I'm in North Bolton, and will be voting no. Let me explain the reasons...
No Tram link to Bolton.
I visit hospitals a lot, and sometimes have to stay in. My relatives and friends will have to pay to visit me!
How will the charging people know if I go in for treatment. And OK I have a blue badge, but will I get chased for money anyway? You know what Councils are like.
80% finished - who decides what 80% is?
It'll shoot up in price once it's in - you watch! Just look at the London Charge which has gone up way above inflation, and the M6 Toll road similarly.
I don't trust New Labour as far as I can chuck them. (I could tell you why sometime.... ) This looks to me like a bribe or even bullying. Typical New Labour. Expecting us to pay again for what we've already paid for more than once.
At least London contracts their services out to companies to provide them - all we'll get is stagecoach/first/arriva raping Manchester for all they can get - once the charge is in you'll be ****** either way.
That's what Stagecoach are doing anyway - I sometimes travel in from Didsbury (where some of my family live) to the city centre and can see how they're raping people.
I would vote no. I live near Warrington but go to Manchester for family reasons, United games, the Christmas markets, and occasionally shopping, and see that public transport is where the improvement is needed. If I'm in Didsbury village centre, you see where they've had the extended Metrolink route foundations for years, but they've done nothing. And not enough Metrolink services or carriages were set up when the service started in 1992, which explains how cramped they are to breaking point on matchday and the delays I've had on the service for all three United games I've got to this season. And no doubt will get for the Middlesbrough game next month.
Instead of doing improvement to public transport and helping out a congested city, Labour are bullying Manchester into voting yes, or not getting the funding.
What is disgusting is that we get a bit of the money as a grant and the rest as a long which we'll pay back as a loan in our council tax. I didn't see that in the leaflet in the voting gumph!!!!
I don't own a car and I use public transport but I'll still be voting no just on sheer principle. It's another tax and it's wrong. Besides, Bury (where I live) will get nothing. I don't know anybody personally who will be voting yes. I'd be very surprised if the yes's take it.
edinburgh city council's present bunch of syphilitic parasites have been hell bent on making sure everyone in edinburgh suffers since we voted no to congestion charging, our once excellent bus service has been decimated and forced into route cuts all because they are hell bent on getting us to accept a bloody tram line that will only benefit the parasitic officials who infect the scottish office building down victoria quay in leith like maggots on a dead body,
now the tram line/works is fast running out of money the elected ruling scum on edinburgh council are hell bent on robbing other councils transport allocations in order to continue to fund the bloody donald asshole dewar memorial tramline, the poor folk in the borders may not see their waverly line reopened,
trust me if it goes to a no vote manchester's cuntcillors will use every trick to hurt and punnish you all, it will also try to get other areas transport special projects funding allocated to them,
edinburgh is in a hell of a mess, don't allow your cuntcillors to do the same to manchester,
I believe that most motorists see this and will vote 'no'. On the other hand, most users of public transport (who seem to hate the motorist!) will vote 'yes'.
I'd be interested to see how these figures compare.
You'll be surprised, I am a user of public transport in Greater Manchester, and I have voted no.
It will do a great deal of damage to the economy of the area, which will probably still be recovering in 2013.
And the so-called improvements won't help me in any way around the areas I use public transport.
I think there is a lot of stuff the Yes campaign are hiding, so even though you would think I would gain from this, I think not.
What is disgusting is that we get a bit of the money as a grant and the rest as a long which we'll pay back as a loan in our council tax. I didn't see that in the leaflet in the voting gumph!!!!
I read that in the Urmston Messenger today. 31 years to pay it back. What a con.
What is disgusting is that we get a bit of the money as a grant and the rest as a long which we'll pay back as a loan in our council tax. I didn't see that in the leaflet in the voting gumph!!!!
Despite this:
Another potential alternative which has been ruled out is increasing council tax. To match the investment TIF will deliver council tax would have to increase significantly. It would be 16% higher for the next 25 years. On a Band D home paying £1,344 at today’s prices this would equate to a rise of about £215 per year.
So who knows. End of the day I have voted yes because I think it is the best option but i respect peoples right to vote no. (and sadly I think the no's will win)
I voted yes. While I do not use public transport personally, any improvement to it is a good thing, even it it means charging some people to drive into the city.
Instead of doing improvement to public transport and helping out a congested city, Labour are bullying Manchester into voting yes, or not getting the funding.
Exactly... I can't even see how the improvements even come close to the amount being spent. Its the all or nothing attitude that grates me most.
I don't own a car and I use public transport but I'll still be voting no just on sheer principle. It's another tax and it's wrong. Besides, Bury (where I live) will get nothing. I don't know anybody personally who will be voting yes. I'd be very surprised if the yes's take it.
Im in the same situation.... don't own a car and still voting no.
The proposals will benefit me and should I get a car would travel against the charge so im not going to lose if yes wins.
However im voting NO and would hate this to come in as I have first hand experience of GMPTE/stagecoach on a daily basis. I know just how incompetent they are with an underlying attitude that just couldn't care less... this can't be changed however much you spend.
I don't trust them with the money and don't trust them not to waste it and I don't like all the self created industry that comes with it - all these unelected groups/quangos wanting a slice of the pie sticking their snouts in the trough.
All this £3bn investment is bollocks too... we're getting £1.55bn from the TIF and a £1.2bn loan, less the £318m set up for the charging
That leaves just £1.2bn investment with a loan of £1.55bn that will effectively turn into many billions over the 30 years it takes to pay off
This will leave a huge shortfall in repayment coming from council taxes and no investment 5 or so years down the line when needed in public transport, as the coffers will be empty and theres no chance of the private companies spending the cash.
So we're back to square one, with a crap public transport service, the cretins at the council still running the show and a noose round our neck in the form of the congestion charge.
I voted yes. While I do not use public transport personally, any improvement to it is a good thing, even it it means charging some people to drive into the city.
Love it... splash out billions to private companies willy nilly all under the pretence that "Any improvement has got to be a good thing"
Brlliant, why not double the charge and up the waste of money to £6bn.... we'll get a few new bus shelters out of that - "But any improvement has got to be a good thing"
That's what Stagecoach are doing anyway - I sometimes travel in from Didsbury (where some of my family live) to the city centre and can see how they're raping people.
I would vote no. I live near Warrington but go to Manchester for family reasons, United games, the Christmas markets, and occasionally shopping, and see that public transport is where the improvement is needed. If I'm in Didsbury village centre, you see where they've had the extended Metrolink route foundations for years, but they've done nothing. And not enough Metrolink services or carriages were set up when the service started in 1992, which explains how cramped they are to breaking point on matchday and the delays I've had on the service for all three United games I've got to this season. And no doubt will get for the Middlesbrough game next month.
Instead of doing improvement to public transport and helping out a congested city, Labour are bullying Manchester into voting yes, or not getting the funding.
That's a really interesting point, and one I was completely unaware of until today. I was chatting to a student of mine today who's lived in South Manchester pretty much all her life, and she raised a similar point to the one I highlighted above.
Also - and here's another point I hadn't thought of before - she said that she's still to find out why the original tram route went all the way to Eccles (no offence to the people living in Eccles, but it isn't exactly the shopping / financial heart of Manchester), whereas they didn't plan a connection to Manchester Airport which would have made more sense - at a time when not even a train would get you there.
She was a real eye-opener, very aware of and knowledgeable about local politics (not just of today). Let's just say that my vote has changed from undecided to "no".
I'm still undecided; I don't use the bus in Manchester (yet) as I live only 3 minutes from Uni and when I do go home I use the train. Also, there's a free bus - so why pay? I see many reasons for a congestion charge, those who know or have seen Deansgate at rush hour will know why. Improvements to public transport is always a bonus, hopefully there will be more space on the Metrolink because at the moment it's like London Underground at rush hour. However, there are reasons against a congestion charge such as say, shop workers who can't afford to live in Manchester but work in the Arndale; a congestion charge may mean that said workers will no longer be able to afford to commute to work either.
My wife told me yesterday that she had heard something on the TV news about London scrapping its congestion charge, or at least in part of the zone, as it was not proving effective.
My wife told me yesterday that she had heard something on the TV news about London scrapping its congestion charge, or at least in part of the zone, as it was not proving effective.
Does anyone have any further information?
She may have heard about Boris wanting to get rid of the extension to the CC zone. Article in yesterdays Times here...
I remember Jeremy Vine asking Ken Livingston on the first day of the congestion charge, what happens if after spending all this money it isn't a success, Ken said, it would be.... :rolleyes:
The "thinking" behind Congestion Charging is flawed since the problem is not actually congestion.
Traffic congestion is just a symptom of the real problem, the real problem is the absolute need to travel everywhere by vehicle over distances that just keep getting longer and longer, mostly due to government policies.
It's funny how the social problems we are currently experiencing in this country are actually not being dealt with at all, just the symptoms are being "fixed" with lashings of cash. Of course they are not being fixed at all and very soon make a return.
It will take an exceptional leader to really change things for the better since a "sea-change" in the way we live is needed, local services, local jobs, the end of mega-billion-pound spending on transport(!!!) when the solution is less movement not more.
Why will you be voting no? If it goes ahead we get government funding to improve the public transport network, it'll create loads of new jobs and improve the transport links to/ from the most deprived areas of Manchester. The charge is not due to come in til 2013. If its a no the government will give us nothing and the public transport will remain the same.
Obviously I'm voting yes.
Yeah, that's the same spin they put on it when 'selling' the idea around the world!
Doesn't quite work out like that in practice. For a start, if it is effective then people will stop coming into town (and therefore paying) so you get no more revenue. Bet you'll find that certain transport projects that would have been funded 'normally' will now rely on this money instead and be cut back, or axed.
nobody has the balls to get First , Stagecoach & Arriva consigned to the dustbin where they belong.
There's a solution and that's running it like London with one organisation creating all of the routes and then allowing private operators to run them under licence. The buses look the same, timetabling is sorted out properly and ticketing is standardised.
It's just that the council doesn't need to actually run them.
With the rail network , why where the Northen & Transpennine franchises not geared up to include significant investment when they where tendered out a few years ago? Why give a 14 year franchise to Northern Rail (Serco -property managers/netherlands state railway) that didnt provide for any growth, new trains or major service improvements?
The Department for Transport set the timetable, work out the rolling stock requirements and even future expansion. In this case, the TOC has very little say - and prices things around what extras they'll do (refurbish trains, stations etc). First tried to solve its woes on the Great Western route by buying its own trains!!
There's a solution and that's running it like London with one organisation creating all of the routes and then allowing private operators to run them under licence. The buses look the same, timetabling is sorted out properly and ticketing is standardised.
It's just that the council doesn't need to actually run them.
Haven't read the whole thread, just skimmed a few posts.
If you people are seriously bothered get mithering your local MP and councillors.
If there's an organised anti-congestion charge campaign get them on to it.
Get yourselves some sort of TFL like authority.
A little more Carrot instead of stick, that said if the congestion problems are really bad, you'll probably need the stick (congestion charge) eventually.
TFL collects the money and Tenders out the routes and sets the timetables, age of stock etc.
Then you can have the profitable routes paying for the routes that don't make money.
Comments
No Tram link to Bolton.
I visit hospitals a lot, and sometimes have to stay in. My relatives and friends will have to pay to visit me!
How will the charging people know if I go in for treatment. And OK I have a blue badge, but will I get chased for money anyway? You know what Councils are like.
80% finished - who decides what 80% is?
It'll shoot up in price once it's in - you watch! Just look at the London Charge which has gone up way above inflation, and the M6 Toll road similarly.
I don't trust New Labour as far as I can chuck them. (I could tell you why sometime.... ) This looks to me like a bribe or even bullying. Typical New Labour. Expecting us to pay again for what we've already paid for more than once.
What about people who live inside the first ring?
Cheers and VOTE NO,
Steve Pendlebury
That's what Stagecoach are doing anyway - I sometimes travel in from Didsbury (where some of my family live) to the city centre and can see how they're raping people.
I would vote no. I live near Warrington but go to Manchester for family reasons, United games, the Christmas markets, and occasionally shopping, and see that public transport is where the improvement is needed. If I'm in Didsbury village centre, you see where they've had the extended Metrolink route foundations for years, but they've done nothing. And not enough Metrolink services or carriages were set up when the service started in 1992, which explains how cramped they are to breaking point on matchday and the delays I've had on the service for all three United games I've got to this season. And no doubt will get for the Middlesbrough game next month.
Instead of doing improvement to public transport and helping out a congested city, Labour are bullying Manchester into voting yes, or not getting the funding.
now the tram line/works is fast running out of money the elected ruling scum on edinburgh council are hell bent on robbing other councils transport allocations in order to continue to fund the bloody donald asshole dewar memorial tramline, the poor folk in the borders may not see their waverly line reopened,
trust me if it goes to a no vote manchester's cuntcillors will use every trick to hurt and punnish you all, it will also try to get other areas transport special projects funding allocated to them,
edinburgh is in a hell of a mess, don't allow your cuntcillors to do the same to manchester,
You'll be surprised, I am a user of public transport in Greater Manchester, and I have voted no.
It will do a great deal of damage to the economy of the area, which will probably still be recovering in 2013.
And the so-called improvements won't help me in any way around the areas I use public transport.
I think there is a lot of stuff the Yes campaign are hiding, so even though you would think I would gain from this, I think not.
I read that in the Urmston Messenger today. 31 years to pay it back. What a con.
Despite this:
Another potential alternative which has been ruled out is increasing council tax. To match the investment TIF will deliver council tax would have to increase significantly. It would be 16% higher for the next 25 years. On a Band D home paying £1,344 at today’s prices this would equate to a rise of about £215 per year.
from
http://www.gmfuturetransport.co.uk/FAQ/PressReleases/TIFonlyoptionfortransportfunding.aspx
So who knows. End of the day I have voted yes because I think it is the best option but i respect peoples right to vote no. (and sadly I think the no's will win)
Exactly... I can't even see how the improvements even come close to the amount being spent. Its the all or nothing attitude that grates me most.
Im in the same situation.... don't own a car and still voting no.
The proposals will benefit me and should I get a car would travel against the charge so im not going to lose if yes wins.
However im voting NO and would hate this to come in as I have first hand experience of GMPTE/stagecoach on a daily basis. I know just how incompetent they are with an underlying attitude that just couldn't care less... this can't be changed however much you spend.
I don't trust them with the money and don't trust them not to waste it and I don't like all the self created industry that comes with it - all these unelected groups/quangos wanting a slice of the pie sticking their snouts in the trough.
All this £3bn investment is bollocks too... we're getting £1.55bn from the TIF and a £1.2bn loan, less the £318m set up for the charging
That leaves just £1.2bn investment with a loan of £1.55bn that will effectively turn into many billions over the 30 years it takes to pay off
This will leave a huge shortfall in repayment coming from council taxes and no investment 5 or so years down the line when needed in public transport, as the coffers will be empty and theres no chance of the private companies spending the cash.
So we're back to square one, with a crap public transport service, the cretins at the council still running the show and a noose round our neck in the form of the congestion charge.
http://www.middletonguardian.co.uk/news/s/1082102_mps_personal_plea_to_readers__vote_no
Love it... splash out billions to private companies willy nilly all under the pretence that "Any improvement has got to be a good thing"
Brlliant, why not double the charge and up the waste of money to £6bn.... we'll get a few new bus shelters out of that - "But any improvement has got to be a good thing"
:rolleyes:
Also - and here's another point I hadn't thought of before - she said that she's still to find out why the original tram route went all the way to Eccles (no offence to the people living in Eccles, but it isn't exactly the shopping / financial heart of Manchester), whereas they didn't plan a connection to Manchester Airport which would have made more sense - at a time when not even a train would get you there.
She was a real eye-opener, very aware of and knowledgeable about local politics (not just of today). Let's just say that my vote has changed from undecided to "no".
Does anyone have any further information?
I remember Jeremy Vine asking Ken Livingston on the first day of the congestion charge, what happens if after spending all this money it isn't a success, Ken said, it would be.... :rolleyes:
Traffic congestion is just a symptom of the real problem, the real problem is the absolute need to travel everywhere by vehicle over distances that just keep getting longer and longer, mostly due to government policies.
It's funny how the social problems we are currently experiencing in this country are actually not being dealt with at all, just the symptoms are being "fixed" with lashings of cash. Of course they are not being fixed at all and very soon make a return.
It will take an exceptional leader to really change things for the better since a "sea-change" in the way we live is needed, local services, local jobs, the end of mega-billion-pound spending on transport(!!!) when the solution is less movement not more.
Yeah, that's the same spin they put on it when 'selling' the idea around the world!
Doesn't quite work out like that in practice. For a start, if it is effective then people will stop coming into town (and therefore paying) so you get no more revenue. Bet you'll find that certain transport projects that would have been funded 'normally' will now rely on this money instead and be cut back, or axed.
There's a solution and that's running it like London with one organisation creating all of the routes and then allowing private operators to run them under licence. The buses look the same, timetabling is sorted out properly and ticketing is standardised.
It's just that the council doesn't need to actually run them.
The Department for Transport set the timetable, work out the rolling stock requirements and even future expansion. In this case, the TOC has very little say - and prices things around what extras they'll do (refurbish trains, stations etc). First tried to solve its woes on the Great Western route by buying its own trains!!
Haven't read the whole thread, just skimmed a few posts.
If you people are seriously bothered get mithering your local MP and councillors.
If there's an organised anti-congestion charge campaign get them on to it.
Get yourselves some sort of TFL like authority.
A little more Carrot instead of stick, that said if the congestion problems are really bad, you'll probably need the stick (congestion charge) eventually.
TFL collects the money and Tenders out the routes and sets the timetables, age of stock etc.
Then you can have the profitable routes paying for the routes that don't make money.