no one on here has excused his behavior by a long shot, theres a fair difference between disagreeing the BBC was trying to encourage sympathy for a paedo and actually excusing ones behavior
Indeed - the BBC are not presenting Bourg and saying he's an example of paedophiles any more than Ziane is an example of a Police Officer. Of course, he's also not the only paedophile in the programme either. I wonder whether Garret illicited any sympathy from viewers?
Well he has lost it i agree but he still has the intelligence to do a bit of detective work to have tracked that boy down.
The scene was brilliantly written and agree it's open to different interpretations. let just agree to disagree.:)
Don't get me wrong you do have reason to suspect, all last night me and my mum were of the opinion he was in Russia, like the concealed face behind the swing pole, the drawing, the arranged trafficking back in 2006 or whenever it was and the big fat fact we never saw the boys body. But i as a viewer need closure other wise ill end up like Tony myself, lurking round the BBC studio and the writers homes............:D
Like Baptiste said you either live with your doubts (the mum) or go mad (the dad) the writers are cleaver, they've made us choose, which are we? they said we'd have closure but we don't, or maybe we do depending on which we choose
and that is why the ending is so annoying for both parties even if you agree hes dead, my mind is still boggling
I guess you like your characters to be GOOD or EVIL without any shades of grey. People are complicated individuals, not one dimensional stereotypes.
What did you think of Tony killing someone and not being brought to justice for it?
...and are the BBC vindicating drunk drivers because Tony chose to keep Alain's secret? I think we have to approach intelligent debates with critical thinking and self-awareness.
Yes, I can see how it can be viewied that way. However, the way in whihc it was directly juxtaposed with Tony scribbling the same image on his notepad was a clear link to him, I felt.
IMHO the way the two images were juxtaposed actually served to highlight differences in them which make it plausible that the version drawn on the car window was Olly's work rather than Tony's. If you look at Tony's version, the ears don't look right, whereas the one on the car seemed to me to be a closer match to the versions we know to have been drawn by Olly.
Indeed - the BBC are not presenting Bourg and saying he's an example of paedophiles any more than Ziane is an example of a Police Officer. Of course, he's also not the only paedophile in the programme either. I wonder whether Garret illicited any sympathy from viewers?
Precisely - one may induce a more empathetic response because he outwardly appears not as bad as Garrett despite the fact they are one and the same
But that doesnt mean you sympathise with these sorts of people, Thats the human mind for you, veryyyyy complex
Indeed - the BBC are not presenting Bourg and saying he's an example of paedophiles any more than Ziane is an example of a Police Officer. Of course, he's also not the only paedophile in the programme either. I wonder whether Garret illicited any sympathy from viewers?
Exactly - it's a drama with flawed characters, not some sort of BBC propaganda!!
IMHO the way the two images were juxtaposed actually served to highlight differences in them which make it plausible that the version drawn on the car window was Olly's work rather than Tony's. If you look at Tony's version, the ears don't look right, whereas the one on the car seemed to me to be a closer match to the versions we know to have been drawn by Olly.
For you to believe that Ollie drew the pucture on the car window, you'd have to believe that a 13 year old boy would still be drawing stick men.
IMHO the way the two images were juxtaposed actually served to highlight differences in them which make it plausible that the version drawn on the car window was Olly's work rather than Tony's. If you look at Tony's version, the ears don't look right, whereas the one on the car seemed to me to be a closer match to the versions we know to have been drawn by Olly.
If that was the case, there was no reason at all to introduce the idea that Tony had started to obsessively draw the picture.
The point was that in the opening scene, we see the drawing and think Ollie is alive in Russia. We see the revelation and it all points to Ollie being dead, but in the back of our mind we're still thinking about that opening scene. Then, when Tony is on the phone to Julien, and drawing the picture, and then we're immediately back in Russia, we understand what it means and how the picture got there. Tony drew it.
Don't get me wrong you do have reason to suspect, all last night me and my mu were of the opinion he was in Russia, like the concealed face behind the swing pole, the drawing, the arranged trafficking back in 2006 or whenever it was and the big fat fact we never saw the boys body. But i as a viewer need closure other wise ill end up like Tony myself, lurking round the BBC studio and the writers homes............:D
Like Baptiste said you either live with your doubts (the mum) or go mad (the dad) the writers are cleaver, they've made us choose, which are we? they said we'd have closure but we don't, or maybe we do depending on which we choose
and that is why the ending is so annoying for both parties even if you agree hes dead, my mind is still boggling
I found it annoying as well. not so much about not revealing to the viewer for a fact Ollie was dead, It's just the few little clues put in to give the viewer the possibility that Ollie was still alive.that was annoying.
It is fiction after all, just let us work it out for ourselves without trying to give us doubt.
Loved the Sopranos and had no problem accepting what happened at the end, screen went black and the only possibility was Tony was dead.
I found it annoying as well. not so much about not revealing to the viewer for a fact Ollie was dead, It's just the few little clues put in to give the viewer the possibility that Ollie was still alive.that was annoying.
It is fiction after all, just let us work it out for ourselves without trying to give us doubt.
Loved the Sopranos and had no problem accepting what happened at the end, screen went black and the only possibility was Tony was dead.
Really? I chose to believe Tony was alive. Didn't Chase also say he was alive? Guess now we'll never find out.
I agree with those who say they wanted closure, I have enough ambiguity in real life. I keep hearkening back to Red Riding, which gave us one live kid at the end in the series. I want to know and see - can you believe, it doesn't air here until Jan. 10th! - one of three scenarios: that Olly was tortured and murdered (horrible, they really didn't need to go there, no they really didn't) and that the Romanian was shot in the brain so I could stand up and cheer (yeah, I'm glad Tony killed the pedophile on the boat so there) - or that Olly was found alive - or that the body of Olly was found without specific details as to the manner of his death.
Yeah, yeah, pat yourselves on the back, brothers grim, for stringing me along for all these weeks. I have no more use for your next series than I do for True Detective, which also strung me along and then let me down with two stupid cops who went into a CAVE with no backup and no bullet proof vests..........and then, unbelievably, lived.
I guess you like your characters to be GOOD or EVIL without any shades of grey. People are complicated individuals, not one dimensional stereotypes.
What did you think of Tony killing someone and not being brought to justice for it?
tony killed a scumbag who raped 53 children. There must have been shades of grey in each of those rapes, maybe he enjoyed one child more than the other.......i dont find that good or evil. Its pure evil. Tony protected countless other children with his brave act.
To even suggest that pedophiles are complicated individuals is shocking.
I thought it was a great drama and it really kept me gripped. I havne't read all the previous posts but I can see why some people may think there's a slight possibility Olly could still be alive, but it is quite clear from the Mayor's reaction after looking in the van that Olly had been killed. Though you could say he was knocked out again or sedated to look like he was, so they were able to move him to the far east?
However the circumstances into the way Olly disappeared shows this case should of be wrapped in days not 8 years.
I assuming it's due to the fact how the Mayor had a big influence in the proceedings and was connected to the disappearance.
Anyway they bring in a top detective to investigate yet there's plenty of criteria that wasn't even looked at to begin with...
Why wasn't the owners of the hotel questioned and their whereabouts accounted for?
The lady would of been asked to think of anything suspicious, and she may of been able to recall her husband leaving with a scarf in his house. His return as well, he would of not been in the same frame of mind.
What would of Alain used as an alibi having been questioned?
Tony could of recalled seeing Olly with the scarf when they left the hotel room, but not when they were leaving the hotel for the swimming pool.
If they pieced together what happened to that scarf, surely they could of solved this case sooner?
Also the fact Alain's car would of been gone for a period of time I'm assuming.
The emergency call that hung up wasn't investigated, it could of been linked to the location it was made, surely there would of been tire marks? You may be able to trace those marks to the car? What happened to the blanket in the car that had blood on it?
Seeing as the Romanian man was the one who supposedly killed Olly should he of been seen getting caught and brought to justice for some more closure for the parents?
As the writer of the series tweeted, some people don't deserve good TV.
Many of you talk about it being a stupid ending because you want it spoonfed to you - isn't that stupidity in itself?
You'd think the sudden timeshifts throughout the series was a clue - how did he end up in Russia? Because - as hinted throughout - he never let go. So it's obviously a cut to the (far?) future, the climax of his search.
And people STILL wondering if Olly is dead - FFS, the stick man picture is there in the window. Whether the boy who was given the picture is Olly... who knows? Great open ender. Shame more people don't want to use their brains a bit to indulge in such a great drama.
A lot of people are talking about the ending, but I've still got a problem with the beginning.
I can't see a 5 year old wandering off that far into the woods and onto a road, without knowing the danger in this day and age. I know he was following a cub fox, but still....(a 2, 3 or 4 year old might). The writers haven't given the parents credit. Children are taught to stay close to parents and are careful about crossing roads.
What a coincidence that Alain was driving drunk at the same time.
Otherwise , I thought it was a very good series with a few flaws here and there. I've especially enjoyed being on this thread with all you lot.:)
tony killed a scumbag who raped 53 children. There must have been shades of grey in each of those rapes, maybe he enjoyed one child more than the other.......i dont find that good or evil. Its pure evil. Tony protected countless other children with his brave act.
To even suggest that pedophiles are complicated individuals is shocking.
Go and have a look at what you have said.
Your reply just supports my earlier point. You see Tony as a good character and because he killed a bad character, that's fne and he doesn't need to be brought to justice. In fact, you go so far as to call his act brave. So, in what you deem the right circumstances, you'll support someone committing a crime and taking a life. Yet you find completely abhorrent the very idea that Bourg could be portrayed in a sympathetic light. It's rather simplistic in my view.
I stand by what I've said. I haven't sought to condone, mitigate or excuse the behaviour of characters like Vincent Bourg.
As the writer of the series tweeted, some people don't deserve good TV.
Many of you talk about it being a stupid ending because you want it spoonfed to you - isn't that stupidity in itself?
You'd think the sudden timeshifts throughout the series was a clue - how did he end up in Russia? Because - as hinted throughout - he never let go. So it's obviously a cut to the (far?) future, the climax of his search.
And people STILL wondering if Olly is dead - FFS, the stick man picture is there in the window. Whether the boy who was given the picture is Olly... who knows? Great open ender. Shame more people don't want to use their brains a bit to indulge in such a great drama.
Really? I chose to believe Tony was alive. Didn't Chase also say he was alive? Guess now we'll never find out.
I agree with those who say they wanted closure, I have enough ambiguity in real life. I keep hearkening back to Red Riding, which gave us one live kid at the end in the series. I want to know and see - can you believe, it doesn't air here until Jan. 10th! - one of three scenarios: that Olly was tortured and murdered (horrible, they really didn't need to go there, no they really didn't) and that the Romanian was shot in the brain so I could stand up and cheer (yeah, I'm glad Tony killed the pedophile on the boat so there) - or that Olly was found alive - or that the body of Olly was found without specific details as to the manner of his death.
Yeah, yeah, pat yourselves on the back, brothers grim, for stringing me along for all these weeks. I have no more use for your next series than I do for True Detective, which also strung me along and then let me down with two stupid cops who went into a CAVE with no backup and no bullet proof vests..........and then, unbelievably, lived.
I read something not long after the series ended that Chase had wrote that ending years before the final series, how he was fed up people loving Tony when he was a horrible violent man, he wasn't going to give people the satisfaction of seeing him blown to pieces.
So another series airs on 10 jan, must have missed that. brilliant, Sky+ search is handy but you do miss things.:) how did that happen, one minute am reading the series is so popular the writers are in negotiations for another series ,next minute the new series starts on Jan 10.
One thing is that Alain could never have got away with his secret drinking and fool his missus and his AA group. So the coin would never have been presented.
Especially when he walks into a local bar and asks for his usual.
Please does anyone know why Tony ended up in Russia and in particular to that flat??.................
I don't think it matters. The important point, as the policeman said, is that he'd been "doing it all over Russia". It simply showed that he wouldn't accept that Olly was probably dead, and that he was going a little insane.
I though the shaggy beard (and rough clothes - presumably smelly) was to show Tony was too engrossed in his search for Ollie to care about his personal appearance.
As the writer of the series tweeted, some people don't deserve good TV.
Many of you talk about it being a stupid ending because you want it spoonfed to you - isn't that stupidity in itself?
You'd think the sudden timeshifts throughout the series was a clue - how did he end up in Russia? Because - as hinted throughout - he never let go. So it's obviously a cut to the (far?) future, the climax of his search.
And people STILL wondering if Olly is dead - FFS, the stick man picture is there in the window. Whether the boy who was given the picture is Olly... who knows? Great open ender. Shame more people don't want to use their brains a bit to indulge in such a great drama.
Think it told us far more, we see Tony with Monique at Emilys wedding.
He could only have met up with her if he went to Paris., the reason he went to Paris was to investigate the Caid de Citadle who he knew were involved, maybe he learned more from the inevitable police investigation. this is were Russia must come in, Tony may be going off his head and obsessed with finding Ollie but he still must have had reason to go to Russia, he wouldn't just get on a plane without information even if he was going barmy.
Comments
Indeed - the BBC are not presenting Bourg and saying he's an example of paedophiles any more than Ziane is an example of a Police Officer. Of course, he's also not the only paedophile in the programme either. I wonder whether Garret illicited any sympathy from viewers?
Don't get me wrong you do have reason to suspect, all last night me and my mum were of the opinion he was in Russia, like the concealed face behind the swing pole, the drawing, the arranged trafficking back in 2006 or whenever it was and the big fat fact we never saw the boys body. But i as a viewer need closure other wise ill end up like Tony myself, lurking round the BBC studio and the writers homes............:D
Like Baptiste said you either live with your doubts (the mum) or go mad (the dad) the writers are cleaver, they've made us choose, which are we? they said we'd have closure but we don't, or maybe we do depending on which we choose
and that is why the ending is so annoying for both parties even if you agree hes dead, my mind is still boggling
...and are the BBC vindicating drunk drivers because Tony chose to keep Alain's secret? I think we have to approach intelligent debates with critical thinking and self-awareness.
IMHO the way the two images were juxtaposed actually served to highlight differences in them which make it plausible that the version drawn on the car window was Olly's work rather than Tony's. If you look at Tony's version, the ears don't look right, whereas the one on the car seemed to me to be a closer match to the versions we know to have been drawn by Olly.
Precisely - one may induce a more empathetic response because he outwardly appears not as bad as Garrett despite the fact they are one and the same
But that doesnt mean you sympathise with these sorts of people, Thats the human mind for you, veryyyyy complex
True, although I think the viewer is encouraged to ultimately consider whether by the climax it's actually relevant whether Olly is alive or dead?
Whichever is the case, whichever you choose to believe, Tony and Emily's Olly is gone.
He was gone that night in 2006.
As Baptiste said, they had a max of 72 hours. In truth it was far less.
Exactly - it's a drama with flawed characters, not some sort of BBC propaganda!!
Yep I agree, to the parents the child is gone in one way or another
For you to believe that Ollie drew the pucture on the car window, you'd have to believe that a 13 year old boy would still be drawing stick men.
If that was the case, there was no reason at all to introduce the idea that Tony had started to obsessively draw the picture.
The point was that in the opening scene, we see the drawing and think Ollie is alive in Russia. We see the revelation and it all points to Ollie being dead, but in the back of our mind we're still thinking about that opening scene. Then, when Tony is on the phone to Julien, and drawing the picture, and then we're immediately back in Russia, we understand what it means and how the picture got there. Tony drew it.
It is fiction after all, just let us work it out for ourselves without trying to give us doubt.
Loved the Sopranos and had no problem accepting what happened at the end, screen went black and the only possibility was Tony was dead.
Really? I chose to believe Tony was alive. Didn't Chase also say he was alive? Guess now we'll never find out.
I agree with those who say they wanted closure, I have enough ambiguity in real life. I keep hearkening back to Red Riding, which gave us one live kid at the end in the series. I want to know and see - can you believe, it doesn't air here until Jan. 10th! - one of three scenarios: that Olly was tortured and murdered (horrible, they really didn't need to go there, no they really didn't) and that the Romanian was shot in the brain so I could stand up and cheer (yeah, I'm glad Tony killed the pedophile on the boat so there) - or that Olly was found alive - or that the body of Olly was found without specific details as to the manner of his death.
Yeah, yeah, pat yourselves on the back, brothers grim, for stringing me along for all these weeks. I have no more use for your next series than I do for True Detective, which also strung me along and then let me down with two stupid cops who went into a CAVE with no backup and no bullet proof vests..........and then, unbelievably, lived.
Bollox, I say, bollox - thank you, Fat Andy.:D RIP Warren Clarke.
tony killed a scumbag who raped 53 children. There must have been shades of grey in each of those rapes, maybe he enjoyed one child more than the other.......i dont find that good or evil. Its pure evil. Tony protected countless other children with his brave act.
To even suggest that pedophiles are complicated individuals is shocking.
Go and have a look at what you have said.
However the circumstances into the way Olly disappeared shows this case should of be wrapped in days not 8 years.
I assuming it's due to the fact how the Mayor had a big influence in the proceedings and was connected to the disappearance.
Anyway they bring in a top detective to investigate yet there's plenty of criteria that wasn't even looked at to begin with...
Why wasn't the owners of the hotel questioned and their whereabouts accounted for?
The lady would of been asked to think of anything suspicious, and she may of been able to recall her husband leaving with a scarf in his house. His return as well, he would of not been in the same frame of mind.
What would of Alain used as an alibi having been questioned?
Tony could of recalled seeing Olly with the scarf when they left the hotel room, but not when they were leaving the hotel for the swimming pool.
If they pieced together what happened to that scarf, surely they could of solved this case sooner?
Also the fact Alain's car would of been gone for a period of time I'm assuming.
The emergency call that hung up wasn't investigated, it could of been linked to the location it was made, surely there would of been tire marks? You may be able to trace those marks to the car? What happened to the blanket in the car that had blood on it?
Seeing as the Romanian man was the one who supposedly killed Olly should he of been seen getting caught and brought to justice for some more closure for the parents?
Many of you talk about it being a stupid ending because you want it spoonfed to you - isn't that stupidity in itself?
You'd think the sudden timeshifts throughout the series was a clue - how did he end up in Russia? Because - as hinted throughout - he never let go. So it's obviously a cut to the (far?) future, the climax of his search.
And people STILL wondering if Olly is dead - FFS, the stick man picture is there in the window. Whether the boy who was given the picture is Olly... who knows? Great open ender. Shame more people don't want to use their brains a bit to indulge in such a great drama.
I can't see a 5 year old wandering off that far into the woods and onto a road, without knowing the danger in this day and age. I know he was following a cub fox, but still....(a 2, 3 or 4 year old might). The writers haven't given the parents credit. Children are taught to stay close to parents and are careful about crossing roads.
What a coincidence that Alain was driving drunk at the same time.
Otherwise , I thought it was a very good series with a few flaws here and there. I've especially enjoyed being on this thread with all you lot.:)
Your reply just supports my earlier point. You see Tony as a good character and because he killed a bad character, that's fne and he doesn't need to be brought to justice. In fact, you go so far as to call his act brave. So, in what you deem the right circumstances, you'll support someone committing a crime and taking a life. Yet you find completely abhorrent the very idea that Bourg could be portrayed in a sympathetic light. It's rather simplistic in my view.
I stand by what I've said. I haven't sought to condone, mitigate or excuse the behaviour of characters like Vincent Bourg.
Er, Tony drew the picture on the window.
So another series airs on 10 jan, must have missed that. brilliant, Sky+ search is handy but you do miss things.:) how did that happen, one minute am reading the series is so popular the writers are in negotiations for another series ,next minute the new series starts on Jan 10.
Especially when he walks into a local bar and asks for his usual.
I don't think it matters. The important point, as the policeman said, is that he'd been "doing it all over Russia". It simply showed that he wouldn't accept that Olly was probably dead, and that he was going a little insane.
Yes I did but then forgot about it. Just watched that bit back and it seems completely random - but weird
That's how i took his unkempt appearance too
He could only have met up with her if he went to Paris., the reason he went to Paris was to investigate the Caid de Citadle who he knew were involved, maybe he learned more from the inevitable police investigation. this is were Russia must come in, Tony may be going off his head and obsessed with finding Ollie but he still must have had reason to go to Russia, he wouldn't just get on a plane without information even if he was going barmy.
Was that not marks son?..wonder if it was him getting out of the way. .maybe playing second fiddle to a dead boy