I think the main problem is that it has been turned into a Gay Rights issue when its not one, Plenty of couples a.) Aren't in Relationships and b.) Dance same sex out of necesscity- Male/Male Ballroom Dancing (at least on the University Circuit) are very rare in open competition as they are signifigantly outnumbered by girls and as such Female Couples are fairly normal (and can do very well) so I see no reason why it can't be trialled on Strictly at all and I would prefer someone like Ben Cohen who isn't against the idea but straight rather than turn it into a sexuality issue as two people of the same sex acting and dancing together- Play it as a Camp as Christmas Male/Male thing and it would be a disaster and do same sex dancing no favours imo
I don't think you could have two fully grown men dancing the rumba on primetime Saturday teatime television without it turning into a sexuality issue, regardless of whether the participants were gay, straight, bisexual, pansexual, asexual, omnomisexual or even if they'd both tragically lost their genitals in a horrific combine harvester accident. Even Ben Cohen specifically requested Robin as a partner and was angling to make his dancing with him a gay rights issue (which, fair play, is pretty much his job these days).
I just think if straight people dance together in the real world of ballroom dancing primarily out of necessity it'd be even more forced and gimmicky to have them pair up in competition when there's obviously no necessity than to have two gay people or a gay and a straight person do it. If they want to showcase straight people dancing together in same-sex couples (you know, for people who want to watch that sort of thing) then it should probably just be an exhibition dance. There's probably an awful pro dance centring around Patrick Grant leaping naked out of a giant sewing machine they could cancel.
I don't normally pass this way out of season, so to speak. But by chance I have stumbled on this thread and for good or ill thought I would throw a little story in to assist or confound the debate.
It relates to social dancing not competitive. A few years ago a gay friend who is very active in the LGBT world asked me to help her promote a new same sex dance enterprise. The idea was to hold same sex dance classes in Latin American styles and parties for social free dancing too.
I was happy to help and used my own networks to promote the initiative. Apart from the more general promotion I also personally contacted all my gay friends some of whom are already very active social dancers.
The enterprise failed to take off. They had a good venue, had financial support, had a good teacher and good DJ. They also put out a lot of marketing material. In fact the inputs were well above those of most social dance enterprises that have been successful. Yet this did not attract participants.
I don't know exactly why it failed. But what I thought was instructive was my own experience when I contacted my gay friends. Every one of them responded with versions of the same reply "Why would I want to dance with someone of the same sex?" OR "When I dance I prefer to dance with a woman thanks". They actually seemed to find the idea quite weird.
The first thing that was surprising to me was that I knew a lot of gay people and apart from 2 all were men. This was something I hadn't overtly noticed before. The second was that apart from the two women (who were the two that set this thing up) they all felt that the existing dance scene more than adequately catered for their needs and hadn't up tot hat point seen the existing scene as heterosexual.
I am not sure what inferences to draw from that.(other than, although social dancing does appear to be about ..well let's call it courtship.. and it sort of does. At the same time it really doesn't, if that makes sense) Anyway thought I would throw it in to confuse the picture before buggering off hit and run style.
If same sex couples are banned from the main events (the ones with the most kudos) having not been so before then that is clearly discrimination and against the law.
Supporters of the ban can dissimulate all they want but it won't deflect from what is really occurring here. Fair minded people can see the wood for the trees.
I'd appreciate it if you could provide me with a link to 'evidence' that demonstrates that it is same sex couples who are calling for a ban.
People used to say the same thing about non-whites 'being happy with their own competitions', too.
Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
I don't think I said same sex couples are actually calling for a ban. Most of same sex couples I've spoken to say they are happier with their own comps, and don't want to be integrated. And nor are same sex comps ever thought of as being in anyway inferior or having less kudos.
There's another way of looking at all this : if same sex couples can enter all other open comps, then it is only right that mixed sex couples be granted the right to enter same sex events - and how's that meant to work? Mixed couples are hardly eligible to enter same sex comps for obvious reasons, so doesn't this promote 'discrimination'?
I don't think I said same sex couples are actually calling for a ban. Most of same sex couples I've spoken to say they are happier with their own comps, and don't want to be integrated. And nor are same sex comps ever thought of as being in anyway inferior or having less kudos.
There's another way of looking at all this : if same sex couples can enter all other open comps, then it is only right that mixed sex couples be granted the right to enter same sex events - and how's that meant to work? Mixed couples are hardly eligible to enter same sex comps for obvious reasons, so doesn't this promote 'discrimination'?
That would be fine if the main competitions - the ones with all the kudos - were kept open as they are now. This would then allow any combination of genders to have their own competitions outside the main events if they so desired.
Discrimination occurs when a group of people seek to exclude another group who were not previously excluded.
Regardless of how supporters of the proposal to exclude same sex couples from competing in key competitions wheel in 'gay friends' to agree with their point of view it is still discrimination and against the law of this country in 2014
That would be fine if the main competitions - the ones with all the kudos - were kept open as they are now. This would then allow any combination of genders to have their own competitions outside the main events if they so desired.
Discrimination occurs when a group of people seek to exclude another group who were not previously excluded.
Regardless of how supporters of the proposal to exclude same sex couples from competing in key competitions wheel in 'gay friends' to agree with their point of view it is still discrimination and against the law of this country in 2014
Personally I'm quite happy to leave things as they are. The sheer number of same-sex couples taking part in what you call main competitions is so small it hardly matters.
However, if we go down the discrimination line, then, as said before, you would have to allow mixed-sex couples to compete in the same-sex competitions. I'd be interested to know how you would make that work? And there are plenty of competitions that "segragate" (for want of a better word) competitors, players, etc., on a matter of sex alone. Is that discrimination?
Same-sex competitions are huge worldwide, including European & World Championships. I think they would be insulted to have it suggested that those competitions carry less 'kudos' than other 'main' competitions.
As a matter of interest, same-sex couples are not necessarily gay.
Could liven the show up a bit! and it's probably the best that i've ever seen James dance.
OMG!! That was BRILLIANT! :cool: Can't believe I didn't remember that!
Though under Dance rules, James, as the taller dancer, should've lead....but he was dancing Kara's choreo, and astonishingly well too! So much more expressive when he 'effeminized' his movements rather than being a macho tree trunk. Go James! :cool:
i have no problem with same sex cpls dancing and until robin done his back in, i was really hoping that he and marcus would be our first same sex cpl
the thing is tho - would the BBC risk it, strictly does have a lot of older viewers and whether we like it or not, whether it is right or wrong, some older ppl still have a hard time accepting homosexuality and a same sex cpl could offend them
like i say, whether it is right or wrong, for a lot of older viewers, homosexuality was illegal for a lot of their lives, it's not homophobia, it's what they grew up being told
All for it. Don't have a problem with it. May be difficult for the male to be lead I would imagine but other than that. Think it would have been unfair if Marcus had been partnered by robin as I would think that would give him an unfair advantage.
I think maybe they could do a one off special to test the waters and get people used to it, perhaps for charity or gay pride and then go from there.
Children in Need - a comp between 3 or 4 couples - could be interesting. But would you have all guys or all women? In same-sex comps they would be separate events.
Personally I'm quite happy to leave things as they are. The sheer number of same-sex couples taking part in what you call main competitions is so small it hardly matters.
However, if we go down the discrimination line, then, as said before, you would have to allow mixed-sex couples to compete in the same-sex competitions. I'd be interested to know how you would make that work? And there are plenty of competitions that "segragate" (for want of a better word) competitors, players, etc., on a matter of sex alone. Is that discrimination?
Same-sex competitions are huge worldwide, including European & World Championships. I think they would be insulted to have it suggested that those competitions carry less 'kudos' than other 'main' competitions.
As a matter of interest, same-sex couples are not necessarily gay.
No one said anything about same sex dancing couples necessarily being gay.
If competitions are set up with clearly defined boundaries and legal reasons for having them then it isn't discrimination. A bowls competition for the over 70s is perfectly entitled to refuse an 18 year-old admission. This isn't rocket science - it's just common sense. Tennis competitions have every combination possible. It's not difficult to arrange.
This is the last time I'm going to say this because I'm tired of repeating myself:
It becomes discrimination when someone who was not previously excluded is excluded because of a new rule carefully designed to exclude them. This means that all main competitions will need to remain 'open' to all couple combinations. Failure to do so will mean that such a competition is against the law.
You've still got a situation such as with the disabled athletes competing with prosthetics. If the ruling body proves that the prosthetics are providing a competitive advantage over other athletes then it should be able to prohibit them, even though it excludes the disabled athletes.
No one said anything about same sex dancing couples necessarily being gay.
If competitions are set up with clearly defined boundaries and legal reasons for having them then it isn't discrimination. A bowls competition for the over 70s is perfectly entitled to refuse an 18 year-old admission. This isn't rocket science - it's just common sense. Tennis competitions have every combination possible. It's not difficult to arrange.
This is the last time I'm going to say this because I'm tired of repeating myself:
It becomes discrimination when someone who was not previously excluded is excluded because of a new rule carefully designed to exclude them. This means that all main competitions will need to remain 'open' to all couple combinations. Failure to do so will mean that such a competition is against the law.
The point about ballroom competitions is that it was never a written rule because it NEVER happened. When competition rules were written, the idea of 2 guys dancing together, never mind competing, was unthinkable; not only would they have been disqualified, they quite likely would have been arrested. It would have been difficult to make a rule for something that hadn't even been thought of as possible. Life changes, and rules sometimes have to change with it.
There have always been all-girls, all-ladies events at medallist competitions, but this is largely because there were never enough boys/men to go around. A medallist class may have about 20 or more little girls, and about 2 or 3 little boys (sometimes none at all). Things were not necessarily any different in classes for adults, so it was/is only sensible to allow all-female couples to compete at medallist events, although these are usually as all-girls, all-ladies events, as opposed to dancing against mixed-gender couples. This isn't classed as discrimination, but simply to give all concerned a fairer competition.
When going to "Open" competitions, the accepted norm has always been for a man-woman partnership. Two ladies dancing together know and understand that if they entered an Open competition (other than some of the very small "Sunday" comps) they would not only be frowned upon, but probably ignored by the judges. People might think that's unfair, but that's how it is. Two men dancing together shouldn't complain if they are treated the same. At the moment it is only a very few guys who are trying to make a point - I was told, but have no proof to back it up - that it is no more than 6 couples Worldwide.
Just to make another point - there are no rules governing Social dances, of which there are hundreds. At all of these 2 females dancing together is, as always has been, perfectly accepted, and yet time and time again I have seen 2 guys dancing together being asked to leave. Now, that is discrimination...... I should add, I've never seen any turned away from a competitors practice session.
I have to agree with Holly Berry here. The potential new ruling would introduce the possibility that same sex dancers could be banned from those competitions that they can currently compete in, typically the British Open Dance Championships at Blackpool, which are considered to be THE competition to aim for. It doesn't really matter what the "accepted norm" is or how many couples are affected (admittedly, the exclusion of same sex competitors would be discretionary) . The fact is that couples are currently allowed to challenge that accepted norm but may not be able to in the future, and that is discrimination.
Since the number of same sex competitors is very low and they are not in the top couples, I do not understand why the establishment feel a need to change the status quo, because of this so call competitive advantage. This 'competitive advantage' doesn't seem to be causing any shake ups to the top level rankings.
Medallist competitions do not necessarily segregate at the moment. I have competed against same sex couples who have often (deservedly) done better. For me, it is more of an issue that in a singles competition I might be competing as a follower against other dancers being judged as leaders. That is a more difficult judgement to make than comparing me, a female follower, against a male follower
I have seen and competed against same sexed couples (men) on the open circuit. I have nothing against same sex couples, whether they be gay or straight, but in my opinion it just doesn't look right. The man, as the follower, is never going to look as soft or feminine, acting as a foil for the man.
No... I don't like the idea at all!, it doesn't look right!, and I think even the two men in the video were uncomfortable with it, as it was obvious they played it for laughs!......:(
No... I don't like the idea at all!, it doesn't look right!, and I think even the two men in the video were uncomfortable with it, as it was obvious they played it for laughs!......:(
I'm sure you are right. Two men in tailsuits - Ballroom - do not, in my opinion, create the right impression. Ballroom dancing has always been about, and no doubt created , a man dancing with a woman. There are also single sex ( male) couples on the Pro Latin circuit and again, from a visual point of view, just does not look right. They can dance technically very well, but a man is never ever going to have such a beautiful leg action that a woman can create, he will never have a sexual or sensual, fluid way of moving in Latin American.
I feel that as far as SCD is concerned, it is not a dance competition, it is classed as entertainment, so it would not surprise me if they had a single sex couple on there in the near future.The dance side of things does not seem to always matter too much.
I don't normally pass this way out of season, so to speak. But by chance I have stumbled on this thread and for good or ill thought I would throw a little story in to assist or confound the debate.
It relates to social dancing not competitive. A few years ago a gay friend who is very active in the LGBT world asked me to help her promote a new same sex dance enterprise. The idea was to hold same sex dance classes in Latin American styles and parties for social free dancing too.
I was happy to help and used my own networks to promote the initiative. Apart from the more general promotion I also personally contacted all my gay friends some of whom are already very active social dancers.
The enterprise failed to take off. They had a good venue, had financial support, had a good teacher and good DJ. They also put out a lot of marketing material. In fact the inputs were well above those of most social dance enterprises that have been successful. Yet this did not attract participants.
I don't know exactly why it failed. But what I thought was instructive was my own experience when I contacted my gay friends. Every one of them responded with versions of the same reply "Why would I want to dance with someone of the same sex?" OR "When I dance I prefer to dance with a woman thanks". They actually seemed to find the idea quite weird.
The first thing that was surprising to me was that I knew a lot of gay people and apart from 2 all were men. This was something I hadn't overtly noticed before. The second was that apart from the two women (who were the two that set this thing up) they all felt that the existing dance scene more than adequately catered for their needs and hadn't up tot hat point seen the existing scene as heterosexual.
I am not sure what inferences to draw from that.(other than, although social dancing does appear to be about ..well let's call it courtship.. and it sort of does. At the same time it really doesn't, if that makes sense) Anyway thought I would throw it in to confuse the picture before buggering off hit and run style.
See you all in September/October.
There is an active Queer Tango scene in London, Germany, Denmark, Netherlands, Italy, Sweden, the US, and elsewhere.
There have been numerous celebrities who have taken part in strictly over the years. Being from the LGBT community and none have been given the chance to perform with their sex.
We have Scott Mills this year, who may have liked to be given a male partner. Which would have helped for better chemistry when dancing, heterosexual celebrities benefit from this intimate chemistry.
Marcus Collins dancing with his boyfriend Robin, rumour seemed to have been buried in the sand too.
I know DWTS in the USA haven't implemented this either. Is this to do with the older audience of the Strictly/Ballroom dancing shows?
Is the audience behind with the times, to accept same sex couples?
Comments
I just think if straight people dance together in the real world of ballroom dancing primarily out of necessity it'd be even more forced and gimmicky to have them pair up in competition when there's obviously no necessity than to have two gay people or a gay and a straight person do it. If they want to showcase straight people dancing together in same-sex couples (you know, for people who want to watch that sort of thing) then it should probably just be an exhibition dance. There's probably an awful pro dance centring around Patrick Grant leaping naked out of a giant sewing machine they could cancel.
It relates to social dancing not competitive. A few years ago a gay friend who is very active in the LGBT world asked me to help her promote a new same sex dance enterprise. The idea was to hold same sex dance classes in Latin American styles and parties for social free dancing too.
I was happy to help and used my own networks to promote the initiative. Apart from the more general promotion I also personally contacted all my gay friends some of whom are already very active social dancers.
The enterprise failed to take off. They had a good venue, had financial support, had a good teacher and good DJ. They also put out a lot of marketing material. In fact the inputs were well above those of most social dance enterprises that have been successful. Yet this did not attract participants.
I don't know exactly why it failed. But what I thought was instructive was my own experience when I contacted my gay friends. Every one of them responded with versions of the same reply "Why would I want to dance with someone of the same sex?" OR "When I dance I prefer to dance with a woman thanks". They actually seemed to find the idea quite weird.
The first thing that was surprising to me was that I knew a lot of gay people and apart from 2 all were men. This was something I hadn't overtly noticed before. The second was that apart from the two women (who were the two that set this thing up) they all felt that the existing dance scene more than adequately catered for their needs and hadn't up tot hat point seen the existing scene as heterosexual.
I am not sure what inferences to draw from that.(other than, although social dancing does appear to be about ..well let's call it courtship.. and it sort of does. At the same time it really doesn't, if that makes sense) Anyway thought I would throw it in to confuse the picture before buggering off hit and run style.
See you all in September/October.
Have you seen Artem & James dancing the Rumba
Could liven the show up a bit! and it's probably the best that i've ever seen James dance.
OMG!! That was BRILLIANT! :cool:
Though under Dance rules, James, as the taller dancer, should've lead....but he was dancing Kara's choreo, and astonishingly well too! So much more expressive when he 'effeminized' his movements rather than being a macho tree trunk. Go James! :cool:
the thing is tho - would the BBC risk it, strictly does have a lot of older viewers and whether we like it or not, whether it is right or wrong, some older ppl still have a hard time accepting homosexuality and a same sex cpl could offend them
like i say, whether it is right or wrong, for a lot of older viewers, homosexuality was illegal for a lot of their lives, it's not homophobia, it's what they grew up being told
Children in Need - a comp between 3 or 4 couples - could be interesting. But would you have all guys or all women? In same-sex comps they would be separate events.
No one said anything about same sex dancing couples necessarily being gay.
If competitions are set up with clearly defined boundaries and legal reasons for having them then it isn't discrimination. A bowls competition for the over 70s is perfectly entitled to refuse an 18 year-old admission. This isn't rocket science - it's just common sense. Tennis competitions have every combination possible. It's not difficult to arrange.
This is the last time I'm going to say this because I'm tired of repeating myself:
It becomes discrimination when someone who was not previously excluded is excluded because of a new rule carefully designed to exclude them. This means that all main competitions will need to remain 'open' to all couple combinations. Failure to do so will mean that such a competition is against the law.
This isn't true. Nobody who ran any competition would be able to change the entry for anything. It would always be 'discrimination'.
Discrimination is about intent. Changing rules to make them function better is not discrimination.
This BBC news item provides an overview of both sides of the argument:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-28260949
The point about ballroom competitions is that it was never a written rule because it NEVER happened. When competition rules were written, the idea of 2 guys dancing together, never mind competing, was unthinkable; not only would they have been disqualified, they quite likely would have been arrested. It would have been difficult to make a rule for something that hadn't even been thought of as possible. Life changes, and rules sometimes have to change with it.
There have always been all-girls, all-ladies events at medallist competitions, but this is largely because there were never enough boys/men to go around. A medallist class may have about 20 or more little girls, and about 2 or 3 little boys (sometimes none at all). Things were not necessarily any different in classes for adults, so it was/is only sensible to allow all-female couples to compete at medallist events, although these are usually as all-girls, all-ladies events, as opposed to dancing against mixed-gender couples. This isn't classed as discrimination, but simply to give all concerned a fairer competition.
When going to "Open" competitions, the accepted norm has always been for a man-woman partnership. Two ladies dancing together know and understand that if they entered an Open competition (other than some of the very small "Sunday" comps) they would not only be frowned upon, but probably ignored by the judges. People might think that's unfair, but that's how it is. Two men dancing together shouldn't complain if they are treated the same. At the moment it is only a very few guys who are trying to make a point - I was told, but have no proof to back it up - that it is no more than 6 couples Worldwide.
Just to make another point - there are no rules governing Social dances, of which there are hundreds. At all of these 2 females dancing together is, as always has been, perfectly accepted, and yet time and time again I have seen 2 guys dancing together being asked to leave. Now, that is discrimination...... I should add, I've never seen any turned away from a competitors practice session.
Since the number of same sex competitors is very low and they are not in the top couples, I do not understand why the establishment feel a need to change the status quo, because of this so call competitive advantage. This 'competitive advantage' doesn't seem to be causing any shake ups to the top level rankings.
Medallist competitions do not necessarily segregate at the moment. I have competed against same sex couples who have often (deservedly) done better. For me, it is more of an issue that in a singles competition I might be competing as a follower against other dancers being judged as leaders. That is a more difficult judgement to make than comparing me, a female follower, against a male follower
I'm sure you are right. Two men in tailsuits - Ballroom - do not, in my opinion, create the right impression. Ballroom dancing has always been about, and no doubt created , a man dancing with a woman. There are also single sex ( male) couples on the Pro Latin circuit and again, from a visual point of view, just does not look right. They can dance technically very well, but a man is never ever going to have such a beautiful leg action that a woman can create, he will never have a sexual or sensual, fluid way of moving in Latin American.
I feel that as far as SCD is concerned, it is not a dance competition, it is classed as entertainment, so it would not surprise me if they had a single sex couple on there in the near future.The dance side of things does not seem to always matter too much.
There is an active Queer Tango scene in London, Germany, Denmark, Netherlands, Italy, Sweden, the US, and elsewhere.
http://youtu.be/zKcqdNoldVI
I have never been to one.
We have Scott Mills this year, who may have liked to be given a male partner. Which would have helped for better chemistry when dancing, heterosexual celebrities benefit from this intimate chemistry.
Marcus Collins dancing with his boyfriend Robin, rumour seemed to have been buried in the sand too.
I know DWTS in the USA haven't implemented this either. Is this to do with the older audience of the Strictly/Ballroom dancing shows?
Is the audience behind with the times, to accept same sex couples?
I'd like to hear your responses.