Caitlyn Jenner - AKA Bruce Jenner!

13567

Comments

  • tellywatcher73tellywatcher73 Posts: 4,181
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    cas1977 wrote: »
    I think it's all very well and good, a lot of posters on here are cheering for this person,saying how proud he should be and how beautiful he now looks as a woman. At the end of the day, I doubt anyone will be involved in this persons life, so it doesn't matter what anyone thinks really, but I'll be interested to know, if a group of women were sat around the table all talking about the usual stuff along with a few drinks, and a transgender woman was sat there as well, who only 6 months ago used to be a man.

    Is there noone on here that is going to admit to feeling a bit odd about this? And would you speak to them in exactly the same way, or would the fact that they used to be a man enter your head at all....

    I have no experience of this, don't know anyone who's gone from a man to a woman and vice versa, and the fact is, it is well beyond me and I just don't understand it.

    I have no personal experience, but I think it would be fair to say that there would be a period of adjustment for all involved. The thing I don't really like about this is people comparing her to her ex-wife. I'm not saying her ex-wife is a lovely lady, I obviously don't know her but there have been a lot of very cruel comments on the internet and I think it somewhat takes away from what, presumably, Caitlyn Jenner was trying to do by revealing her new look so publicly. On social media, it has turned into a joke.
  • CFCJM1CFCJM1 Posts: 2,065
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    cas1977 wrote: »
    I think it's all very well and good, a lot of posters on here are cheering for this person,saying how proud he should be and how beautiful he now looks as a woman. At the end of the day, I doubt anyone will be involved in this persons life, so it doesn't matter what anyone thinks really, but I'll be interested to know, if a group of women were sat around the table all talking about the usual stuff along with a few drinks, and a transgender woman was sat there as well, who only 6 months ago used to be a man.

    Is there noone on here that is going to admit to feeling a bit odd about this? And would you speak to them in exactly the same way, or would the fact that they used to be a man enter your head at all....

    I have no experience of this, don't know anyone who's gone from a man to a woman and vice versa, and the fact is, it is well beyond me and I just don't understand it.

    If I had known the woman for a while as a man - then it would probably take me a while to get used to the change and I would be honest with them and say that I need to get used to the different person I am now seeing before me.
  • Super_FurrySuper_Furry Posts: 774
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    No idea who she/he is, but the names are all over my social media.
  • Mrs ChecksMrs Checks Posts: 8,363
    Forum Member
    To any negative comments, you should all be very thankful your not trans.

    I am. Semi-closeted. It a living hell.

    When they say 'I'm trapped In the wrong body'. that's not a metaphor. My body feels alien to me, I find certain aspects, like needing a shave, give me a severe depression.

    If catalin's happy, god bless. I hope I can be as happy In the future...

    I am so sorry to read about your struggles. I genuinely hope you can find a way to be truly happy, I can't imagine the burden you must feel.
  • Mrs ChecksMrs Checks Posts: 8,363
    Forum Member
    cas1977 wrote: »
    I think it's all very well and good, a lot of posters on here are cheering for this person,saying how proud he should be and how beautiful he now looks as a woman. At the end of the day, I doubt anyone will be involved in this persons life, so it doesn't matter what anyone thinks really, but I'll be interested to know, if a group of women were sat around the table all talking about the usual stuff along with a few drinks, and a transgender woman was sat there as well, who only 6 months ago used to be a man.

    Is there noone on here that is going to admit to feeling a bit odd about this? And would you speak to them in exactly the same way, or would the fact that they used to be a man enter your head at all....

    I have no experience of this, don't know anyone who's gone from a man to a woman and vice versa, and the fact is, it is well beyond me and I just don't understand it.

    Surely it's down to respect?

    I'm sure if you had known someone as a man for a long time and they then transitioned to be a woman, it would be a bit of a thing to get your head around and adjust to. I don't think anyone would accuse someone of being prejudiced or rude or ignorant etc if they were internally confused about how to react to said person.

    However, if you went around outwardly questioning their choices, making social situations awkward for them, constantly reminding people they used to be a man, using inappropriate terms to describe them etc then that is totally disrespectful and rude, potentially bordering on ignorant and transphobic.

    I don't think anyone expects family and friends of trans people to immediately embrace their change and be totally cool with it (although more power to them if they do). But if that trans person is a friend or loved one, surely they mean enough to you that you would treat them with respect, compassion and support no matter what you feel inside?
  • viva.espanaviva.espana Posts: 8,500
    Forum Member
    Hogeyz wrote: »
    I think that's a little harsh, I don't think the poster has insulted transgender people but raised a valid question.

    The attempted suicide/ suicide rates among transgender (pre and post op) are frightening, in the general population suicide rates are between 1 - 2 % amongst transgender to jumps to nearly 40%

    And there is a lot of respected psychiatrists that see it as a form of body dismorphic disorder:

    Now I don't have any problem with sex changes at all, if changing your gender makes you happy then I'm all for it. But the suicide rates of post-op transgender people suggests there may be something more psychological beneath it all.

    And if the surgery ultimately doesn't help people accept themselves, surely looking at the psycho-social aspect is just as important as physically altering yourself. When 40%(!) of a group of people are attempting suicide, it's horrific and needs to be looked at.

    Do you not think that those suicide rates might be generated by how incredibly difficult the transgender process is for so many people? Those links you've provided refer, in the main, to the many and varied and extremely expensive costs involved along the way which are out of reach for so many people. Imagine how that must feel? Depressing and then some, I'd say. Add to that a lack of support, fear of rejection, ridicule, general all-round ignorance about what it's like to be living in the wrong body, and it's really not hard to see why suicide rates might be high among transgendered people.

    To reduce their reality to a form of body dismorphic disorder is insulting and depressing and yet another reason why suicide rates might be on the up.
  • day dreamerday dreamer Posts: 978
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    So much ignorance on these boards about transgender/transexual people. It's sad to be seeing some of these attitudes when you think people would have evolved to be more open minded than this in 2015.
  • Fairyprincess0Fairyprincess0 Posts: 30,038
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    Hogeyz wrote: »
    I think that's a little harsh, I don't think the poster has insulted transgender people but raised a valid question.

    The attempted suicide/ suicide rates among transgender (pre and post op) are frightening, in the general population suicide rates are between 1 - 2 % amongst transgender to jumps to nearly 40%

    http://www.vocativ.com/culture/lgbt/transgender-suicide/

    And there is a lot of respected psychiatrists that see it as a form of body dismorphic disorder:

    http://www.wsj.com/articles/paul-mchugh-transgender-surgery-isnt-the-solution-1402615120

    Now I don't have any problem with sex changes at all, if changing your gender makes you happy then I'm all for it.

    But the suicide rates of post-op transgender people suggests there may be something more psychological beneath it all.

    And if the surgery ultimately doesn't help people accept themselves, surely looking at the psycho-social aspect is just as important as physically altering yourself.

    When 40%(!) of a group of people are attempting suicide, it's horrific and needs to be looked at.


    Sex-changes arent the cause of the high trans suicide rate. I can been the cure.

    Being trapped in the wrong body is incredibly depressing. It's awful. Especially if you have no chance of passing.

    Everyone here can lower the trans suicide rate. Be more open, more accepting, and don't treat us like freaks....
  • CFCJM1CFCJM1 Posts: 2,065
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    So much ignorance on these boards about transgender/transexual people. It's sad to be seeing some of these attitudes when you think people would have evolved to be more open minded than this in 2015.

    I agree there is a lot of ignorance generally about the huge struggles transgender/transexual people face on a daily basis but don't feel it is down to the fact that people are not opened minded. I like to think the majority of people are compassionate and respectful of others - but we are just so unlikely to meet anyone in our daily lives who is on this journey - that it is often hard to envisage and fully understand the whole process and challenges faced.

    I take my hat off to Caitlyn and Kelly for going public and being so very brave and informative.

    FairyPrincess - I wish you happiness in your future and hope you find some peace. Be assured - just by coming on here and being so honest - you have taught us a lot already.
  • haphashhaphash Posts: 21,448
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    Why are the newspapers constantly full of this awful attention seeking family? I'm sick to death of seeing them. If this man wants to change sex that's his choice and good luck to him but I really don't want to know about it.
  • viva.espanaviva.espana Posts: 8,500
    Forum Member
    Sex-changes arent the cause of the high trans suicide rate. I can been the cure.

    Being trapped in the wrong body is incredibly depressing. It's awful. Especially if you have no chance of passing.

    Everyone here can lower the trans suicide rate. Be more open, more accepting, and don't treat us like freaks....

    Preach it. :cool: And thank you for posting and putting the so-called 'respected experts' as quoted by other people on this thread, in their ignorant place.

    I wish you so much luck and hope your journey has a happy, fullfilled ending/beginning.
  • GoatyGoaty Posts: 7,776
    Forum Member
    Sorry if I sound daft, but it does looks like Bruce was forced into became Caitlyn for the show as they ran out of stories to kept them in public?
  • Mrs ChecksMrs Checks Posts: 8,363
    Forum Member
    Goaty wrote: »
    Sorry if I sound daft, but it does looks like Bruce was forced into became Caitlyn for the show as they ran out of stories to kept them in public?

    :o:o:o

    That would be an incredibly extreme way of getting storylines, not to mention an incredibly dangerous game to play for everyone involved AND the viewers! Imagine the backlash?

    No way.

    There's a million break-ups, fall-outs, pregnancy scares etc they could have trotted out before they FORCED someone into changing their gender for storylines!

    I dislike the Kardashians intently but that suggestion is absolutely bonkers (and potentially offensive). Sorry.
  • Suzy_CatSuzy_Cat Posts: 1,368
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    cas1977 wrote: »
    I think it's all very well and good, a lot of posters on here are cheering for this person,saying how proud he should be and how beautiful he now looks as a woman. At the end of the day, I doubt anyone will be involved in this persons life, so it doesn't matter what anyone thinks really, but I'll be interested to know, if a group of women were sat around the table all talking about the usual stuff along with a few drinks, and a transgender woman was sat there as well, who only 6 months ago used to be a man.

    Is there noone on here that is going to admit to feeling a bit odd about this? And would you speak to them in exactly the same way, or would the fact that they used to be a man enter your head at all....

    I have no experience of this, don't know anyone who's gone from a man to a woman and vice versa, and the fact is, it is well beyond me and I just don't understand it.

    Initially you make a point of calling them she or he and using their new name out of respect. Eventually you start to forget that it feels a bit weird and you just think of them as who they are.

    If it's a person you already know, well, you know them. You treat them just the same, but make sure that you use their preferred name and pronoun and don't make comments about their genitalia, correct toilet etc, unless they've given you a lead to do so. In general that's not something you discuss with friends right, so unless it's a very teasing friendship and the trans person is leading the charge, don't go there. And just be careful even if you do.

    If you didn't know them before, well you treat them like any new acquaintance. If they say they are a woman/man, they are a woman/man. They might look a bit strange but so do lots of people. (Fun fact: I met a woman I assumed was a transwoman due to her height, body type etc. She's not, she's cisgendered and has given birth.) What "real" women even look like is pretty broad. Some of us are pretty and some of us are not. Some of us are tall and some of us are short. Some fat, some thin. Some a conventionally "feminine" shape, some not.

    I'm a cisgendered woman and I now have hair growing from my chin which I remove. Most of us have hair on our top lips which we bleach or remove. That doesn't make us men. I have a deepish voice and I am fairly tall. Neither of those things makes me a man.

    ETA there are also trans people who don't conform to a strict gender binary, like Richard O'Brien for instance who identifies as mostly but not completely male. He's been taking oestrogen for about a decade, and by the way he describes it, for him that's like it is for me taking certain kinds of antidepressant. It just makes life feel more normal and more right. I think we need more recognition of the fact that many people do not fit into one thing or the other, and that should be OK. In many non-western cultures the concept of a third gender is pretty entrenched.
  • JasonJason Posts: 76,557
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    Goaty wrote: »
    Sorry if I sound daft, but it does looks like Bruce was forced into became Caitlyn for the show as they ran out of stories to kept them in public?

    Possibly one of the stupidest things i've ever read, anywhere. ever. or ever will read.
  • day dreamerday dreamer Posts: 978
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    Possibly one of the stupidest things i've ever read, anywhere. ever. or ever will read.

    It's unbelievable that someone would even think that let alone post it! :o
  • DaveNightingaleDaveNightingale Posts: 233
    Forum Member
    I cannot believe some of the comments on here. Not only do they border on the transphobic, they show a tremendous ignorance, lack of understanding, and non-willingness of acceptance.

    For every Caitlyn Jenner, there is a Kellie Maloney, a Stephanie Hirst, but also a whole set of people in every day life, who have made the change. If you are in the public eye it may be easier, but you must not forget that these people have had to spend years effectively living their life as someone they know they are not.

    For others, it is not so simple.

    And before you ask, I am a 41 year old heterosexual man. I am not TG, but what I have done, is learned the reality of what it is like to be from someone who is a close friend and inspiration, and learning that it is not a fad, a disease, or something that is "strange".
    Gender Dysphoria is here, it is happening, and the more accepting we become of it, then we might just start to grow up.

    After all... It is 2015 - not 1950.

    Its just over a year, since my friend of over 15 years decided to walk away from the job and career they loved, to start their road to change. It takes a brave person to take that step, an even braver one to tell their friends, but even more, to go public. I am proud that before they went public, they shared their secret with me, and what is more, that I did what every good friend should do - told them I'd be there for them.

    Now, 12 months later, the person they should have been 38 years ago, is here. They have got their life back, their mojo, and in their words "after watching the world in black & white, the colour is here".

    I read the comments of Fairy Princess, and I feel for her. To be trapped inside, to know that instincively that you want to be the real you, but are unsure of taking the leap of faith because of the backlash you anticipate. From me to you, there are people who do understand, and we're behind you in our support. I hope that one day, you can start your journey, and get to be the person you always want to be.

    Now maybe if we all learned to be like this, and showed our support, then may be we might just be able to grow up a little.
  • fizzle90fizzle90 Posts: 6,467
    Forum Member
    I cannot believe some of the comments on here. Not only do they border on the transphobic, they show a tremendous ignorance, lack of understanding, and non-willingness of acceptance.

    For every Caitlyn Jenner, there is a Kellie Maloney, a Stephanie Hirst, but also a whole set of people in every day life, who have made the change. If you are in the public eye it may be easier, but you must not forget that these people have had to spend years effectively living their life as someone they know they are not.

    For others, it is not so simple.

    And before you ask, I am a 41 year old heterosexual man. I am not TG, but what I have done, is learned the reality of what it is like to be from someone who is a close friend and inspiration, and learning that it is not a fad, a disease, or something that is "strange".
    Gender Dysphoria is here, it is happening, and the more accepting we become of it, then we might just start to grow up.

    After all... It is 2015 - not 1950.

    Its just over a year, since my friend of over 15 years decided to walk away from the job and career they loved, to start their road to change. It takes a brave person to take that step, an even braver one to tell their friends, but even more, to go public. I am proud that before they went public, they shared their secret with me, and what is more, that I did what every good friend should do - told them I'd be there for them.

    Now, 12 months later, the person they should have been 38 years ago, is here. They have got their life back, their mojo, and in their words "after watching the world in black & white, the colour is here".

    I read the comments of Fairy Princess, and I feel for her. To be trapped inside, to know that instincively that you want to be the real you, but are unsure of taking the leap of faith because of the backlash you anticipate. From me to you, there are people who do understand, and we're behind you in our support. I hope that one day, you can start your journey, and get to be the person you always want to be.

    Now maybe if we all learned to be like this, and showed our support, then may be we might just be able to grow up a little.


    Excellent post. Completely agree with it all.
  • IJoinedInMayIJoinedInMay Posts: 26,317
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    I cannot believe some of the comments on here. Not only do they border on the transphobic, they show a tremendous ignorance, lack of understanding, and non-willingness of acceptance.

    For every Caitlyn Jenner, there is a Kellie Maloney, a Stephanie Hirst, but also a whole set of people in every day life, who have made the change. If you are in the public eye it may be easier, but you must not forget that these people have had to spend years effectively living their life as someone they know they are not.

    For others, it is not so simple.

    And before you ask, I am a 41 year old heterosexual man. I am not TG, but what I have done, is learned the reality of what it is like to be from someone who is a close friend and inspiration, and learning that it is not a fad, a disease, or something that is "strange".
    Gender Dysphoria is here, it is happening, and the more accepting we become of it, then we might just start to grow up.

    After all... It is 2015 - not 1950.

    Its just over a year, since my friend of over 15 years decided to walk away from the job and career they loved, to start their road to change. It takes a brave person to take that step, an even braver one to tell their friends, but even more, to go public. I am proud that before they went public, they shared their secret with me, and what is more, that I did what every good friend should do - told them I'd be there for them.

    Now, 12 months later, the person they should have been 38 years ago, is here. They have got their life back, their mojo, and in their words "after watching the world in black & white, the colour is here".

    I read the comments of Fairy Princess, and I feel for her. To be trapped inside, to know that instincively that you want to be the real you, but are unsure of taking the leap of faith because of the backlash you anticipate. From me to you, there are people who do understand, and we're behind you in our support. I hope that one day, you can start your journey, and get to be the person you always want to be.

    Now maybe if we all learned to be like this, and showed our support, then may be we might just be able to grow up a little.

    "Growing up a little" doesn't mean badgering people to ascribe to your views by labelling (yes, labels. One of the words most hated by the LGBT community) those who disagree with you in any way as "ignorant" or "phobic".

    If you want to dress in the clothes of the gender opposite to the one you were born as, or even change your existing body to resemble that of the opposite gender, fine. I'm not scared of that, I'm not ignorant that some people consider and do go through with such choices. However I do believe that there are mental health issues driving such choices. That is my opinion but my opinion won't stop those people from making those choices. In that event, if they're not expected to change the way they want to live their life, why should I change mine in the form of my beliefs in order to "grow up"? How is that tolerant towards me? I'm not claiming to be suffering oppression on the same scale as black people or gay people used to face decades ago but I do find it hypocritical that you admonish people for a lack of acceptance by not accepting that people have different views.
  • shelleyj89shelleyj89 Posts: 16,292
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    Goaty wrote: »
    Sorry if I sound daft, but it does looks like Bruce was forced into became Caitlyn for the show as they ran out of stories to kept them in public?

    Holy cow.
  • Get Den WattsGet Den Watts Posts: 6,039
    Forum Member
    haphash wrote: »
    Why are the newspapers constantly full of this awful attention seeking family? I'm sick to death of seeing them. If this man wants to change sex that's his choice and good luck to him but I really don't want to know about it.

    It's hooray for diversity and all that sort of stuff. ;-)
  • boksboxboksbox Posts: 4,572
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    Bruce Jenner has transformed into a woman. New name and is on the cover of Vanify Fair!

    http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2015/06/caitlyn-jenner-bruce-cover-annie-leibovitz :eek:

    You need to change the thread title she has only one ID aka doesn't apply.
  • cas1977cas1977 Posts: 6,399
    Forum Member
    So much ignorance on these boards about transgender/transexual people. It's sad to be seeing some of these attitudes when you think people would have evolved to be more open minded than this in 2015.
    I'm surprised you put that really. Not sure what context you're talking about peoples ignorance. Meaning, are you saying it in a rude way, or meaning that in general people don't have any knowledge of this?

    To be honest, I think it's quite accurate to imagine that there aren't many people who are going to have advanced knowledge about the subject of transgender.

    If I live to be 95, how many transgender people am I going to have in my inner circle? My guess would be zero, or possibly one if that. And by saying that, I'm being generous!

    So my question to you, why do you feel that in the year of 2015, people should be clued up on this? And why?
  • cas1977cas1977 Posts: 6,399
    Forum Member
    Mrs Checks wrote: »
    Surely it's down to respect?

    I'm sure if you had known someone as a man for a long time and they then transitioned to be a woman, it would be a bit of a thing to get your head around and adjust to. I don't think anyone would accuse someone of being prejudiced or rude or ignorant etc if they were internally confused about how to react to said person.

    However, if you went around outwardly questioning their choices, making social situations awkward for them, constantly reminding people they used to be a man, using inappropriate terms to describe them etc then that is totally disrespectful and rude, potentially bordering on ignorant and transphobic.

    I don't think anyone expects family and friends of trans people to immediately embrace their change and be totally cool with it (although more power to them if they do). But if that trans person is a friend or loved one, surely they mean enough to you that you would treat them with respect, compassion and support no matter what you feel inside?
    It would go without saying, that whatever I thought of something, or whatever my opinión was, I would never treat someone like that in a rude way. If I thought negative things about them, I'd generally just keep them to myself.

    It depends on how "successful" the sex change was though. I mean, if it is quite obviously a man that is wanting to look like a woman, say it was a colleague, and I'd known them for a long while as a man - to be honest with you, I'm not sure if I wouldn't always see the man they used to be.

    I'm talking now without any experience of this at all, and maybe in reality, I'd act differently, I have no idea. Although I think, if it were to be a brother or a sister of mine, I think I'd find it impossible. To me, it'd be like one of my siblings has died.

    Actually I'd prefer not to think about that! I'm just glad that I won't have to experience that in my family.
  • Suzy_CatSuzy_Cat Posts: 1,368
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    cas1977 wrote: »
    It would go without saying, that whatever I thought of something, or whatever my opinión was, I would never treat someone like that in a rude way. If I thought negative things about them, I'd generally just keep them to myself.

    It depends on how "successful" the sex change was though. I mean, if it is quite obviously a man that is wanting to look like a woman, say it was a colleague, and I'd known them for a long while as a man - to be honest with you, I'm not sure if I wouldn't always see the man they used to be.

    I know someone who for various reasons doesn't pass and never will, and I don't think of them as a man in a dress and wig even though that's pretty much what they look like. Of course when I first encountered them that's what I saw. But I just accept them as a woman, albeit not very conventional in looks. It would be hardest I think if you had a very intimate relationship with them without knowing of their identity, and then they transitioned. But on the other hand a transition doesn't happen overnight, so you'd have a bit of time to get used to it. .
Sign In or Register to comment.