I love how much angst Doctor Who causes its fans. I read the first few pages of that End of Time thread today for the first time with a mixture of bafflement, sadness and ultimately amusement. Glad to see nothings changed but deary me. Jaw dropping stuff.
Personally I love Doctor Who. Its greaaaaaaaaaaaaaat! Its just some of the people who watch it that spoil it.
I'm lighter than diet air. The constant "reactions" to any mention of leaked scripts is just boring, that's all.
I think its more your oft repeated and quite tedious pronouncements on the quality of S8 based on a few leaked scripts. Most people would agree you lack the necessary insight to form a valuable opinion but this doesn't seem to stop you uttering it at every opportunity. No one cares. You're not the only one who has read the leaks. But you do seem to be the only one writing off an entire series because of it.
I love how much angst Doctor Who causes its fans. I read the first few pages of that End of Time thread today for the first time with a mixture of bafflement, sadness and ultimately amusement. Glad to see nothings changed but deary me. Jaw dropping stuff.
Personally I love Doctor Who. Its greaaaaaaaaaaaaaat! Its just some of the people who watch it that spoil it.
I think its more your oft repeated and quite tedious pronouncements on the quality of S8 based on a few leaked scripts. Most people would agree you lack the necessary insight to form a valuable opinion but this doesn't seem to stop you uttering it at every opportunity. No one cares. You're not the only one who has read the leaks. But you do seem to be the only one writing off an entire series because of it.
Yes, you're right of course, I really need the score and special effects to make a more sound judgement on the quality of the stories.
Oh wait, no, silly me--all that's needed is the scripts. Which I happen to have, so my opinion is completely valid. Something tells me if I were brimming with praise you wouldn't be making an issue out of it.
my only concern there is that the vast majority of the standalone eps in recent series have been complete dogshit. And I happen to know that at least five episodes of the next thirteen are mediocre at best, so I'm not brimming with confidence for the rest.
Oh well. At least others will enjoy them. You can't please everybody.
I think its more your oft repeated and quite tedious pronouncements on the quality of S8 based on a few leaked scripts. Most people would agree you lack the necessary insight to form a valuable opinion but this doesn't seem to stop you uttering it at every opportunity. No one cares. You're not the only one who has read the leaks. But you do seem to be the only one writing off an entire series because of it.
Well the ignore button is there for you for any poster who becomes a particularly troublesome bat up your nightdress, but personally I feel happier reading freely expressed comments from posters even if i disagree with them than i do reading posts (BIB) which try to sit on them by quoting some unfounded group-thought opinion.
Well the ignore button is there for you for any poster who becomes a particularly troublesome bat up your nightdress, but personally I feel happier reading freely expressed comments from posters even if i disagree with them than i do reading posts (BIB) which try to sit on them by quoting some unfounded group-thought opinion.
I would've imagined anyone with even the vaguest idea of what they are talking about (IE the ones worth listening to) would suggest you cannot judge the final episodes quality based on script alone.
I would've imagined anyone with even the vaguest idea of what they are talking about (IE the ones worth listening to) would suggest you cannot judge the final episodes quality based on script alone.
You can judge the story, which is far and away the most important above all else. Everything else is window dressing.
I notice you also steered well clear of addressing my point that you wouldn't have these complaints about my opinions if they were more positive. A little too much truth in that for you?
Well the ignore button is there for you for any poster who becomes a particularly troublesome bat up your nightdress, but personally I feel happier reading freely expressed comments from posters even if i disagree with them than i do reading posts (BIB) which try to sit on them by quoting some unfounded group-thought opinion.
You can judge the story, which is far and away the most important above all else. Everything else is window dressing.
A good director and good actors can most certainly make a poor script far better on screen than in the reading (the Merlin cast and crew were brilliant at that particular trick!). Conversely a good script can be ruined by rubbish direction. You're absolutely right though that the script does allow you to judge the story and the way that narrative unfolds and you'll never get something brilliant if the script is so-so.
Personally I think the scripts are average - not outstanding, not terrible - but Peter and Jenna are both very good and will make the best of them. I'm still not expecting much change though apart from a more grumpy/less instantly likeable lead and am definitely of the opinion this series should have been Moffat's last. It just needs a completely fresh pov now.
You can judge the story, which is far and away the most important above all else. Everything else is window dressing.
I notice you also steered well clear of addressing my point that you wouldn't have these complaints about my opinions if they were more positive. A little too much truth in that for you?
No. Its such an obvious point it doesn't need addressing. I would be as scornful of anyone claiming they are amazing. I've read plenty of leaked movie scripts that have sometimes been alot worse than the finished product and alot better. That's why its better to wait for the finished product before passing judgment.
Not only that but you're already writing off the entire series which is I am afraid ludicrous. That cannot be done until the dust has settled on the final episode and it can be looked at as a body of work. But we have had this discussion before and aren't going to agree. So its broken record time yet again on this forum.
I do however appreciate the fact you engage in a discussion rather than ignoring posts and questions altogether which is a common problem among some on here when they realize they have nothing to respond with.
my only concern there is that the vast majority of the standalone eps in recent series have been complete dogshit. And I happen to know that at least five episodes of the next thirteen are mediocre at best, so I'm not brimming with confidence for the rest.
Good job there's no spurious illogical reasoning going on here then...
No. Its such an obvious point it doesn't need addressing. I would be as scornful of anyone claiming they are amazing. I've read plenty of leaked movie scripts that have sometimes been alot worse than the finished product and alot better. That's why its better to wait for the finished product before passing judgment.
I believe we've also been through this particular bit before though. There is nothing changing from script to screen in this instance, they represent the finished product absolutely.
Not only that but you're already writing off the entire series which is I am afraid ludicrous. That cannot be done until the dust has settled on the final episode and it can be looked at as a body of work.
I wouldn't say I'm explicitly writing it off, but I do look at the past couple of series along with these leaked stories and can see the quality is on the same level, and therefore conclude it is reasonable to expect that level to remain steady. Is it possible there will suddenly be a massive upswing and the show will blow me away with the subsequent seven episodes? Yes. Is it likely? Again, going on the overall recent history of the show and its writing...no.
I would've imagined anyone with even the vaguest idea of what they are talking about (IE the ones worth listening to) would suggest you cannot judge the final episodes quality based on script alone.
Absolutely, the ultimate creative vision will embrace all those grace notes, the directorial flourishes, the pacing of a line delivery, the underpinning of a scene with music and lighting, that make the body of the episode what it is and which cannot be judged from just the printed word, but the script is the skeleton and if Tony Tiger's opinion is that the episode is poor that is a perfectly valid call to make if he has actually read the script and I really don't see why it is an issue for him to express that.
Absolutely, the ultimate creative vision will embrace all those grace notes, the directorial flourishes, the pacing of a line delivery, the underpinning of a scene with music and lighting, that make the body of the episode what it is and which cannot be judged from just the printed word, but the script is the skeleton and if Tony Tiger's opinion is that the episode is poor that is a perfectly valid call to make if he has actually read the script and I really don't see why it is an issue for him to express that.
Of course. An opinion on the script and the storyline can be formed. But especially in a show like DW there is alot that happens between page and screen which can make or break an episode. Not saying it will happen but it has and does. Something which reads rather flat in writing can be turned into magic. Star Wars is one obvious example- even the people making it thought the script was ropey hence Harrison Fords classic quote- but there are many others. This isn't kitchen sink theatre. Its science fiction and fantasy.
But that aside I just don't think you can judge the changes and ultimate quality of S8 based on what's been leaked so far. Yes episode one has leaked in full so you can perhaps get an impression of Capaldi but its the debut. Look at how Tennant grew and owned the part between New Earth and Doomsday. It was a massive step up. Until we see the episodes they are just words on a page. Its the way they're spoken and directed that matters.
This whole debate started because some people asserted that the production team have overstated the changes made. I just don't think we can say one way or another.
This whole debate started because some people asserted that the production team have overstated the changes made. I just don't think we can say one way or another.
I agree
Are we there yet, are we there yet, are we there yet, dad, are we there yet......:)
I bet all of those 4th Doctor scripts are wonderfully witty and amusing to read without Tom Baker saying the words... it's a shame that he, all of the rest of the cast, the producers, the directors, the FX guys, the stunt men, the costumiers, the set-makers didn't contribute anything at all to Doctor Who and had nothing at all to do with its success. No, the only important thing is the script of course. It does make me wonder why they bother to film the bloody things at all...
Comments
Oh lighten up.
Personally I love Doctor Who. Its greaaaaaaaaaaaaaat! Its just some of the people who watch it that spoil it.
I think its more your oft repeated and quite tedious pronouncements on the quality of S8 based on a few leaked scripts. Most people would agree you lack the necessary insight to form a valuable opinion but this doesn't seem to stop you uttering it at every opportunity. No one cares. You're not the only one who has read the leaks. But you do seem to be the only one writing off an entire series because of it.
It's gonna taste great.
**
Hey, the Doctor Who Annual uses some clockwork/cogs/gears for it's art, too. Looks like something is leaking in to the brand...
Oh wait, no, silly me--all that's needed is the scripts. Which I happen to have, so my opinion is completely valid. Something tells me if I were brimming with praise you wouldn't be making an issue out of it.
Oh well. At least others will enjoy them. You can't please everybody.
Well the ignore button is there for you for any poster who becomes a particularly troublesome bat up your nightdress, but personally I feel happier reading freely expressed comments from posters even if i disagree with them than i do reading posts (BIB) which try to sit on them by quoting some unfounded group-thought opinion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEgHaTgm4Hc
5 - Episodes 1-5. A rough cut of the first episode also leaked.
Unless you've discovered something new...
I would've imagined anyone with even the vaguest idea of what they are talking about (IE the ones worth listening to) would suggest you cannot judge the final episodes quality based on script alone.
Yes. If only everyone was awarded your precious gift of reasonable critical thinking and logical thought...
'most standalone episodes have been dogshit'.
Bravo.
Spot on.
I notice you also steered well clear of addressing my point that you wouldn't have these complaints about my opinions if they were more positive. A little too much truth in that for you?
Abandoning thread until after air / an on-topic policy is introduced.
Absolutely.
A good director and good actors can most certainly make a poor script far better on screen than in the reading (the Merlin cast and crew were brilliant at that particular trick!). Conversely a good script can be ruined by rubbish direction. You're absolutely right though that the script does allow you to judge the story and the way that narrative unfolds and you'll never get something brilliant if the script is so-so.
Personally I think the scripts are average - not outstanding, not terrible - but Peter and Jenna are both very good and will make the best of them. I'm still not expecting much change though apart from a more grumpy/less instantly likeable lead and am definitely of the opinion this series should have been Moffat's last. It just needs a completely fresh pov now.
No. Its such an obvious point it doesn't need addressing. I would be as scornful of anyone claiming they are amazing. I've read plenty of leaked movie scripts that have sometimes been alot worse than the finished product and alot better. That's why its better to wait for the finished product before passing judgment.
Not only that but you're already writing off the entire series which is I am afraid ludicrous. That cannot be done until the dust has settled on the final episode and it can be looked at as a body of work. But we have had this discussion before and aren't going to agree. So its broken record time yet again on this forum.
I do however appreciate the fact you engage in a discussion rather than ignoring posts and questions altogether which is a common problem among some on here when they realize they have nothing to respond with.
Good job there's no spurious illogical reasoning going on here then...
I wouldn't say I'm explicitly writing it off, but I do look at the past couple of series along with these leaked stories and can see the quality is on the same level, and therefore conclude it is reasonable to expect that level to remain steady. Is it possible there will suddenly be a massive upswing and the show will blow me away with the subsequent seven episodes? Yes. Is it likely? Again, going on the overall recent history of the show and its writing...no.
No there's not. Just my opinion. And not a particularly uncommon one at that.
Absolutely, the ultimate creative vision will embrace all those grace notes, the directorial flourishes, the pacing of a line delivery, the underpinning of a scene with music and lighting, that make the body of the episode what it is and which cannot be judged from just the printed word, but the script is the skeleton and if Tony Tiger's opinion is that the episode is poor that is a perfectly valid call to make if he has actually read the script and I really don't see why it is an issue for him to express that.
Of course. An opinion on the script and the storyline can be formed. But especially in a show like DW there is alot that happens between page and screen which can make or break an episode. Not saying it will happen but it has and does. Something which reads rather flat in writing can be turned into magic. Star Wars is one obvious example- even the people making it thought the script was ropey hence Harrison Fords classic quote- but there are many others. This isn't kitchen sink theatre. Its science fiction and fantasy.
But that aside I just don't think you can judge the changes and ultimate quality of S8 based on what's been leaked so far. Yes episode one has leaked in full so you can perhaps get an impression of Capaldi but its the debut. Look at how Tennant grew and owned the part between New Earth and Doomsday. It was a massive step up. Until we see the episodes they are just words on a page. Its the way they're spoken and directed that matters.
This whole debate started because some people asserted that the production team have overstated the changes made. I just don't think we can say one way or another.
I agree
Are we there yet, are we there yet, are we there yet, dad, are we there yet......:)