.
You and I don't have those photos cos photography was relatively new, expensive and used glass, metal or paper to hold the image. Cameras were bulky and costly and just taking a couple of dozen photos involved buying film, taking the snaps then taking or sending them to be processed at considerable cost - and then storing or displaying them at further cost and use of space.
Clara is in her mid 20's. Digital photography has existed for most if not all of her life and since she was Courtney's age, there have been incredibly cheap digital cameras at the same time as personal computers capable of storing millions of photos at minimal cost. Since Clara was in her late teens, there have been mobile phones capable of taking and storing thousands of extremely high resolution photos and video and since she was around twenty, capable of taking a photo or video and having it appear online within seconds and at no financial cost to the individual.
We may not have photo's of our great granny but 100 years from now, people will because the people taking all the photos TODAY will be those old folk by then.
But it didn't - we know that cos we've seen the future and there are photos of our time and earlier/later.
Again - no it wasn't.
Rupert and Orson had that obsession - the Doctor was investigating THEM.
Physical photos and uploaded photo may have being erased.
And a giant space-cat might have eaten them
None of which is derived from anything in the show or in JohhnyS's suggestion.
Ok then from what we know of in the show
At some point in the future Clara and or The Doctor erased them as he has erased photos of himself before.
Orson was lying he does have photos but as a time traveller know that he can not tell anybody info on their own future "Spoilers"
At no point anywhere in the show has it been STATED that Danny used to be "Rupert" or that "Orson" is descended from "Danny" or Clara.
In each case, the only person who could answer that question has side-stepped or looked blank when asked.
Which totally defeats the suggestion YOU made that Orson is Danny's ancestor unless you then explain how the toy soldier got from Orson to Clara and then to "Barney" and then into the box and was then randomly selected by Clara and favourited by Rupert.
When you try to work that out you'll realise that your "simplest" explanation is far from it.
Again, you're flipping from one idea to another and totally contradicting yourself. Your entire case in starting this thread is that Orson is Danny's forebear - they share the same heritage.
Has anyone even suggested "clones" or "paradoxes" or "suppressed memories"???
I said that if Orson comes earlier than Danny (which is the same whether he's an earlier part of Danny's life or his grandfather) then he simply would not know Clara - the fact that he's in her future when they met is irrelevant.
I suggested that Orson meeting Clara -and liking her - and having a time machine - might tempt him to travel back to her present and pose as "Danny - the maths teacher"
And don't forget the last paragraph of my original post...
(I just made all of that up - it's not a "theory" - just a way to show that Orson could come before Danny in "Rupert's" timeline - once you accept that almost EVERYTHING we "know" about any of the "Pinks" is assumption - or the Doctor deliberately trying to fool/confuse Clara for some reason)
So why didn't he recognise her or the name "Danny"?
Why did he agree to meet her at all if he's so scared of "spoilers" ?
The Doctor was part of that meeting and conversation - your suggestion involves us only seeing a rewritten scene and that could only happen if the Doctor crossed his own timeline - which can't happen so it didn't
Why did the Doctor take Clara to the crashed timeship?
He'd already rescued "Orson" and if he just wanted Orson and Clara to meet to see if there was a "family connection", he'd already done that too.
Again he may be lying
If your theory that Danny is Orson is true then that is even more reason to lie.
Your entire theory on this is that Orson must have a photo of his great great gran when there in show treasons to why he may not or is lying.
Because The Doctor knows who Orson is he knows what happens to Danny and Clara
I think it's just what The Doctor does why take her on the train why take her anywhere where he knows there will be danger it's what he does and knows she likes it
I don't know what you're trying to say - the reason the Doctor found Rupert and Orson was solely because he was trying to track down the 'creatures'. He found Rupert because of the combination of Clara remembering her dream and thinking about Danny. So the Doctor ended up at the point where Danny had that dream. He later found Orson for the same reasons - but he still thinks it's because of a connection to Clara, not Danny. Either way, he doesn't much care, because he's obsessed with the monsters in the dark.
I kind of already did that. We saw Orson hand the soldier to Clara, thinking she was family. She handed it to the Doctor (or "Barney", if you insist, although the episode says it's the Doctor). If the Doctor and Clara were the ones to enrol Rupert into the home, then the soldier could have gone with him. By the time we meet him, that soldier was already Rupert's favourite.
That's a restatement of my case, not a contradiction of it. As I said, we've been focussed on Orson's heritage, and not examined Danny's, because we assume that Orson's history is Danny and that Danny's is irrelevant.
Yes. Lots of people, all over the forum.
If you're willing to throw out everything we know at any point, then any story can make sense. While I'm fine with the Doctor lying to his companion, the writer lying to the viewer is a different business.