Terrible but you realize it's not an exclusively Muslim problem and you could substitute just about any other word for "Muslim."
I was once in a similar position. So I did understand . However I it was never so terrified as her. She was completely ostracised from all family all friends and society . A Muslim woman cannot easily walk away from her heritage.
As was stated by myself and others a telephone conversation is not a good example, both participants are on a level playing field whereas face to vieled face is not.
I can see that, but you can still communicate, can you not? What is it you think you will miss if you are having a conversation with a stranger on the street because you can't see their face?
I can see that, but you can still communicate, can you not? What is it you think you will miss if you are having a conversation with a stranger on the street because you can't see their face?
None verbal signs from expression of eyes and mouth particularly eyes, my hearing is not great so I need to read facial expressions.
Wife beating was once legal in Britain I read somewere.
We moved forward and changed the laws.
Well yes women didn't have the vote either.
All these changes have been fought over many years and eventually we move forward to a more progressive, inclusive and tolerant society. It would be a tragedy if we ever did move to something like Sharia or adopt the primitive practices of the Islamic religion in our country and wipe out hundreds of years of progress.
None verbal signs from expression of eyes and mouth particularly eyes, my hearing is not great so I need to read facial expressions.
As I said above, if you tell a woman you cannot hear she will raise her veil - it is considered to be the proper thing to do for someone with hearing problems.
Of all the religions throughout history that I wish had never been invented Islam just has to be the worst of the lot (and that is against some bloody stiff competition).
Imagine being born a woman into this backward faith - it is so tragic.
As I said above, if you tell a woman you cannot hear she will raise her veil - it is considered to be the proper thing to do for someone with hearing problems.
In public? When there are men behind me in the queue? Unlikely, I feel.
And will she raise it for a man?
I can see great campaign potential here led by us impaired hearing folk.... and perhaps ;-)a few who suddenly develop hearing issues.:cool:
All these changes have been fought over many years and eventually we move forward to a more progressive, inclusive and tolerant society. It would be a tragedy if we ever did move to something like Sharia or adopt the primitive practices of the Islamic religion in our country and wipe out hundreds of years of progress.
if sharia law did happen here you can guarantee there be a big rush out of Britain by British citizens,
As I said above, if you tell a woman you cannot hear she will raise her veil - it is considered to be the proper thing to do for someone with hearing problems.
Most people can't really communicate effectively with someone face to face ( assuming your not blind ) with someone that has their face covered.
A lot of communication is expressed via facial expressions and body language.
You ridiculous straw-man argument about this being equivalent to talking on the phone is absurd.
In public? When there are men behind me in the queue? Unlikely, I feel.
And will she raise it for a man?
I can see great campaign potential here led by us impaired hearing folk.... and perhaps ;-)a few who suddenly develop hearing issues.:cool:
Yes and yes. This came up some years ago when I worked in the East End... the office next door was the disability unit and the issue was raised by them. Some Muslims came in to discuss it and the upshot was that Islam's rules on being helpful to people with disabilities trumped the modesty requirement.
Most people can't really communicate effectively with someone face to face ( assuming your not blind ) with someone that has their face covered.
A lot of communication is expressed via facial expressions and body language.
You ridiculous straw-man argument about this being equivalent to talking on the phone is absurd.
Then how do they communicate effectively on the phone? You obviously don't need to have facial expressions and body language... it is a nice-to-have of course, but it isn't essential. And you will still see a shrug or hand movement so ii is just the face part. I am not denying that communication face to face is more pleasant if you can see them, but it can still be effective - ie you can tell them what you need them to know and vice versa.
Then how do they communicate effectively on the phone? You obviously don't need to have facial expressions and body language... it is a nice-to-have of course, but it isn't essential. And you will still see a shrug or hand movement so ii is just the face part. I am not denying that communication face to face is more pleasant if you can see them, but it can still be effective - ie you can tell them what you need them to know and vice versa.
Face to face contact is a British tradition and there should be a referendum to ban the burqa.
You've been banging on about how great democracy is, would you support this?
and anyone asked how three underage girls just walked through a british airport without even being questioned why there's no adult or guardian with them?
Then how do they communicate effectively on the phone? You obviously don't need to have facial expressions and body language... it is a nice-to-have of course, but it isn't essential. And you will still see a shrug or hand movement so ii is just the face part. I am not denying that communication face to face is more pleasant if you can see them, but it can still be effective - ie you can tell them what you need them to know and vice versa.
When you talk on the phone you automatically compensate as it's obvious you can't see the person you are talking to.
Face to face you expect to be able to see the persons face, make eye contact and read facial expressions. You can't compensate like your speaking to someone on the phone as you can see the person and it's just too confusing to have any meaningful non trivial conversation.
In our company we still have face to face meetings for the important stuff as you just can't communicate precisely enough over the phone as you can face to face.
Then how do they communicate effectively on the phone? You obviously don't need to have facial expressions and body language... it is a nice-to-have of course, but it isn't essential. And you will still see a shrug or hand movement so ii is just the face part. I am not denying that communication face to face is more pleasant if you can see them, but it can still be effective - ie you can tell them what you need them to know and vice versa.
This communication thing is a side-issue though, the key issue that I will continue to bring you back to is that your 'it may make life difficult for some' argument is defeatist. We can and should try to tackle any consequential difficulties as well.
All forms of religious, cult and other discrimination in society against girls and women should be stamped out as quickly as we can achieve it. There can be no excuses where gender equality is concerned and I am astonished that you of all people are making them for this particular and overt form of gender inequality.
I wouldn't speak to someone who was wearing a burqa let alone try and have a conversation with them. Such fancy dress is something I profoundly disagree with even seeing in a Western country.
Me too. Sometimes I feel like waving my hand in front of women wearing veils and saying 'Hello, is there anybody in there?'
I guess I'll have to steal their passports, so I can find out what they look like. : rolleyes :
Before you even get into all the sociological, cultural and psychological analysis into what could possibly have possessed the likes of these 15 year old to have an adventure the likes of which is really just the deaths of their own freedoms, what is amazing about the story initially when it first hits you is that mostly teenagers have always pushed for greater freedoms and rebel against the reign of their more restrictive parents and society, but with anybody female from the moderate Muslim background in the UK swayed into joining ""Islamic" State" (Daesh) they are seemingly enthusiastic about not just being severely restricted and placed under immediate house arrest for the rest of their lives but are enthusiastic about making the world a worse place, I don't think it would actually be scientifically possible to be more of a "tw**" than that, unless you want to oppress the whole universe too! That is the confusing world about ISIS (Daesh) as a whole actually, it's a group of people who actively want the world to become more boring yet have a GTA style rampage against innocent people to achieve it, it might be all testosterone now, but would they really want to live in the world they say they want to create, might be best for them if they went to heaven and their 72 virgins early.
Often empires were created out of violence, in the 21st Century we should end the precedent.
I am waiting for the sound of someone actually trying to find an argument to counter mine... the old 'that's a straw-man' is just a way of saying 'we can't think of one'.
Perhaps you could answer my biggest problem with the veil. I'm hard of hearing, and often have to depend on lip reading/reaction on a person's face, the veil stops this and can make interaction virtually impossible.
How am I supposed to interact with a woman who's eyes are the only visible part of the face?
We need a ban on the wearing of veils, shopping centers managed to stop people who were wearing hoodies with the hood up from entering due to fears of robbery etc, the same for the veil IMO.. Stop it now, because in areas like where I live, the wearing of the veil is happening more and more, even serving customers in shops wearing the veil.
Women fought long and hard for the freedoms that most of us Western women take for granted, we must do something to stop us slipping back to a time when we were regarded as second class citizens.
and anyone asked how three underage girls just walked through a british airport without even being questioned why there's no adult or guardian with them?
Quick check here shows that around the age of 11-12 years is the cut off point for any special requirements. After that, they are okay to travel unaccompanied.
Comments
I was once in a similar position. So I did understand . However I it was never so terrified as her. She was completely ostracised from all family all friends and society . A Muslim woman cannot easily walk away from her heritage.
Very true, but Islam, or at least Sharia makes these practises acceptable.
Even wife beating is prescribed as an acceptable means of keeping the women in check in some interpretations of Sharia.
I can see that, but you can still communicate, can you not? What is it you think you will miss if you are having a conversation with a stranger on the street because you can't see their face?
Wife beating was once legal in Britain I read somewere.
We moved forward and changed the laws.
Raping your wife was also acceptable until quite recently . I think 1982.
None verbal signs from expression of eyes and mouth particularly eyes, my hearing is not great so I need to read facial expressions.
True and in various parts of society non Muslims justify the same behaviors,
It was much later than that, maybe 1990 or so, I remember it changing.
Well yes women didn't have the vote either.
All these changes have been fought over many years and eventually we move forward to a more progressive, inclusive and tolerant society. It would be a tragedy if we ever did move to something like Sharia or adopt the primitive practices of the Islamic religion in our country and wipe out hundreds of years of progress.
As I said above, if you tell a woman you cannot hear she will raise her veil - it is considered to be the proper thing to do for someone with hearing problems.
Imagine being born a woman into this backward faith - it is so tragic.
In public? When there are men behind me in the queue? Unlikely, I feel.
And will she raise it for a man?
I can see great campaign potential here led by us impaired hearing folk.... and perhaps ;-)a few who suddenly develop hearing issues.:cool:
if sharia law did happen here you can guarantee there be a big rush out of Britain by British citizens,
Most people can't really communicate effectively with someone face to face ( assuming your not blind ) with someone that has their face covered.
A lot of communication is expressed via facial expressions and body language.
You ridiculous straw-man argument about this being equivalent to talking on the phone is absurd.
Yes and yes. This came up some years ago when I worked in the East End... the office next door was the disability unit and the issue was raised by them. Some Muslims came in to discuss it and the upshot was that Islam's rules on being helpful to people with disabilities trumped the modesty requirement.
Exactly, my hearing isn't dire or anything but I suspect like a lot of people none verbal signs are important.
Then how do they communicate effectively on the phone? You obviously don't need to have facial expressions and body language... it is a nice-to-have of course, but it isn't essential. And you will still see a shrug or hand movement so ii is just the face part. I am not denying that communication face to face is more pleasant if you can see them, but it can still be effective - ie you can tell them what you need them to know and vice versa.
Face to face contact is a British tradition and there should be a referendum to ban the burqa.
You've been banging on about how great democracy is, would you support this?
When you talk on the phone you automatically compensate as it's obvious you can't see the person you are talking to.
Face to face you expect to be able to see the persons face, make eye contact and read facial expressions. You can't compensate like your speaking to someone on the phone as you can see the person and it's just too confusing to have any meaningful non trivial conversation.
In our company we still have face to face meetings for the important stuff as you just can't communicate precisely enough over the phone as you can face to face.
This communication thing is a side-issue though, the key issue that I will continue to bring you back to is that your 'it may make life difficult for some' argument is defeatist. We can and should try to tackle any consequential difficulties as well.
All forms of religious, cult and other discrimination in society against girls and women should be stamped out as quickly as we can achieve it. There can be no excuses where gender equality is concerned and I am astonished that you of all people are making them for this particular and overt form of gender inequality.
Me too. Sometimes I feel like waving my hand in front of women wearing veils and saying 'Hello, is there anybody in there?'
I guess I'll have to steal their passports, so I can find out what they look like. : rolleyes :
Often empires were created out of violence, in the 21st Century we should end the precedent.
Perhaps you could answer my biggest problem with the veil. I'm hard of hearing, and often have to depend on lip reading/reaction on a person's face, the veil stops this and can make interaction virtually impossible.
How am I supposed to interact with a woman who's eyes are the only visible part of the face?
We need a ban on the wearing of veils, shopping centers managed to stop people who were wearing hoodies with the hood up from entering due to fears of robbery etc, the same for the veil IMO.. Stop it now, because in areas like where I live, the wearing of the veil is happening more and more, even serving customers in shops wearing the veil.
Women fought long and hard for the freedoms that most of us Western women take for granted, we must do something to stop us slipping back to a time when we were regarded as second class citizens.
Quick check here shows that around the age of 11-12 years is the cut off point for any special requirements. After that, they are okay to travel unaccompanied.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?site=&source=hp&q=children+flying+alone&oq=children+flying&gs_l=hp.1.0.0.1383.4760.0.7093.16.11.0.5.5.0.144.1059.7j4.11.0.msedr...0...1c.1.62.hp..1.15.979.0.f7i6PqSU7Rw