Oscar Pistorius Bail Hearing Begins

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  • KapellmeisterKapellmeister Posts: 41,322
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    Absolutely terrifying thought isn't it. Off my holiday list for sure.

    No-one who is potentially innocent should be put in such a place as that, let alone someone with severe disabilities.

    I can only hope that bail is granted :(
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 16,986
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    GinaH wrote: »
    If it was pitch dark in the bedroom, where there was more outside artificial light (presuming the complex was lit) able to get in through the large patio doors, than the smaller bathroom window, it still doesnt hold water to me.

    "During the early morning hours of 14 February 2013, I woke up, went onto the balcony to bring the fan in and closed the sliding doors, the blinds and the curtains."

    The bathroom window is 4/5 the width of the bathroom wall.
  • franciefrancie Posts: 31,089
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    Absolutely terrifying thought isn't it. Off my holiday list for sure.

    I'm all for offenders being punished but those conditions are just mind blowing - doesn't seem to be much of a deterrent though.
  • MadMoo40MadMoo40 Posts: 1,848
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    APPARENTLY if he gets bail his trainer has said he will be back training tomorrow!!!

    So he doesnt need time to grieve over the apparent accidental death of his girlfriend :rolleyes:

    Perhaps his trainer wants him to focus on something, and to keep his life as "normal" as possible for the sake of Oscar's mental health. If this was a tragic accident, he could be a potential suicide risk and probably isn't a good idea to leave him to sit around the house all day thinking about what he's done.

    By training, he is around people who can keep an eye on him. Its probably good for his health anyway - his body is used to training and if he stopped suddenly, that could lead to health issues. Perhaps even a weight gain could lead to his prosthetic legs not fitting, rendering him unable to walk?

    I'm sure he hasn't got over Reeva's death already.
  • tvqueen1905tvqueen1905 Posts: 82,843
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    if he is bailed and starts training tomorrow does that mean he will be travelling to compete abroad??????
  • aggsaggs Posts: 29,458
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    It clearly says "Performance enhancement, Recovery."

    It is a testosterone booster not actually testosterone.

    Testosterone repairs and builds muscle.

    Other than anecdotal evidence that I know people who use it as part of their "fitness" regime that's all I can provide.

    Me as well.

    Artictle from, ironically enough, LiveStrong

    http://www.livestrong.com/article/220964-the-effects-of-testosterone-boosters-on-the-body/
  • Deep PurpleDeep Purple Posts: 63,255
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    calico_pie wrote: »
    I assumed it was part of some legal definition, at least in SA, as the prosecution specifically cited "premeditated murder".

    I dont know their definition, but they have charged him with murder, so it sounds similar to ours.

    His actions are premeditated, if only for a short time.
  • KapellmeisterKapellmeister Posts: 41,322
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    MadMoo40 wrote: »
    Perhaps his trainer wants him to focus on something, and to keep his life as "normal" as possible for the sake of Oscar's mental health. If this was a tragic accident, he could be a potential suicide risk and probably isn't a good idea to leave him to sit around the house all day thinking about what he's done.

    By training, he is around people who can keep an eye on him. Its probably good for his health anyway - his body is used to training and if he stopped suddenly, that could lead to health issues. Perhaps even a weight gain could lead to his prosthetic legs not fitting, rendering him unable to walk?

    I'm sure he hasn't got over Reeva's death already.

    I totally agree. Some of assumptions people are making on this thread, like him 'pretending' to cry in the court room or not caring about Reeva's death, are utterly vile.
  • Deep PurpleDeep Purple Posts: 63,255
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    calico_pie wrote: »
    In purely practical and legal terms, absolutely.

    But in this case, I think there's a big difference between him shooting who he thought was an intruder, and shooting his girlfriend.

    Legal terms is what should apply.

    His sdefence is self defence, which means he has to have a genuine belief his, or anothers life is in danger, and that his actions were reasonable in the circumstances.

    I dont see how they can be.
  • PootmatootPootmatoot Posts: 15,640
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    It clearly says "Performance enhancement, Recovery."

    It is a testosterone booster not actually testosterone.

    Testosterone repairs and builds muscle.

    Other than anecdotal evidence that I know people who use it as part of their "fitness" regime that's all I can provide.



    No it doesn't, it says "homeopathic male performance /reproductive system enhancer with organ extracts, temporary relief of symptoms associated with male sexual weakness: Lack of stamina, Nocturnal emissions, Male hormone imbalance."


    The words "performance enhancement" and "recovery" are just the category tags, not a description of the product. They're also clearly euphemisms for male sexual dysfunction.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 16,986
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    Steenkamp relatives say 'we are here to represent Reeva' won't comment on #Pistorius bail decision
  • calico_piecalico_pie Posts: 10,060
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    I dont know their definition, but they have charged him with murder, so it sounds similar to ours.

    His actions are premeditated, if only for a short time.

    I still dispute the premeditation thing.

    It has been argued that premeditation does not need to mean weeks in the planning, Columbo style.

    Neither does it mean it has to literally be carried out in a short enough time period where it could not be considered.

    The pertinent part is the part about giving it reasonable thought. In either possible scenario here (violent argument gone wrong or reckless action against a perceived intruder), I do not think OP had time to give it rational thought.
  • streetwisestreetwise Posts: 787
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    petertard wrote: »
    His 4 bullets passing through the locked door without him being able to aim at the target are supposed to have scored 4 hits, none of them missing an unseen target, with hits to the knee, hand, arm, and the fatal head shot.

    Shooting at an unseen target through a locked door, despite shooting into a confined space, the relatively small toilet cubicle, you would be lucky to secure 1 hit out of 4, with 3 bullets missing the target altogether. Indeed, all 4 might miss the target, and if 1 did hit, it could not be so precisely positioned, and would most likely hit the target somewhere in the torso, where the target is largest.

    OP secured the best hits for immobilising the target and removing any potential weapon and then to kill the target.

    His 4 hits are like those you would get if you were a very good shot aiming at a target, such as the target areas you would aim at on a pistol range with an blacked out target, the intruder type of target but just the outline.

    You would see to hit the knee to immobilise the intruder, then hit the hand in case he had a gun, then the other arm in case he had another, then the head shot to kill the intruder.

    Firing through a locked door at an unseen target just is not going to get those hits.

    What I think really happened is that he was under the apprehension that there was an intruder and shot Reeva, to immobile the intruder, disarm him and then kill him. He shot her through the open toilet door with his pistol training taking over as if under "automatic pilot" and did not stop until he delivered the head shot, the fatal shot.

    She was holding her mobile phone in her hand and he mistook this for a gun, and acted in self defence, but also with an "irresistible impulse" to kill the intruder.

    The light may have been dim, and he saw the outline of a figure and shot at it. Only after the 4 bullets were discharged and the figure fell down dead, did he realise it was Reeva.

    He then became rational again and realised this looked very bad, so he took her downstairs and then came up with the story that he shot through a locked door and could not tell if it was her. So, he went back and shot 4 extra bullets through the door, picked up the extra cartridges and bullets and flushed them down the toilet. He also tried to hide her mobile phone.

    He thought it would look like her intended to kill her if he would admit to shooting through an open door, but he could have the defence of self defence and diminished responsibility.

    This explains the 2 sets of 4 shots 17 minutes apart.

    His apprenhension was that what he saw was an intruder. Acting under an irresistible impulse, he would not have even realised when he got out of bed that she was not there.

    Botha went with the story of the bullets being shot through the closed door, but he is no great brain, The new guy might be able to work out that it does not add up to the precision of the hits to Reeva.

    Wouldn't ballistic investigation determine whether the bullets that killed Reeva had come through a door or not?
  • GinaHGinaH Posts: 853
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    "During the early morning hours of 14 February 2013, I woke up, went onto the balcony to bring the fan in and closed the sliding doors, the blinds and the curtains."

    The bathroom window is 4/5 the width of the bathroom wall.

    Sure, but the patio doors, I would argue, are far bigger than any bathroom window I have seen. And is it coincidental he closed the blinds and curtains, just before he heard a noise in the bathroom?
  • Deep PurpleDeep Purple Posts: 63,255
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    petertard wrote: »
    His 4 bullets passing through the locked door without him being able to aim at the target are supposed to have scored 4 hits, none of them missing an unseen target, with hits to the knee, hand, arm, and the fatal head shot.

    Shooting at an unseen target through a locked door, despite shooting into a confined space, the relatively small toilet cubicle, you would be lucky to secure 1 hit out of 4, with 3 bullets missing the target altogether. Indeed, all 4 might miss the target, and if 1 did hit, it could not be so precisely positioned, and would most likely hit the target somewhere in the torso, where the target is largest.

    OP secured the best hits for immobilising the target and removing any potential weapon and then to kill the target.

    His 4 hits are like those you would get if you were a very good shot aiming at a target, such as the target areas you would aim at on a pistol range with an blacked out target, the intruder type of target but just the outline.

    You would see to hit the knee to immobilise the intruder, then hit the hand in case he had a gun, then the other arm in case he had another, then the head shot to kill the intruder.

    Firing through a locked door at an unseen target just is not going to get those hits.

    What I think really happened is that he was under the apprehension that there was an intruder and shot Reeva, to immobile the intruder, disarm him and then kill him. He shot her through the open toilet door with his pistol training taking over as if under "automatic pilot" and did not stop until he delivered the head shot, the fatal shot.

    She was holding her mobile phone in her hand and he mistook this for a gun, and acted in self defence, but also with an "irresistible impulse" to kill the intruder.

    The light may have been dim, and he saw the outline of a figure and shot at it. Only after the 4 bullets were discharged and the figure fell down dead, did he realise it was Reeva.

    He then became rational again and realised this looked very bad, so he took her downstairs and then came up with the story that he shot through a locked door and could not tell if it was her. So, he went back and shot 4 extra bullets through the door, picked up the extra cartridges and bullets and flushed them down the toilet. He also tried to hide her mobile phone.

    He thought it would look like her intended to kill her if he would admit to shooting through an open door, but he could have the defence of self defence and diminished responsibility.

    This explains the 2 sets of 4 shots 17 minutes apart.

    His apprenhension was that what he saw was an intruder. Acting under an irresistible impulse, he would not have even realised when he got out of bed that she was not there.

    Botha went with the story of the bullets being shot through the closed door, but he is no great brain, The new guy might be able to work out that it does not add up to the precision of the hits to Reeva.

    It's a good theory in parts, and I must say I have wondered how he managed to get four hits out of four whilst shooting blind. It would obviously be possible if he fired them all in the same direction, and that is where she was.

    I cant think they wouldn't have established if extra shots had been fired though.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 16,986
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    Pootmatoot wrote: »
    No it doesn't, it says "homeopathic male performance /reproductive system enhancer with organ extracts, temporary relief of symptoms associated with male sexual weakness: Lack of stamina, Nocturnal emissions, Male hormone imbalance."


    The words "performance enhancement" and "recovery" are just the category tags, not a description of the product. They're also clearly euphemisms for male sexual dysfunction.

    Well I'm not going to argue the point with you. I know what athletes, bodybuilders etc use it for as do others on this thread.
  • ShappyShappy Posts: 14,531
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    Decision imminent!
  • calico_piecalico_pie Posts: 10,060
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    Legal terms is what should apply.

    His sdefence is self defence, which means he has to have a genuine belief his, or anothers life is in danger, and that his actions were reasonable in the circumstances.

    I dont see how they can be.

    He alleges that he believes he stood between an armed intruder and an escape route of that armed intruder.

    If we are to believe he genuinely thought that, how could that not involve thinking your life was in danger?

    I don't know about you, but if I thought there was an armed intruder in our bathroom, and knew they had to get past me to flee the scene, I'd feel plenty threatened.
  • PootmatootPootmatoot Posts: 15,640
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    I totally agree. Some of assumptions people are making on this thread, like him 'pretending' to cry in the court room or not caring about Reeva's death, are utterly vile.


    Well if you're of the camp that suspects that this was the horrible end of a period of brutal domestic violence, "not caring about Reeva's death" isn't a vile thing to think, it's quite likely.
  • StarryNight1983StarryNight1983 Posts: 4,593
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    Ber wrote: »
    Do you have a source for this apparent statement?

    of course i havent i made it up:rolleyes:

    it was in one of the stories i read !!!
  • MuggsyMuggsy Posts: 19,251
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    Pootmatoot wrote: »
    No it doesn't, it says "homeopathic male performance /reproductive system enhancer with organ extracts, temporary relief of symptoms associated with male sexual weakness: Lack of stamina, Nocturnal emissions, Male hormone imbalance."


    The words "performance enhancement" and "recovery" are just the category tags, not a description of the product. They're also clearly euphemisms for male sexual dysfunction.

    Some further information:

    http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/goalanabolic.htm

    http://www.bodybuildingwarehouse.co.uk/supplements/testosterone-boosters

    http://www.bodyshapersfitness.com/product/testosterone_boosters

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodybuilding_supplement

    Plenty of information out there for use in bodybuilding and athletics.
  • Deep PurpleDeep Purple Posts: 63,255
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    calico_pie wrote: »
    I still dispute the premeditation thing.

    It has been argued that premeditation does not need to mean weeks in the planning, Columbo style.

    Neither does it mean it has to literally be carried out in a short enough time period where it could not be considered.

    The pertinent part is the part about giving it reasonable thought. In either possible scenario here (violent argument gone wrong or reckless action against a perceived intruder), I do not think OP had time to give it rational thought.

    He's had time to get a gun, and go to the bathroom, and fire the gun.

    That shows an intent to kill. If you fire into an enclosed space where someone is, it is deemed to be likely death or serious injury will follow. It is here anyway, and it would be murder.
  • KapellmeisterKapellmeister Posts: 41,322
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    Pootmatoot wrote: »
    Well if you're of the camp that suspects that this was the horrible end of a period of brutal domestic violence, "not caring about Reeva's death" isn't a vile thing to think, it's quite likely.

    Oh please. There's nothing to indicate that happened at all.
  • aggsaggs Posts: 29,458
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    aggs wrote: »
    Pootmatoot wrote: »
    No it doesn't, it says "homeopathic male performance /reproductive system enhancer with organ extracts, temporary relief of symptoms associated with male sexual weakness: Lack of stamina, Nocturnal emissions, Male hormone imbalance."


    The words "performance enhancement" and "recovery" are just the category tags, not a description of the product. They're also clearly euphemisms for male sexual dysfunction.

    The LiveStrong article explains why athletes take the stuff quite well.
  • PootmatootPootmatoot Posts: 15,640
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    Well I'm not going to argue the point with you. I know what athletes, bodybuilders etc use it for as do others on this thread.



    I'm not quite sure why you're presuming he doesn't just use it for sexual dysfunction.
This discussion has been closed.