How to extend ring main (sockets) to add extra socket

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  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 12,830
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    But if you overload an extension lead...
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 5,383
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    njp wrote: »
    It's not clear from the charred remains what went wrong. Was this the result of a junction box with an insufficient current rating for the application, or overheating from a bad connection, or something else?

    External grey insulation was cut back outside of the JB, poor stripping technique left nicks in the inner insulation and shorting of L-N, neutral terminal not tightened properly causing overheating. A complete comedy of errors!
  • AppleJuice:)AppleJuice:) Posts: 3,033
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    petertard wrote: »
    But if you overload an extension lead...

    The MCB for the ring main will trip.

    It hard to overload an extension though unless you plugged 3 bar fires into it or something.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 5,383
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    petertard wrote: »
    But if you overload an extension lead...

    The 13A fuse in it's plug will blow...
  • Stewie_CStewie_C Posts: 1,739
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    It depends on what the OP wants to run on the extension lead. The big problem with them is if they are overloaded then the 13A plug will get hot, and they are known to catch fire in those circumstances. If the OP intends to run a computer and a phone charger, or a TV then an extension lead is fine, and what they are intended for. If he intends to run any (or several :eek: :eek:) kitchen appliances, then most certainly do not use an extension lead!
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 12,830
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    Two of the local shops had fires recently due to refrigeration units catching fire. One was completely gutted.
  • CaxtonCaxton Posts: 28,881
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    petertard wrote: »
    Two of the local shops had fires recently due to refrigeration units catching fire. One was completely gutted.

    You can never be too safe as far as electricity is concerned, that is why it is a good idea to get a proper fully-qualified electrician to do any work, there are far too many cowboys about that will have a go at wiring up anything most have not a clue what they are doing either..

    The job done wrong can easily be your life at stake. If you get a dodgy roofer, decorator, plumber, bricklayer, gardener etc., to do work for you it is unlikely dodgy work done by them will result in your direct death, inconvenience maybe. With anything electrical done incorrectly death can be instantaneous either by shock or fire. Thousands of house fires are due to an electrical faults.

    Think — would you employ a self-taught amateur surgeon to do a heart transplant on you, if the answer is no then get a proper qualified electrician to do your electrical work for you. It may cost a bit more but what price on a life or the prospects of your house burning to the ground.
  • spiney2spiney2 Posts: 27,058
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    It's fine to add just 1 spur, ie, a 3 core 13A cable section to another switched socket, in parallel with an existing socket.

    That's "non notifiable work".

    However, it's illegal to alter any part of the ring-main. If you do that, it must be re-tested in accordance with the IEE regs 17th edition (needs time lord technology!).

    This change came in because people do insist on killing themselves (and other people) with weird wiring .......

    http://www.diyfixit.co.uk/safety-and-regulations/electrical-regulations.html
  • CaptMcMallisterCaptMcMallister Posts: 227
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    spiney2 wrote: »
    However, it's illegal to alter any part of the ring-main. If you do that, it must be re-tested in accordance with the IEE regs 17th edition (needs time lord technology!).

    http://www.diyfixit.co.uk/safety-and-regulations/electrical-regulations.html

    The link you provide contradicts your post, it says:

    "In addition, some other works may be deemed Non-notifiable anywhere except in kichens, bathrooms, utility rooms and other special locations. In these areas they will be considered Notifiable
    Examples of such work are:
    Adding light fittings and switches to existing circuits
    Adding sockets or fused spurs to existing ring or radial circuits "

    It says you can add a socket to a ring, it isn't specific to whether or not that be by including it in the ring or spurring it off, so can you actual backup your assertion "it's illegal to alter any part of the ring-main"?
  • Stewie_CStewie_C Posts: 1,739
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    Non notifiable means that it doesn't have to be notified to building control. It still has to be installed in accordance with the 17th edition wiring regulations no matter who does it. So you can add a socket to a ring, but without the knowledge to install it correctly AND PROVE IT'S SAFE I would peronally say don't do it.

    However, nobody can force you to comply with regulations that are there basically to stop people killing themselves, or setting fire to the house and killing their family. Personally, I think what would make people sit up and take notice is if insurance companies decided not to pay out if the damage to property was caused by DIY works, and I've seen quite a fair amount of it too. Some people are very very lucky to still be alive despite their best efforts to electrocute themselves.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 12,830
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    So what would you look for in an advertisement for an electrician ? Which letters after their name or which organisation to be a member of ?
  • CaptMcMallisterCaptMcMallister Posts: 227
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    petertard wrote: »
    So what would you look for in an advertisement for an electrician ? Which letters after their name or which organisation to be a member of ?

    NICEIC

    http://niceic.com/householder/find-an-electrician
  • seacamseacam Posts: 21,364
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    Stewie_C wrote: »
    It depends on what the OP wants to run on the extension lead. The big problem with them is if they are overloaded then the 13A plug will get hot, and they are known to catch fire in those circumstances. If the OP intends to run a computer and a phone charger, or a TV then an extension lead is fine, and what they are intended for. If he intends to run any (or several :eek: :eek:) kitchen appliances, then most certainly do not use an extension lead!
    Not exactly, in those circumstances, a surge protection unit/lead is the better option.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 12,830
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    I do use surge protectors. They can prevent or lessen damage to your pc.
  • njpnjp Posts: 27,583
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    seacam wrote: »
    Not exactly, in those circumstances, a surge protection unit/lead is the better option.
    I'm personally sceptical about the value of surge protectors containing tiny MOVs as a shunt mechanism. I still have one connected to my computer, but the protection mechanism allegedly sacrificed itself to save my equipment many years ago, and I've seen no reason to replace it.

    I've also seen photographs were the sacrificial gesture is accompanied by a small fire, but I wouldn't want to alarm people. I'm sure most of them are perfectly safe, albeit ineffective!
  • seacamseacam Posts: 21,364
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    njp wrote: »
    I'm personally sceptical about the value of surge protectors containing tiny MOVs as a shunt mechanism. I still have one connected to my computer, but the protection mechanism allegedly sacrificed itself to save my equipment many years ago, and I've seen no reason to replace it.

    I've also seen photographs were the sacrificial gesture is accompanied by a small fire, but I wouldn't want to alarm people. I'm sure most of them are perfectly safe, albeit ineffective!
    Yes, I agree to a point but if you are going to connect sensitive equipment, a surge protector lead/unit is better then nothing and writing for myself they have certainly protected our PCs and ancillaries in the past.

    The problem as I see it is so many users/owners of surge protection units don't have the correct ones.

    They believe any old surge protector will do when it comes to protecting sensitive equipment, it's simply not the case.

    In fact there are very few protection devises out there that will do for such equipment but there are a couple of makes.

    But having said that,-- your hard earned and recently purchased flat TV should have a surge protect fitted via the power supply/socket and aerial connection.
  • digimon900digimon900 Posts: 4,249
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    I remember working like the clappers to get my kitchen installed before Christmas 2004, I was working day and night by floodlight so that there would be no doubt that all the work had been done before Part P rules came into force. The electrical work was major, as we had build an extension and had to run circuits for ring-main, appliance spurs, Cooker, lights, Fans, etc. from the meter cabinet at the front of the house to the extension at the back. I did all the wiring myself and as a precaution got the local electrician to sign it all off for me. The UK has lovely SAFE electrics with SOLID lightswitches and pull cords in bathrooms. Three pin plugs that stay still in moulded bakelite sockets each with its own switch. By contratst The US electrical outlets are flimsy and weak. People think nothing of leaving extension leads out in the rain, we dont use junction boxes as they have these awful cups that screw onto twisted wires!
  • seacamseacam Posts: 21,364
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    digimon900 wrote: »
    I remember working like the clappers to get my kitchen installed before Christmas 2004, I was working day and night by floodlight so that there would be no doubt that all the work had been done before Part P rules came into force. The electrical work was major, as we had build an extension and had to run circuits for ring-main, appliance spurs, Cooker, lights, Fans, etc. from the meter cabinet at the front of the house to the extension at the back. I did all the wiring myself and as a precaution got the local electrician to sign it all off for me. The UK has lovely SAFE electrics with SOLID lightswitches and pull cords in bathrooms. Three pin plugs that stay still in moulded bakelite sockets each with its own switch. By contratst The US electrical outlets are flimsy and weak. People think nothing of leaving extension leads out in the rain, we dont use junction boxes as they have these awful cups that screw onto twisted wires!
    We use to use something very similar in this country for domestic supplies,---still come across them in use today.
  • Stewie_CStewie_C Posts: 1,739
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    petertard wrote: »
    So what would you look for in an advertisement for an electrician ? Which letters after their name or which organisation to be a member of ?

    Yes, the NICEIC are one trade body. There are several others that offer similar protection to householders such as the ECA, ELECSA and the other one that I always forget. If you have work done by one of their members and there is some dispute, you have a comeback via the NICEIC etc.

    Re extension leads, yes, surge protection ones *might* offer an advantage if you are using a computer, but I've personally never had one and see them as people like Belkin using the surge protection angle to frighten the bejeezus out of punters into buying a vastly over-priced bit of kit that may be not quite as necessary as they tell you they are. Personal choice though.
  • njpnjp Posts: 27,583
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    seacam wrote: »
    Yes, I agree to a point but if you are going to connect sensitive equipment, a surge protector lead/unit is better then nothing and writing for myself they have certainly protected our PCs and ancillaries in the past.
    But how do you know that? Isn't that a bit like me saying that the fact my house continues to be elephant-free is due entirely to the success of my patented anti-elephant protector?

    [Slightly flippant: I do know that voltage excursions occur, and that surge protectors have the ability to absorb a limited number of joules worth that would otherwise end up in your equipment. What I don't know is whether these surges (rather than ones that will happily take out the "protector" and possibly the wiring too) wouldn't be dealt with at least as well by a properly designed PSU in the equipment itself. Given that the protection components used in a typical surge protector cost a few pence, I suspect the latter. Different story for serious whole house surge protection devices of course, or for a decent online UPS]
  • Stewie_CStewie_C Posts: 1,739
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    Power supplies are designed to cope with the variances of supply, and most will have a surge limiting capacitor right across the incoming supply to offer some protection to the power supply. I have seen PSU's where lightning strike has happened and they have had a belt they were not designed for, and the print has vaporised. Nothing to do but write the equipment off at that point IMHO. I don't think a surge protector would have made much difference. Obviously some of the methods suggested above would work well, but in general households the cost of installing them is going to outweigh the value of the equipment you are protecting.
  • seacamseacam Posts: 21,364
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    njp wrote: »
    But how do you know that? Isn't that a bit like me saying that the fact my house continues to be elephant-free is due entirely to the success of my patented anti-elephant protector?

    [Slightly flippant: I do know that voltage excursions occur, and that surge protectors have the ability to absorb a limited number of joules worth that would otherwise end up in your equipment. What I don't know is whether these surges (rather than ones that will happily take out the "protector" and possibly the wiring too) wouldn't be dealt with at least as well by a properly designed PSU in the equipment itself. Given that the protection components used in a typical surge protector cost a few pence, I suspect the latter. Different story for serious whole house surge protection devices of course, or for a decent online UPS]
    Unfortunately where we live, we are subject to 3-4 power outages annually for several reasons.

    Our property is reasonably well protected and I have installed a UPS.

    But we have suffered equipment loss through surges before.

    Because of the power outages/surges I have read the riot act out to the family, all sensitive equipment must be plugged into SPs.

    How do I know they have protected our household sensitive equipment?

    About three years ago one surge took out our supply, when things were restored, the surge had taken out the SPs but the equipment/PCs-Laptops connected were found to be fully working.

    What wasn't was the two laptops being charged using standard sockets.

    Another kind of grounding was dished out,---none the less, two newish laptops fried.

    I don't disagree with yours or Stewie's views and yes a properly well designed PSU would be an answer as are decent MBs

    The problem there of course is most consumers wouldn't know how to replace a PSU or MB, a socket lead,---much easier.

    I guess what I writing and repeating is most consumers who have sensitive equipment plugged into SPs aren't protected, simply because they don't have the correct SP for the job, they have been or sold themselves a lemon.

    Consumers should realise there are so many ways of spikes/surges entering sensitive equipment and doing untold damage and IMO the warranties given with some of these SP units are nonsense.

    But I think we can all agree the best kind of surge protection, when lightening is present, remove all plugs/ phone/broadband/TV connections,---impracticable yes, in most cases,--- hassle yes,--- but not as much as loosing expensive or irreplaceable data.

    And a new TV should have an SP lead installed,
    it's better then nothing.
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